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What is going to happen between Brienne, Jaime and Lady Stoneheart?


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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

If you want to avoid the implication that Jaime/Cersei will become twisted monsters in the future, an alternative interpretation might be that they were, at that time, twisted monsters, in terms of the state of their souls.  Which does not necessarily rule out future redemption.

I don't know about Cersei but I think there is a better indication that Jaime may by raised by fire:

Mel shines with light:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

Jaime armored like the sun:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

And again:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

 

I would put bets on Thoros bringing Jaime back.

I will stick with my interpretation of the twisted grotesques/burned into twisted shapes being something else.  An enemy other than Jaime or Cersei.

Edited by LynnS
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22 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I think the magical elements are fine as a side element to the main story. It keeps things interesting. But if the magical elements take over the entire story, it will be a completely different tale than how it began.

The tale literally began with zombies.

Nor do I think it will ruin the tale if the brutal cynical moral nihilists of King's Landing were to eventually find out that there are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in their brutal cynical philosophy.

That always seemed to me a major theme of the stories.  Littlefinger, for instance, prances around molesting tween girls, and tittering "tee hee, everything is proceeding in accordance with my evil plan."  But like most villains, there are aspects of reality that his evil plan has not taken into account.  Including, but not limited to, Gods, and Dragons, and True Knights, and the impending Zombie Apocalypse.

When Yoren comes to King's Landing, for instance, his warnings are rather pointedly ignored.

Maybe by "how it began" what you have in mind is specifically that part of Book 1, where poor Ned gets his head chopped off, and all the villains in King's Landing gloat.

This is where all the moral nihilists among the readership shout:  YES, I always knew it.  Dark Helmet was right.  Evil will always win because Good is stupid. 

And these are joined by the certain SanSan shippers, who hope that stupid Sansa would realize that chivalry was total bunk, and she did not need no stinking True Knight after all, and what she really wanted was a forceful, savage, nihilistic brute.

But many of the rest of us knew that the story was not over yet, and just kept reading in the hopes that the other foot would drop.

And that story, admittedly, has dragged on, and the other foot has not dropped yet, in any unambiguous way.  And perhaps it never will. But I see no tragedy in a horde of zombies, or other magical monkey wrench in the works, spoiling the scheming calculating realpolitique of all the machiavellians in King's Landing and elsewhere.

 

Edited by Mister Smikes
edited to make clear a remark was not directed against all SanSan shippers
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1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said:

The tale literally began with zombies.

Nor do I think it will ruin the tale if the brutal cynical moral nihilists of King's Landing were to eventually find out that there are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in their brutal cynical philosophy.

That always seemed to me a major theme of the stories.  Littlefinger, for instance, prances around molesting tween girls, and tittering "tee hee, everything is proceeding in accordance with my evil plan."  But like most villains, there are aspects of reality that his evil plan has not taken into account.  Including, but not limited to, Gods, and Dragons, and True Knights, and the impending Zombie Apocalypse.

When Yoren comes to King's Landing, for instance, his warnings are rather pointedly ignored.

Maybe by "how it began" what you have in mind is specifically that part of Book 1, where poor Ned gets his head chopped off, and all the villains in King's Landing gloat.

This is where all the moral nihilists among the readership shout:  YES, I always knew it.  Dark Helmet was right.  Evil will always win because Good is stupid. 

And these are joined by the SanSan shippers, who hope that stupid Sansa would realize that chivalry was total bunk, and she did not need no stinking True Knight after all, and what she really wanted was a forceful, savage, nihilistic brute.

But many of the rest of us knew that the story was not over yet, and just kept reading in the hopes that the other foot would drop.

And that story, admittedly, has dragged on, and the other foot has not dropped yet, in any unambiguous way.  And perhaps it never will. But I see no tragedy in a horde of zombies, or other magical monkey wrench in the works, spoiling the scheming calculating realpolitique of all the machiavellians in King's Landing and elsewhere.

 

I don't think the books are focused on magical elements. The prologue from AGOT was there for intrigue to hook readers IMO. You can think/expect whatever you want and you are entitled to it. What I don't get is the constant lamentation about people who think differently. 

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1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

The prologue from AGOT was there for intrigue to hook readers IMO.

I'm not saying it's impossible that you are right.  But that's a very cynical thought. 

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

You can think/expect whatever you want and you are entitled to it.

Thank you kindly.  But you sound sulky.

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

What I don't get is the constant lamentation about people who think differently. 

I don't recall any lamentation.

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55 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Well, I think any more zombies would be idiotic, you think it would be a great idea. Let's leave it at that.

More to the point, it appears to me that that is where GRRM is going.  It's a theory, based on textual evidence.  Which evidence could be discussed, and which I have in fact been discussing.

When WINDS comes out, the theory will be proven right or proven wrong.

But your artistic opinion on whether it is idiotic or a good idea probably will not change, one way or the other.

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No idea what's going to happen but I can't wait to find out.  I sure as hell hope that someone puts Mother Merciless out of her misery sooner than later.  It's a puzzle that Beric sacrificed himself to bring her back when Thoros would not.  They both seem to be some god's instrument.  I think it would be interesting if Brynden Blackfish shows up at the same time since he's travelling the river in that direction.

