Knight of the Laughing Tree Theory

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Crona said:

I agree RLJ is not dependent on KOLT for me and I find Bran’s possible involvement more intriguing 

If we are going to discuss it, we could start here:

Quote

GEORGE R. R. MARTIN: It’s an obscenity to go into somebody’s mind. So Bran may be responsible for Hodor’s simplicity, due to going into his mind so powerfully that it rippled back through time.  The explanation of Bran’s powers, the whole question of time and causality—can we affect the past? Is time a river you can only sail one way or an ocean that can be affected wherever you drop into it? These are issues I want to explore in the book, but it’s harder to explain in a show. I thought they executed it very well, but there are going to be differences in the book. They did it very physical—“hold the door” with Hodor’s strength. In the book, Hodor has stolen one of the old swords from the crypt. Bran has been warging into Hodor and practicing with his body, because Bran had been trained in swordplay. So telling Hodor to “hold the door” is more like “hold this pass”—defend it when enemies are coming—and Hodor is fighting and killing them. A little different, but same idea.

This was recently revealed in the book "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon".  What do you think GRRM means by time and causality because he has just told us he's experimenting with it in the story?  Keeping in mind that he won't tell you anything specifically, but he will show you.  Is there any reason to think that his experiments in time and causality are limited to Hodor?  

[Macgregor of the North]

44 minutes ago, Crona said:

She is the one that told of the prophecy that resulted in Aerys and Rhaella’s marriage and was present at Summerhall.  But frankly I don’t see her coming back to the story.  I guess Rhaegar could have met her or not. We don’t know what she would say, so I don’t speculate on it. 

So if we agree the GOHH Arya meets was Jenny of Oldstone’s woods witch friend, although I’m quite sure it’s now universally accepted as canon, then you know she was at Summerhall and gorged on grief there, as per her own words. 

Tell me, have you anything against her and Rhaegar meeting at Summerhall? Doesn’t it seem glaringly obvious, as she’s a huge, HUGE part of TPTWP prophecy narrative in the story, that her and Rhaegar would cross paths there. I mean, surely Rhaegar going there with his harp was what produced the song “Jenny of Oldstones, with Flowers in her hair” and it was because of the GOHH telling him the story of Summerhall, and therefore also telling him that he was believed to be the PTWP.

This is massive, clearly. Why wouldn’t we speculate on it to be honest? We know she gives extremely vivid, yet accurate dream visions. Hard to decipher, but accurate. She always freely gives her visions for Jenny’s song. If Rhaegar wrote it, he has free vision tokens for life. 
 

Possible visions of Wolf-maids and Laughing tree shields? No? 
 

I probably won’t get you on-side with it to be honest, but you should really open your mind to it all, without viewing Howland as the KotLT, even if just for a time. Think how it all adds up and what it means when you think of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Side note: Rhaegar ends up back in the Riverlands. We know the GOHH moved there. I think they met again; one last vision before he sees Lyanna to be certain he’s making the right choice.

And also, there is parallel with Rhaegar and Prince Duncan Targaryen who found Jenny in the Riverlands and chose her, plunging his house into chaos. Wild Jenny, with the blood of the first men in her veins, like Lyanna.

Jenny was the GOHH close friend. This all ties together… I can’t be the only one on this thread that sees it surely.

I’ll stop rambling now. It’s a habit, sorry.

[Crona]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If we are going to discuss it, we could start here:

This was recently revealed in the book "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon".  What do you think GRRM means by time and causality because he has just told us he's experimenting with it in the story?   Is there any reason to think that his experiments in time and causality are limited to Hodor?  

I do like this quote, as for your question, I think GRRM is definitely going to explore some sort of causality with the powers Bran has. I am not sure how far his powers will go, but as far as causality:

"Bran may be responsible for Hodor’s simplicity, due to going into his mind so powerfully that it rippled back through time."

I think this would count as Bran's powers of entering Hodor's mind causing a causality (rippled through time/fried him).  So there is an issue that Bran could cripple someone by skinchanging, which I think may not be limited to just Hodor. I did say in my OP that the second person could be Howland. But as pointed out to me Bran has not shown this ability to skinchange someone that is not Hodor. While I do think his powers would expand and Howland may be accepting as the host, its yet to be determined. But it would also explain why Howland is not seen from Greywater Watch (Perhaps he's crippled?). And he understood Jojen green dreams. 

