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Knight of the Laughing Tree Theory


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20 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I don't buy Lyanna or Howland, or Bran giving Howland strength. I think the Brienne chapter defeating Loras is proof to the point. 

If Loras is Lyanna, and skill and precision trump size and strength. Then Lyanna loses as Brienne is nearly defeated, charges Loras and uses her size and strength to disarm him.

Brienne on the other hand, is proof that a woman like Lyanna could not defeat the 3 knights likely on her own with out cheating as Loras did with the horse in heat to win against the Mountain.

In both cases, the smaller person can't win with out cheating. 

So, unless Howland some how got more strength from Bran, it wasn't Howland either. Bran doesn't seem to give Hodor more strength. Just allows Bran to use his natural strength. 

This all happens before we even hear about the Knight also. So we are given clear examples early on, on the unlikely hood of the Knight being Lyanna, or Howland.

Eddard Stark as the Knight is more believable imo. And im not suggesting it was Ned. The examples though don't support Lyanna or Howland.

Brienne defeated Loras in a melee, not jousting. And even though Loras had cheated in his jousting with the Mountain, he was still a teenager who at edge of fifteen had defeated, jousting, a grown man like Jaime Lannister in a tourney the year before and others men in the Hand's tourney.

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2 minutes ago, Odej said:

Brienne defeated Loras in a melee, not jousting. And even though Loras had cheated in his jousting with the Mountain, he was still a teenager who at edge of fifteen had defeated, jousting, a grown man like Jaime Lannister in a tourney the year before and others men in the Hand's tourney.

Loras isn't small compared to Jamie

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14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Loras isn't small compared to Jamie

I would say he is. Maybe not in height, but in weight. Loras is described as being thin and slender whereas Jaime is muscle. But if there is doubt about Jaime, I don't think there can be about Ser Hoster Frey, who was also defeated by Loras. Ser Hoster inherited the Crakehall physique and is described as a husky man with a jut of jaw and arms thick with muscle.

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33 minutes ago, Odej said:

I would say he is. Maybe not in height, but in weight. Loras is described as being thin and slender whereas Jaime is muscle. But if there is doubt about Jaime, I don't think there can be about Ser Hoster Frey, who was also defeated by Loras. Ser Hoster inherited the Crakehall physique and is described as a husky man with a jut of jaw and arms thick with muscle.

Well its definitely a better example imo and better proves Loras's prowess at arms. Though with Loras cheating against the Mountain, it throws shade at his fighting else where. Implying he is more of the caliber of Bron rather than a more honorable fighter like Eddard or Jamie (Who let Eddard go after the leg break cause it wouldn't be an honorable kill).

Its like if you watched a boxer cheat and win. You would always question that fighter again. Like Antonio Margarito for example.

Plus, even if Lyanna was the same size and same prowess as Loras. Loras will still have more upper body strength than Lyanna would.

This doesn't fully eliminate Lyanna mind you, but it stacks the deck against her and makes it less probable imo. 

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11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This doesn't fully eliminate Lyanna mind you, but it stacks the deck against her and makes it less probable imo. 

I agree.

And Brienne has trained at fighting and jousting and is significantly larger than most women, which Lyanna is not, which is why I think she is unlikely to the KotLT.

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Ok, doing some tugging at this House Strong thing, and since it's actually relevant. Ill bring it up here real quick.

So Stark in German, means Strong.

The Idea is that House Strong is an old line of House Stark in the Riverlands as they traveled North.

Lucamor Strong may be the father of Baelon and maybe even Alyssa and some of the other Targaryen children of Alysanne.

With Lucamor also being linked to Dunk the Lunk, and Brienne. 

Lucamor also had 16 bastards hidden at Harrenhal, Stormlands, and Crownlands. Meaning other possible mixing with House Targaryen.

"the seed is Strong"

 

This is either evidence for or against Lyanna and Rhaegar hooking up. As, if the Targaryen's are already blood of House Stark, then, that might be why they lost the Dragons.

Some may take this as affirmation as Harrenhal is where the Tourney took place or some other thing. My issue is, if House Targaryen is already mixed with House Stark, then it suggest to me that mixing with House Stark is not good and does not bring any Prince that was Promised or the rebirth of Dragons.

I will do a separate thread to discuss this more in depth. Though its worth mentioning here real quick and let others in on the idea to prep for a further discussion in more depth. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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15 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree.

And Brienne has trained at fighting and jousting and is significantly larger than most women, which Lyanna is not, which is why I think she is unlikely to the KotLT.

That reason, and a few others im trying to bring up to counter the idea of Rhaegar and Lyanna

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31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh Geez.  That's an interesting connection.

It certainly was. They make more links between House Stark and House Strong in their video. I had to google it to check but yea Stark means Strong in German. Which really changes the line "the Seed is Strong". Which could mean the Targaryen seed is Strong also, as it was said by Jon Arryn while investigating Targaryen bloodlines. Ned just thought he was looking up Lannister connections, because Ned made a Lannister connection himself. 

