Danaerys is an Awful Hypocrite

[The Young Maester]

This is just the perfect title to blow this whole place up.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Between this thread and the thread about Ashara being a transgendered Barristan, I'm inclined to agree with this.

Ashara thread was made for having a bit of fun, while also showing that by putting a few quotes together, you can make any kind of outlandish nonsense and call it a theory, I thought it would be obvious, but here it goes.

This thread, on the other hand, is genuine. I actually came to this conclusion while searching for material to make another thread, which was a pro-dany one. Well, not exactly pro-dany but it was about people going too harsh on some characters, children, thinking and reaction as if they were adults, with the intention of whether this behaviour was caused by how old the actors that played them and their age being altered to be older.

@Jaenara Belarys This would be a response for  your question as well.

[frenin]

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

She constantly calls Ned, along with other rebels, usurper's dogs Even though both Barristan and Jorah, who is an exile and hates Ned because of it, say on different occasions what an Honorable man Eddard Stark is, Barristan even saying how he tried to save her life

This is not hypocrisy.

 

 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

She considers Eddard Stark a traitor, even though she knows her family did harm to Starks first.

She likely doesn't, or at least doesn't know the extent of the harm.

Btw, that doesn't change that Ned is legally a traitor.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

but she knows that Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped" Lyanna. 

She doesn't know that. She "knows" that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and Rhaegar took her because of that.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

He gives her truth, but it's a very guarded truth.

True, both Jorah and Barristan do this.

 

 

7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

keeping her tunnel vision for no reason whatsoever.

That's what indoctrination and plain hatred do to a person.

And Barristan and Jorah have not told her nearly enough to challenge her views anyway, especially Jorah who always tried to hide his part in the Robellion.

 

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

This is not hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy is, she goes against the Dothraki way by trying to prevent the rape of the "sheep women" and even "insults" the members of the khalasar by declaring they can marry the sheep women but considers the rebels traitors for rising against a king whose heir "kidnaps and rapes" highborn maids at will. She may or may not know the death of Lord Rickard's and Brandon  his companions, which included Elbert Arryn, a member of Jon Arryn's house and his heir,  she may not know he wanted the heads of Jon Arryn's wards from him but she knows that Rhaegar stole Lyanna as she herself states.

With these lack of information she may have a right to consider:

a) that Robert is a usurper as he took over the throne

b) Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully are traitors.

But she knows very well that it was her house who wronged by the "kidnap and rape", or "stealing" in her words, of the highborn lady Lyanna of the house Stark, who is Robert Baratheon's betrothed and Eddard Stark's sister.

Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully are of course not traitors as they were affected as well, but as I said, we were never shown that she know if and how they were affected.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

The hypocrisy is, she goes against the Dothraki way by trying to prevent the rape of the "sheep women" and even "insults" the members of the khalasar by declaring they can marry the sheep women but considers the rebels traitors for rising against a king whose heir "kidnaps and rapes" highborn maids at will. She may or may not know the death of Lord Rickard's and Brandon  his companions, which included Elbert Arryn, a member of Jon Arryn's house and his heir,  she may not know he wanted the heads of Jon Arryn's wards from him but she knows that Rhaegar stole Lyanna as she herself states.

I agree that Dany's "rescuing" of the Lhazarene women highlights some really selective reasoning on her part.

For me, though, the most egregious moment comes after Mirri Maz Duur makes it clear to Dany why she intervened so viciously: it was revenge, because Dany was guilty of atrocity. Dany was a conqueror, gathering slaves and resources for further conquest. The damage to the Lhazarene had already been done by the time Dany had stepped in, and Dany wasn't condeming the murder, desolation, and enslavement--just the rape. Dany's actions were ultimately hollow, even if they were sincerely felt. Mirri's actions against Drogo and Rhaego were certainly monstrous, but she was absolutely correct. But Dany has not even a moment acknowledging the truth of her words, then or later. She thinks of Eroeh, and the futility of her protection given her future murder--but not of the damage that had already been done for the sake of her crown.

Not only that, but Dany doesn't even kill Mirri in the heat of passion; nor does she give her a swift execution that is rationalized by some notion of justice. Her execution is premeditated, but it is cold revenge as excruciating blood sacrifice. Notes of Stannis, but to me closer to the calculated, seething rage of Tywin. 

I concede that, especially by the time of ADWD, when she has had ample experience of grabbing and holding power, Dany's reflections on Robert's Rebellion show some signs that she's not being as logical and reflective as she could be with respect to Robert and Ned. Indeed, her talk about Ned with Barristan ends abruptly because she thinks about Hazzea, and how she is now the mother of monsters--and she pushes away the thought, without closing the loop on Ned. We don't know everything that went through her head, and her later attempts to reign in her dragons and to make compromises for peace indicate that there was some attempt to atone for her oversteps.

But, especially after her final chapter, I think it's clear that Dany is going through this in a very piecemeal fashion in her head, not putting it all together for a coherent picture of what others have done, what she has done, and what it means for her vision of the world. She's thinking very selectively, reactively. In the short term, this can have some grave consequences as she embraces her role as conqueror once again.