Whenever Bran enters Hodor, he doesn't mean to harm him but he knows it is to some extent causing harm. I think when he sees the damage he causes to Hodor, that will make him hesitant to skinchange again. It is considered - an abomination for a reason. Although another issue could be, if Bran's dies or gets lost in the host's mind while skinchanging he could get stuck in the body. 

can we affect the past? Is time a river you can only sail one way or an ocean that can be affected wherever you drop into it?

I think the river would be the present (not the weirwoods) and the ocean is the weirwood. In the weirwood he can affect wherever he appears and this could be present or past (maybe future too?). In the present (river) this may appear to be in the past. Its quite unique but I imagine GRRM would know how to explain it in the books. 

 

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If we are going to discuss it, we could start here:

This was recently revealed in the book "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon".  What do you think GRRM means by time and causality because he has just told us he's experimenting with it in the story?  Keeping in mind that he won't tell you anything specifically, but he will show you.  Is there any reason to think that his experiments in time and causality are limited to Hodor?  

Isn’t it a thumbs down for him skinchanging Howland in the “past” so effortlessly and without consequence, as it’s basically confirmed here how Bran will break Hodor’s mind and be the cause of his condition in “present” time like the adaptation showed. This shows that it’s a bad idea with grave consequences. 

And also ladies, GRRM clearly says in that passage that Bran has been skinchanging Hodor and practising swordplay because he has been trained in swordplay. 
 

Is there any mention EVER, that Bran was trained in jousting…? Or any of Ned’s lot? We know Howland wasn’t.

So……….?

How could Bran skinchange Howland in the past and do those actions at Harrenhal. 
Geez, this thread just got hot again!!!!

[Macgregor of the North]

Bear in mind, after the tourney, Howland went on to play his part in the war and also father two children with no apparent issues. 

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Crona said:

I think the river would be the present (not the weirwoods) and the ocean is the weirwood. In the weirwood he can affect wherever he appears and this could be present or past (maybe future too?). In the present (river) this may appear to be in the past. Its quite unique but I imagine GRRM would know how to explain it in the books. 

I think we should look at Hodor since we are being pointed in that direction.  Is there anything that resembles holding the door/holding the pass.  The answer is yes.  This happens when they are attacked by wights in the pass before they reach the 'door' to BR's cave.  I won't pull up all the text but to summarize all is almost lost and Bran hears Hodor whimper.  In an instant he is in Hodor's mind and Hodor is supercharged.  He holds the pass until all are safe in the cave. 

This is very different from Bran invading Hodor's mind forcefully ar Queenscrown.  It's different because Hodor pleads for Bran's help, invites Bran in and Bran lends Hodor his power.  

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And also ladies, GRRM clearly says in that passage that Bran has been skinchanging Hodor and practising swordplay because he has been trained in swordplay.

This would to make it easier to slip into Hodor's mind as Hodor becomes less afraid.  Who does the training in swordplay benefit?  Bran or Hodor? 

[Crona]

9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Tell me, have you anything against her and Rhaegar meeting at Summerhall? Doesn’t it seem glaringly obvious, as she’s a huge, HUGE part of TPTWP prophecy narrative in the story, that her and Rhaegar would cross paths there. I mean, surely Rhaegar going there with his harp was what produced the song “Jenny of Oldstones, with Flowers in her hair” and it was because of the GOHH telling him the story of Summerhall, and therefore also telling him that he was believed to be the PTWP.

 

Well I don't think the Targs had put a GPS tracker on her. Rhaegar would need to have found her somewhere in the Riverlands I think? I don't seem to recall that she visited Summerhall after the incident. She seems mostly to be in grief from Jenny, I doubt she cares about the The Prince that was Promised anymore since Jenny is gone. I think you are putting too much emphasis on prophecies, we already what the prophecy says, and we know what she said about the prophecy. Maybe he did talk to her and she told him what really happened at Summerhall but I am not going to assume that she told him anything else. Its just odd to me, why would I want to make up the dialogue? GRRM can say it himself. I just feel like I am writing his story. 