Alysanne cheating on Jaehaerys though is something I thought before Fire and Blood came out, but got effected by changes in that book. (Elio though asked GRRM about the line in TWOAIF that Jaehaerys told his grandkids he fought at the Wall with Dragons. Then Fire and Blood came out and the history of Jaehaerys was retconned along with his kids). Led me of her trail for a while till now.

Alysanne having kids with Lucamore would explain her harshness against Lucamore, being one of his mistresses. He is gelded just before her 12th kid is born too. Leaving Gael the Winter Child as the only child not possibly of Lucamore's. With House Strong maybe being Starks. Brings back into play a lot of my older theories. Alysanne also bathes naked Jonquils pool and visits the wall. 

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Ryam was considered the greatest knight of his day,[6] accomplished at sword and lance.[7] During the tourney celebrating Jaehaerys's tenth year of coronation, young Ryam unhorsed Ser Ronnal Baratheon, Arthor Oakheart, Lord Simon Dondarrion, and Ser Harys Hogg, as well as Ser Lorence Roxton and Ser Lucamore Strong of the Kingsguard. Ryam crowned Queen Alysanne Targaryen as the tourney's queen of love and beauty.[8]

And once again, she is Queen of Love and Beauty and not taken by who won her, Ryam. No, she is taken by Lucamore Strong of the K.G. (The Soiled Knight). 

So, bathing naked in Jonquils pool, The Queen of Love and Beauty getting a rose, the Night's Watch, and one account of Jaehaerys fighting at the Wall against presumably the King Beyond the Wall.

 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Viserys I

On the third day of the third moon of 129 AC, while entertaining Jaehaerys and Jaehaera from his bed with a tale of their great-great-grandsire and his queen battling giants, mammoths, and wildlings beyond the Wall, the king grew tired. He sent his grandchildren away when the tale was done and fell into a sleep from which he never awoke. He had ruled for six-and-twenty years, reigning over the most prosperous era in the history of the Seven Kingdoms but seeding within it the disastrous decline of his house and the death of the last of the dragons.

 

 
 
With Gael the Winter Child being the 13th child of Alysanne and only one not likely that of Lucamore's. 
Plus Queen's Crown makes me thinking of Crowning, a birthing term. I still suspect Gael maybe a Stark, but actually of House Stark, not House Strong. Alysanne seems to have been trying to replicate the Azor Ahai legend.
 
Edit- Jaehaerys is who built the King's Road when Stark's were "Lords" as both are mentioned in the legend of Bael the Bard.
 
Edited by AlaskanSandman
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I shouldn't say that GRRM retconned things, as he simply gave an alternate take on the history of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. Twoiaf and Blood of the Dragon being written in two different times even. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's very interesting.  I'll wait for your OP.  :)

Ill have to do a long one so it might be hard to bear through for some (Video's really are easier to get through). Though its something gnawing at me then that seems confirmed in a way elsewise. The main point of my old thread was that the Blood of House Stark mixing with Alysanne is what killed the dragons. This new evidence suggest the same exact thing, but with Strong's and possibly Starks. 

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Mance as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, would thus be no true Knight. A motley of armor. He is Florian the Fool and Lyanna is Jonquil. Jonquil being a flower.

Mance and the Night's watch being tied to the Legend going back to Maris, Bael possibly/more than likely, and even Alysanne (Who may have been when Bael was actually), seems important to things. Though a lot of other stuff does too that I think is driving events. Like the slavery beyond the walls from pirates on the step stones. There is also clues in naming conventions like Maege Mormont's name implying a Targaryen/Valyrian in the Bloodline. Maege hooked up with Tormund, so it can't be from Tormund. Though they have people "kissed by fire" beyond the wall, like Ygritte.

I also have people working against me more than working with me trying to sort through the mess. Understandable though as many may just not see anyyyyy of the same things im seeing. Though these videos tell me some are seeing some of what I was, at least with Alysanne being a cheater and not "Good". Ill try my best as usual though :)

Edit- 

 

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George R. R. Martin has stated that "You might consider Alysanne as the Eleanor of Aquitaine of Westeros, and model her on Katherine Hepburn's portrayal of Eleanor in the film The Lion in Winter." Alysanne often wore a slimmer, more feminine version of her brother-husband's crown at court.[9]

 

I think this is an interesting comparison of Alysanne

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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Sooo. Mentioning Alysanne and Lucamore Strong. "The Seed is Strong" yadadada Brienne and Dunk the Lunk are tied to House Strong and such, and then a weird Idea hit me. Im not sure what it means but its worth pointing out.

Dunk's shield is that of a Tree with a shooting star over it. One that Brienne finds in one of her chapters among old things. (Knight of the Laughing Tree)

So Brienne was born in 280ac and is the youngest of 4. With Galladon, Arianne, and Alyanne being older than her. Every one of these is interesting, with Alysanne being the most obvious clue, as we tie her and House Strong to Brienne and Dunk.

