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Knight of the Laughing Tree Theory


Crona
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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yah, I don't think Hodor is going to die holding the door the way it was portrayed in the show.  It actually cracked me up that the cave had a door in the first place. This cannot be when Walder becomes Hodor.  I do think that happened on the day Bran was born.  Martin says the meaning is closer to hold the pass.

 

I hope the time travel in the books makes more sense in the books. Thinking about how future Hodor's fate affected present Walder makes my head hurt.

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30 minutes ago, Crona said:

It’s ok I just wanted to share my idea. :)

While I dont think there was any skinchanging involved in the knight of the laughing tree episode, I find it hard to believe that Lyanna would be capable of unhorsing grown men or even boys her age. We know she was a good horse rider, but jousting has to require training beyond riding a horse.

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1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

I hope the time travel in the books makes more sense in the books. Thinking about how future Hodor's fate affected present Walder makes my head hurt.

I don't think of it as time travel in the same way we are used to as in time lords/tardis.  The business with Ghost-Jon and Tree-Bran really threw people for a loop as well.  Also the idea that Bran can have an effect in the past is confusing.  I don't think we'll see a lot of it for that reason.  The incident with the tree knight is important because it isn't Lyanna who is at fault for the events that follow.  It's Bran who is responsible.

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17 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

While I dont think there was any skinchanging involved in the knight of the laughing tree episode, I find it hard to believe that Lyanna would be capable of unhorsing grown men or even boys her age. We know she was a good horse rider, but jousting has to require training beyond riding a horse.

I have been trying to explain the difference between Bran skinchanging Hodor without consent and what happened with Howland.  He was training with the green men on the Isle of Faces for two years before the false springs.  They are the warriors who guard and protect the place but so far we don't know anything about them.  Apparently we will know more in the next book.  My guess is that they open their minds to the gods and allow them to enter and receive the power of the gods.  The gods strengthen their arms or lend their powers to the green men.  That would make a formidable fighting force.  That's what I think happened with Howland at the tourney.  He prayed to the gods for their help and received it.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran shook his head. The day was growing old by then, and long shadows were creeping down the mountainsides to send black fingers through the pines. If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

 

I think we are not paying enough attention to what Bran says.

Edited by LynnS
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17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have been trying to explain the difference between Bran skinchanging Hodor without consent and what happened with Howland.  He was training with the green men on the Isle of Faces for two years before the false springs.  They are the warriors who guard and protect the place but so far we don't know anything about them.  Apparently we will know more in the next book.  My guess is that they open their minds to the gods and allow them to enter and receive the power of the gods.  The gods strengthen their arms or lend their powers to the green men.  That would make a formidable fighting force.  That's what I think happened with Howland at the tourney.  He prayed to the gods for their help and received it.

Lets say thats what happened and it was Howland that was the KoLT. But Bran isn't born in this timeline and future Bran cannot affect the past (ink is dry). So how is Bran responsible for any of the events?

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5 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Lets say thats what happened and it was Howland that was the KoLT. But Bran isn't born in this timeline and future Bran cannot affect the past (ink is dry). So how is Bran responsible for any of the events?

He can't talk to people who are dead.  Howland is alive in Bran's timeline.  He doesn't change the past, he was there, 

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11 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

But Bran wasn't alive during the KotLT events.

When he is wed to the tree he unchained from time. He can go anywhere in the past. But he can only interact with people who are alive while Bran is alive.  That's what I mean by Bran's timeline.  Howland is still alive.

Let me put it to you this way; if Bran does not show up as the Tree Knight he would be changing the past.  And now that he has heard the story from Jojen and Meera, I don't think he will be able to resist the temptation.   

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When he is wed to the tree he unchained from time. He can go anywhere in the past. But he can only interact with people who are alive while Bran is alive.  That's what I mean by Bran's timeline.  Howland is still alive.

Interesting. I'm not sure I find it very likely, but interesting indeed. 

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

LOL! Well OK. As long as it's interesting.

The reason I say its not likely is because Bloodraven was the three eyed crow who is training Bran. Bloodraven should also be able affect people he was alive with and we don't see any indication he did. 

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30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL! Well OK. As long as it's interesting.

I did think of one more thing, what if it’s sort of a rebirth like Azor Ahai. There were multiple Brandon Starks in the past..what if one was in the weirwoods facilitating his rebirth? Although I like your explanation better.

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35 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

The reason I say its not likely is because Bloodraven was the three eyed crow who is training Bran. Bloodraven should also be able affect people he was alive with and we don't see any indication he did. 

Well not all Gseers are the same.  Some are greater than others according to Jojen who talks about the greatest of them.  Bran may surpass BR and become the greatest of them all.

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8 minutes ago, Crona said:

I did think of one more thing, what if it’s sort of a rebirth like Azor Ahai. There were multiple Brandon Starks in the past..what if one was in the weirwoods facilitating his rebirth? Although I like your explanation better.

I'm not really sure how this would apply to Bran but he is born a new god when he is wed to the tree.  When he starts to develop his powers and has the ways and means to be the Tree Knight, he will not resist the temptation.  His one day of fun has a cost in unintended consequences.  The Tree Knight is the flash point for all the grief that follows.  He won't understand that at first.  But when he does, the weight of his sins will begin to pile up.

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48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not really sure how this would apply to Bran but he is born a new god when he is wed to the tree.  When he starts to develop his powers and has the ways and means to be the Tree Knight, he will not resist the temptation.  His one day of fun has a cost in unintended consequences.  The Tree Knight is the flash point for all the grief that follows.  He won't understand that at first.  But when he does, the weight of his sins will begin to pile up.

Ok that explanation is making more sense now lol

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I don't buy Lyanna or Howland, or Bran giving Howland strength. I think the Brienne chapter defeating Loras is proof to the point. 

If Loras is Lyanna, and skill and precision trump size and strength. Then Lyanna loses as Brienne is nearly defeated, charges Loras and uses her size and strength to disarm him.

Brienne on the other hand, is proof that a woman like Lyanna could not defeat the 3 knights likely on her own with out cheating as Loras did with the horse in heat to win against the Mountain.

In both cases, the smaller person can't win with out cheating. 

So, unless Howland some how got more strength from Bran, it wasn't Howland either. Bran doesn't seem to give Hodor more strength. Just allows Bran to use his natural strength. 

This all happens before we even hear about the Knight also. So we are given clear examples early on, on the unlikely hood of the Knight being Lyanna, or Howland.

Eddard Stark as the Knight is more believable imo. And im not suggesting it was Ned. The examples though don't support Lyanna or Howland.

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