15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

This is massive, clearly. Why wouldn’t we speculate on it to be honest? We know she gives extremely vivid, yet accurate dream visions. Hard to decipher, but accurate. She always freely gives her visions for Jenny’s song. If Rhaegar wrote it, he has free vision tokens for life. 
 

 

I guess I am not a imaginative person? I just don't know what she would tell him or why I should be speculating of what she said. 

18 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

Possible visions of Wolf-maids and Laughing tree shields? No? 
 

 

Seems pretty cringey to me lol

19 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

I probably won’t get you on-side with it to be honest, but you should really open your mind to it all, without viewing Howland as the KotLT, even if just for a time. Think how it all adds up and what it means when you think of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

I actually have a very open mind, that's how I got to Howland, btw I am not saying its correct. It could be wrong.

 

21 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Side note: Rhaegar ends up back in the Riverlands. We know the GOHH moved there. I think they met again; one last vision before he sees Lyanna to be certain he’s making the right choice.

 

He does go to the Riverlands, and he could have met her or not. I don't see why I should be filling in the holes here. It makes me feel like I am doing all the work for the Author. 

26 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

And also, there is parallel with Rhaegar and Prince Duncan Targaryen who found Jenny in the Riverlands and chose her, plunging his house into chaos. Wild Jenny, with the blood of the first men in her veins, like Lyanna.

Jenny was the GOHH close friend. This all ties together… I can’t be the only one on this thread that sees it surely.

 

I do think there is a parallel between Jenny/Lyanna and Rhaegar/Duncan mostly for their actions but it doesn't need to include the woods witch. 

28 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 

I’ll stop rambling now. It’s a habit, sorry.

No need to apologize, you have done nothing wrong 

[Crona]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think we should look at Hodor since we are being pointed in that direction.  Is there anything that resembles holding the door/holding the pass.  The answer is yes.  This happens when they are attacked by wights in the pass before they reach the 'door' to BR's cave.  I won't pull up all the text but to summarize all is almost lost and Bran hears Hodor whimper.  In an instant he is in Hodor's mind and Hodor is supercharged.  He holds the pass until all are safe in the cave. 

This is very different from Bran invading Hodor's mind forcefully ar Queenscrown.  It's different because Hodor pleads for Bran's help, invites Bran in and Bran lends Hodor his power.  

I believe this is the quote:

Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Crona said:

While I do think his powers would expand and Howland may be accepting as the host, its yet to be determined.

I think this is key.  What sort of training did Howland receive from the green men?  Is Howland an apprentice green man?  I think one has to be accepting as a host for the gods to lend you their powers.  

[LynnS]

Just now, Crona said:

I believe this is the quote:

Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

It's quite powerful and nowhere is Hodor cringing in fear.  So i think Hodor's sword training made it easier for Hodor to accept Bran and he invites Bran in on this occasion.  Bran does not force himself on Hodor this time. 

[Crona]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's quite powerful and nowhere is Hodor cringing in fear.  So i think Hodor's sword training made it easier for Hodor to accept Bran and he invites Bran in on this occasion.  Bran does not force himself on Hodor this time. 

So when Hodor is whimpering still, is he just afraid of the wrights?

Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still,

[LynnS]

So then are we shown any other instances of time and causality that don't involve Hodor?  Can Bran drop himself into the ocean at any point in time?  The answer is yes.  We see it with Tree-Bran encountering Ghost-Jon at the Skirling Pass.  The fact that he appears as a weirwood sapling growing before Jon's eyes should tell us that something about time is askew.  

This is a manifestation of Bran after he is wed to the tree and has surpassed the limitations of only seeing through the eyes of the weirwood tree.  This occurs when Bran has not yet crossed the Wall and this memory of the future ripples back to him in a dream while still in the crypts of Winterfell.  We know it's not Bran interacting with Jon from the crypts because he is still afraid of the dark in the Crypts, but no longer afraid at the Skirling Pass.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

 

 

[Mourning Star]

I think it's an interesting idea, Bran taking control of Howland back in the year of the false spring... but I don't think it makes total sense. Setting aside whether a willing host could accept Bran's control without ending up like Hodor or Thistle, if he really did do that, why would Jojen expect Bran to have heard the story before?