So Galladon is the Perfect Knight who is given a magic sword by the Maid who fell for him (the Maiden is a star, so a metaphor of a falling star). He only draws the sword 3x and not once against a moral. Similar to the myth of Azor Ahai who has a magic sword forged 3x in water (An Other), a lion (Lannister), and then his wife Nissa Nissa who could be an immortal like Melisandre, or possibly Alys Rivers (We'll come back to her, a bastard of House Strong). This all with falling star's points to House Dayne. As if these nods were not enough, the Lord Even(Star) of Even(Fall) points to Starfall. The Home of House Dayne, who have a magical sword Dawn said to be forged from the Heart of a Dying Star.

Arianne is interesting cause it points to Arianne Martell and House Martell of Dorne. Which House Dayne is also in Dorne. I've pointed before to Arianne and her Soiled Knight Ary's Oakheart whose chapter is the 13th chapter of AFFC. With Ary's thinking about Lusty Lucamore Strong, and others who slept with their Queen. This chapter also points to a plotting K.G.

The next is "Naughty" Queen Alysanne who has a Tower named after her, "Queen's Crown" which Crowning is a birthing term. This Tower is in the North where House Stark rule. Whose name in German means "Strong".

The Starks and the Wildlings are the same blood as pointed out by Ygritte to Jon with the Bael the Bard story. With Mance appearing as Bael-Abel and being called Bael by Jon upon learning Mance was at Winterfell when Robert visited. With Mance being born on a Wildling, possibly at White Tree, and possibly by L.C. Qorgyle who had Mance attend him to Winterfell. Where Mance first saw, or checked up on Jon Snow.

Alysanne being who connects the Starks and Strongs to the Targaryens.

 

Speaking of Alys Rivers. She was wed to Aemon One Eye, who fought Daemon Targaryen at Harrenhal where Daemon carved 13 into a Weirwood in the Gods wood. Alys is seen bathing in a pool and wanting revenge, while Bran Stark has a vision of a woman bathing in a pool saying that her child will seek revenge.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

 

 
 
With a girl after wards kissing a Knight many believed to be Dunk and Old Nan. Leading to Hodor eventually. Who, along with Bran, on the 13th chapter of ADWD meet Bloodraven who was L.C. of the Night's Watch for 13 years. With the Night's King being the 13th L.C.
Edited by AlaskanSandman
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A Storm of Swords - Jaime IV

One day, he heard Urswyck say something about Harrenhal, and remembered that was to be their destination. That made him laugh aloud, and that made Timeon slash his face with a long thin whip. The cut bled, but beside his hand he scarcely felt it. "Why did you laugh?" the wench asked him that night, in a whisper.
"Harrenhal was where they gave me the white cloak," he whispered back. "Whent's great tourney. He wanted to show us all his big castle and his fine sons. I wanted to show them too. I was only fifteen, but no one could have beaten me that day. Aerys never let me joust." He laughed again. "He sent me away. But now I'm coming back."

 

 
 
Anybody ever consider Jamie as the Knight of the Laughing Tree? The Knight does appear after a young Jamie is told to leave. Meaning Jamie wouldn't want to be seen.  He could easily come up with a reason for his delay to K.L. and it may have been a move that would impress Rhaegar had Rhaegar discovered him. Rhaegar may be willing to forgive a young ambitious Jamie wanting to Joust. The One thing Jamie said Aerys wouldn't let him do, and that no one could defeat him that day. Like, how would Jamie know? Had he been Jousting to know he was unbeatable that day?
 

 

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

"Maybe he came from the Isle of Faces," said Bran. "Was he green?" In Old Nan's stories, the guardians had dark green skin and leaves instead of hair. Sometimes they had antlers too, but Bran didn't see how the mystery knight could have worn a helm if he had antlers. "I bet the old gods sent him."

 
 
"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."
"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"
It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

 

 
 
Then there is this
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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII
The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

 
The Lannisters possibly have Strong genes. With Lucamore Strong being a K.G. who competed and stole Alysanne's heart possibly, despite her being crowned by Ryam. Though Lucamore was sent to the Watch and Jamie has no connection to the Watch. Maybe an upset Jamie at the Feast, when told to go home, spoke to the Black Brother and considered joining the Watch before saying na. 
I never see Jamie considered for the Knight of the Laughing Tree and thought it was worth entertaining for a moment.
 
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1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

I vaguely remember a theory that the Freys sent Tywin Rob Stark's head which Qyburn then used to put atop Gregor's body.

I suspect that Qyburn is a certain person mentioned by Varys and that he is from Qaarth.

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4 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You'll have to remind me about Varys quote.  Was it when he and Illyrio were discussing the events in the cellar of the Red Keep?

Sorry that should have been a certain man.  It was when he was telling Tyrion how he was cut.  So somebody identifiable.

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

 

 

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