Still, I do think that, by stories' end, Dany will have a more honest, comprehensive, view on her life story, including how her early life trauma was rooted more in her father's madness and cruelty than in Ned's rebellion against such injustice.

[KiloPop]

16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Ned Stark is one of Usurper’s dogs. The Stark family was plotting a marriage which would undermine Targaryen rule. Aerys had a right to stop them. Ned was old enough to know of his father and best friend’s plans, and did nothing to stop them.  I think Ned knew that Lyanna ran away on her own and yet, kept his mouth shut to protect the honor of the other dogs in his family. Truthfully, Lyanna broke her engagement, a dishonorable act, and ran away. Ned and his family hid this to protect their reputation and allowed Robert to believe that Lyanna was raped. For all we know, Lyanna went to bed willingly with Rhaegar, Mance,  Arthur, even her own brother Brandon.  Ned was hiding something to protect Lyanna’s and his family’s honor. So yes, Ned deserves to be disliked by Daenerys. 

Do you have any proof that the Starks were trying to undermine Targaryen rule and not simply trying to strengthen their position like the other kingdoms have for decades. What father wouldn't want their daughter to marry a Lord Paramount? Marrying Brandon to Catelyn secures an alliance to help the North with food with their southern neighbor. Everything you said is just your opinion and laughable and extremely biased. Blaming a girl of 14/15 for breaking an engagement and not saying anything about the married crown prince that had 2 children hahaha. It doesn't matter if Lyanna went willingly or not because Rhaegar as the crown prince knew better than to run away with the Warden of the North's daughter and his cousins betrothed. It all falls on his shoulders because of his station. Ned hid Lyanna's relationship with Rhaegar, a relationship that we don't know the full details of yet to protect his nephews life. I get why Daenerys hates Ned but Daenerys is a child that grew up on lies and has no clue it seems about the truth of her brothet and fathers actions.

[Corvo the Crow]

35 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I agree that Dany's "rescuing" of the Lhazarene women highlights some really selective reasoning on her part.

For me, though, the most egregious moment comes after Mirri Maz Duur makes it clear to Dany why she intervened so viciously: it was revenge, because Dany was guilty of atrocity. Dany was a conqueror, gathering slaves and resources for further conquest. The damage to the Lhazarene had already been done by the time Dany had stepped in, and Dany wasn't condeming the murder, desolation, and enslavement--just the rape. Dany's actions were ultimately hollow, even if they were sincerely felt. Mirri's actions against Drogo and Rhaego were certainly monstrous, but she was absolutely correct. But Dany has not even a moment acknowledging the truth of her words, then or later. She thinks of Eroeh, and the futility of her protection given her future murder--but not of the damage that had already been done for the sake of her crown.

Not only that, but Dany doesn't even kill Mirri in the heat of passion; nor does she give her a swift execution that is rationalized by some notion of justice. Her execution is premeditated, but it is cold revenge as excruciating blood sacrifice. Notes of Stannis, but to me closer to the calculated, seething rage of Tywin. 

I concede that, especially by the time of ADWD, when she has had ample experience of grabbing and holding power, Dany's reflections on Robert's Rebellion show some signs that she's not being as logical and reflective as she could be with respect to Robert and Ned. Indeed, her talk about Ned with Barristan ends abruptly because she thinks about Hazzea, and how she is now the mother of monsters--and she pushes away the thought, without closing the loop on Ned. We don't know everything that went through her head, and her later attempts to reign in her dragons and to make compromises for peace indicate that there was some attempt to atone for her oversteps.

But, especially after her final chapter, I think it's clear that Dany is going through this in a very piecemeal fashion in her head, not putting it all together for a coherent picture of what others have done, what she has done, and what it means for her vision of the world. She's thinking very selectively, reactively. In the short term, this can have some grave consequences as she embraces her role as conqueror once again.

Still, I do think that, by stories' end, Dany will have a more honest, comprehensive, view on her life story, including how her early life trauma was rooted more in her father's madness and cruelty than in Ned's rebellion against such injustice.

True, and even after all these happenings, she is still on a path of conquest and therefore destruction and  death as you said. She has, however, prevented further rapes again, by buying unsullied

Quote

"Your Grace," said Jorah Mormont, "I saw King's Landing after the Sack. Babes were butchered that day as well, and old men, and children at play. More women were raped than you can count. There is a savage beast in every man, and when you hand that man a sword or spear and send him forth to war, the beast stirs. The scent of blood is all it takes to wake him. Yet I have never heard of these Unsullied raping, nor putting a city to the sword, nor even plundering, save at the express command of those who lead them. Brick they may be, as you say, but if you buy them henceforth the only dogs they'll kill are those you want dead. And you do have some dogs you want dead, as I recall."

Well, not entirely as there are these as well, but partially, if not mostly.

Quote

A former slave came, to accuse a certain noble of the Zhak. The man had recently taken to wife a freedwoman who had been the noble's bedwarmer before the city fell. The noble had taken her maidenhood, used her for his pleasure, and gotten her with child. Her new husband wanted the noble gelded for the crime of rape, and he wanted a purse of gold as well, to pay him for raising the noble's bastard as his own. Dany granted him the gold, but not the gelding. "When he lay with her, your wife was his property, to do with as he would. By law, there was no rape." Her decision did not please him, she could see, but if she gelded every man who ever forced a bedslave, she would soon rule a city of eunuchs.