"There was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one."
"Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."

This line has always indicated to me that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was a member of Bran's family, or at minimum familiar to Ned. Otherwise, why would there be an expectation that he heard about it? Obviously, it turns out Ned doesn't like talking about Lyanna, and so I read this as another clue which points to her.

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Crona said:

So when Hodor is whimpering still, is he just afraid of the wrights?

Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still,

Oh I missed that but certainly.

[LynnS]

Just now, Mourning Star said:

I think it's an interesting idea, Bran taking control of Howland back in the year of the false spring... but I don't think it makes total sense. Setting aside whether a willing host could accept Bran's control without ending up like Hodor or Thistle, if he really did do that, why would Jojen expect Bran to have heard the story before?

"There was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one."
"Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."

This line has always indicated to me that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was a member of Bran's family, or at minimum familiar to Ned. Otherwise, why would there be an expectation that he heard about it? Obviously, it turns out Ned doesn't like talking about Lyanna, and so I read this as another clue which points to her.

Well if you' e prepared for it or you know the magic of your people, specifically 'talking to trees'; then it's not quite the same as being ambushed by someone like Varamyr for example, who has no intention of relinquishing your body.  Bran and Hodor love and trust each other and what happened to cripple Hodor's mind was accidental.  

[Mourning Star]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well if you' e prepared for it or you know the magic of your people, specifically 'talking to trees'; then it's not quite the same as being ambushed by someone like Varamyr for example, who has no intention of relinquishing your body.  Bran and Hodor love and trust each other and what happened to cripple Hodor's mind was accidental.  

I think it's an interesting idea... I just don't know we really have much evidence pointing either way to support or contradict such an idea because we don't have many examples of mind control. Besides Bran/Hodor, Varamyr is about all we've been given to work with. I was just trying to take a step back and look at the question from a different angle.

[LynnS]

So we know that Bran can communicate with Jon.  We've also been shown that he can communicate with Theon or is on the verge of doing so.  It will be interesting to see where this goes.  There is some interesting speculation that Theon could become Bran's prophet.

But we do know there are limitations.  Bran cannot break through to Ned.  BR tells him he can't speak to the dead and the most that Ned will ever hear is the rustling of leaves.

[LynnS]

Theon's encounter with Bran as the Winterfell Weirwood is also interesting because Theon sees the face of the laughing in his mind.  This is not how the tree normally looks.  This is a direct link to the device of Tree Knight's shield.  

So we've been shown some evidence that Bran can drop himself into the ocean at a time of his choosing, that he can communicate with some people and he can lend his power, if invited.

So if the choice is Howland or Lyanna, it must be Howland since Lyanna is dead in Bran's timeline while Howland is not.

Unless you don't accept that Bran was there at all.  But I think there is one more bit of evidence and that is the anomaly of the false spring itself.  I think that has Bran written all over it, especially if he is dreaming of spring.

[Crona]

11 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I think it's an interesting idea, Bran taking control of Howland back in the year of the false spring... but I don't think it makes total sense. Setting aside whether a willing host could accept Bran's control without ending up like Hodor or Thistle, if he really did do that, why would Jojen expect Bran to have heard the story before?

"There was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one."
"Or not." Jojen's face was dappled with green shadows. "Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I'm sure."

This line has always indicated to me that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was a member of Bran's family, or at minimum familiar to Ned. Otherwise, why would there be an expectation that he heard about it? Obviously, it turns out Ned doesn't like talking about Lyanna, and so I read this as another clue which points to her.

Well the interesting part is in the passage, it appears Meera believes the KOLT is her father (might have been a crannogman) but Jojen says maybe not, then assumes Bran would know the story, I believe Jojen thinks its Bran's family. But they both do not know the identity and Howland is holding back the identity. There is also another part that Ned doesn't speak of, its when Howland Reed saves him from Arthur, he stops speaking of it. I know that Ned was holding back in speaking of Lyanna to protect Jon. But, I don't see how concealing the KOLT identify (if its Lyanna) would matter cause Rhaegar and Lyanna had vanished together after Harrenhal.