A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father's house, and the other had joined the queen's soldiers as one of the Mother's Men. He wanted them both hanged.

I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters.

 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

She constantly calls Ned, along with other rebels, usurper's dogs Even though both Barristan and Jorah, who is an exile and hates Ned because of it, say on different occasions what an Honorable man Eddard Stark is, Barristan even saying how he tried to save her life.

 

 

She considers Eddard Stark a traitor, even though she knows her family did harm to Starks first. I can't recall whether we ever learn if she knows what fate befell on Brandon and Rickard, but she knows that Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped" Lyanna. 

 

 

The conversation above happens long after the events that transpired in "lamb men land" where she tried to prevent women from being raped, going as far as saying Dothraki should marry the Lhazareen.

 

 

Dany, who tries to save Lhazareen women from rape, calls Eddard Stark, perhaps the most honorable men to ever have inked the pages of a book, a traitor and a dog for trying to save his sister from Danaerys' rapist brother.

I think it's a stretch to say that just because Dany says Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna from Robert that she thinks he kidnapped and raped her. Even if Lyanna came willingly, she would be "stolen" because she was already betrothed to another.

I do agree that Dany is a hypocrite, but for other reasons. Everyone is a hypocrite, even Ned -- nor is he nearly so honorable as he is made out to be.

[Odej]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But she knows very well that it was her house who wronged by the "kidnap and rape", or "stealing" in her words, of the highborn lady Lyanna of the house Stark, who is Robert Baratheon's betrothed and Eddard Stark's sister.

Daenerys using the word "stealing" to refer to Lyanna's kidnapping doesn't mean that she believes Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar, especially given the context in which Daenerys uses that expression. Daenerys was going to marry Hizdahr, a political arrangement, and she not only doesn't love Hizdahr but is also in love with another, Daario. So she thinks she would like Daario steal her like Rhaegar did to Lyanna. Daario would be stealing Daenerys 'cause she was already betrothed to another guy, but it would be something she'd like 'cause she wants him. Daenerys most likely applies this to Lyanna's abduction.

 

 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

15 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

What happened a month and a half ago? 

Just a different mix of posters.

[EggBlue]

48 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Just a different mix of posters.

do you have any particular fun poster in mind?!...I know I do!

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

but she knows that Rhaegar stole Lyanna as she herself states.

She doesn't know that he raped her tho, neither do we btw.

Daenerys has always attributed that incident to love.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

25 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

do you have any particular fun poster in mind?!...I know I do!

LOL. The name's in the OP's title with the sobriquet 'the Great' thrown in just so you know who's side she's on. I enjoyed a few of her posts.  She's perhaps the only avowed Stark hater that I didn't end up muting a couple of months back when the Arya hate thread got ridiculous, but it would have been a laugh to see her rage over the title of this thread.

[EggBlue]

17 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

LOL. The name's in the OP's title with the sobriquet 'the Great' thrown in just so you know who's side she's on. I enjoyed a few of her posts.  She's perhaps the only avowed Stark hater that I didn't end up muting a couple of months back when the Arya hate thread got ridiculous, but it would have been a laugh to see her rage over the title of this thread.

. to be fair ,she wasn't a Stark hater. she just hated Jon among the living Starks. but yeah , it would have been fun to have her here with us.

[SeanF]

So far as Daenerys knows, Ned was one of the power brokers of a regime that slaughtered Elia and her children, drove her and her brother into impoverished exile, and went on the rampage at Kings Landing.

We know that that would be an unfair view of Ned, but we know more than she does.

[Nathan Stark]

56 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

. to be fair ,she wasn't a Stark hater. she just hated Jon among the living Starks. but yeah , it would have been fun to have her here with us.

It's quite a shame she left. Her posts were always fun even if you didn't agree with them. She just really liked her favorite character and wasn't mean about it. And she was provocative in ways that are actually interesting and not obnoxiously repetitive. @Daenearysthegreat, you will be missed.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

39 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

And she was provocative in ways that are actually interesting and not obnoxiously repetitive. @Daenearysthegreat, you will be missed.

That one where she was arguing how Cat should have killed Jon in the crib was pretty messed up.  I remember writing 5 or 6 replies all cancelled and rewritten and when I finally had the answer the way I wanted it the thread had been shut down already.  I was fuming at the time, makes me chuckle today.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

Daenearysthegreat, you will be missed.

What happened to her anyway? I vaguely remember her mentioning she was leaving the community because she was reading another book or something? Which seemed odd. 

[EggBlue]

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

What happened to her anyway? I vaguely remember her mentioning she was leaving the community because she was reading another book or something? Which seemed odd. 

yeah. that's not that odd. 

[Nathan Stark]

14 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

What happened to her anyway? I vaguely remember her mentioning she was leaving the community because she was reading another book or something? Which seemed odd. 

She said that once she was finished with her re-read, she would leave the forum. Guess not everybody wants to stick around when they aren't focusing on ASOIAF.