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On 1/8/2022 at 2:10 AM, Mister Smikes said:

Not any more.   Jaime went for a day's ride, and now has been missing for weeks.  Whatever happened, happened.  And we missed it.

Before any of that can happen, something like this will happen (I mean, has happened), as foreshadowed in one of Brienne's fever death dreams:

"Lord Renly was ahead of her, her sweet smiling king. He was leading her horse through the trees. Brienne called out to tell him how much she loved him, but when he turned to scowl at her, she saw that he was not Renly after all. Renly never scowled. He always had a smile for me, she thought . . . except . . .  "Cold," her king said, puzzled, and a shadow moved without a man to cast it, and her sweet lord's blood came washing through the green steel of his gorget to drench her hands."

Renly who is not Renly is of course Jaime, leading her horse though the trees as they go allegedly to find Sandor.   The shadow that slays him is her own "shadow" -- the wight she has become.

They are not going to Stoneheart.  That would mean breaking her oath and killing Jaime anyway.  Either she breaks her oath, and saves Jaime by not going to Stoneheart.  Or she keeps her oath and slays Jaime herself.  Her mission is "take the sword and slay the kingslayer" not "take the rope and tie up the kingslayer and bring him to me.

Which will she do?

"She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper."

Yup!  She's going to do it.  Sorry guys.  I know you're all in denial. 

The chapters aren't necessarily in sequential order, so I'm referring to the last time we saw Jaime and Brienne and she tells him the Hound and Sansa are a day's ride away. Since LSH and the brotherhood are more than a day's ride away, it's likely that a band of them came with Brienne and they will snatch Jaime as soon as he leaves Pennytree. But I don't think we're going to miss what happened -- like we didn't miss anything after Cat freed Jaime from his cell. At worst, we'll get it as a flashback.

But yes, she is in one of those oath binds. And the irony is, it was Jaime who voiced this in the text:

Quote

"So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do you're forsaking one vow for another."

My guess is that Brienne and Jaime make it back to LSH -- she either slays their captors on the road and tells him the truth -- and they at least try to rescue Pod and Hunt.

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13 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

The tale literally began with zombies.

Nor do I think it will ruin the tale if the brutal cynical moral nihilists of King's Landing were to eventually find out that there are more things on heaven and earth than are dreamt of in their brutal cynical philosophy. [...]

Good grief. My fingers are just twitching to click the like button, and then you throw in some cheap shot about Sansans. Wish people would write shorter posts, with just one debatable position in it.

Anyway. The zombies (fire version) are shaping up great. It's not the usual personality wipe out - if anything, zombie Beric is more profound than the vain young lordling who came to win the tourney at KL. I feel they're more mentally ill than evil, and Beric at least has the self-awareness that makes his (un)life meaningful. I'm pretty confident the essence of Cat might be revived in Lady Stoneheart, and it would make for better drama than the usual zombie slaughter.

I doubt there's anything human left in the ice wights, but it's a bit early to say. They could be trapped in a mental pit like warged Hodor. Come to think of it, Jon had ideas about learning from the dead, and who's to say he's worng?

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

No idea what's going to happen but I can't wait to find out.  I sure as hell hope that someone puts Mother Merciless out of her misery sooner than later.  It's a puzzle that Beric sacrificed himself to bring her back when Thoros would not.  They both seem to be some god's instrument. 

Not a nice god, methinks.

In the old poem THALABA THE DESTROYER, a dead woman appears before her father and husband as a hideous corpse creature, apparently for the purpose of tempting her husband to despair and damnation.  The father orders the husband to strike her down, but he cannot do it.  So the father tranfixes the "vampire corpse" with a spear through the heart (like a stake).  When the "vampire corpse" is thus dispatched, the spirit of the woman, transformed and beautiful, appears before them and thanks them for her release, offering encouragement and the promise of salvation.

That's the most striking example I can find.  But I think it is very typical of old school thinking regarding revenants.  There is a distinction between a malicious revenant, and the spirit, if any, trapped inside.  For instance, in DRACULA, when Van Helsing and his flunkies dispatch the vampire Lucy, they believe they are doing the real Lucy a favor, and Mina begs that should it be necessary, they must do the same for her, setting free her immortal spirit; and even opines that they will be setting Dracula himself free by destroying his vampire.

In Jaime's weirwood dream, he sees the spirits of himself and Brienne in a state of imprisonment.   Brienne, in one of her fever death dreams, sees herself menaced by a sorcerer famous for the enslavement and animation of the dead.  In another fever dream, she sees herself watching helplessly as a shadow (her shadow?) strikes down the man she loves, as he walks before her leading her horse through the trees.  

So yeah.  I think Catelyn wants out.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Good grief. My fingers are just twitching to click the like button, and then you throw in some cheap shot about Sansans. Wish people would write shorter posts, with just one debatable position in it.

I should have worded that remark better.  It was not meant to be directed at all SanSan shippers, but only the brutally nihilistic ones.  And don't tell me they don't exist, because I've seen them.  I've nothing against Sandor and Sansa eventually getting together.  But it seems to me it is mainly Sandor who must change.

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The chapters aren't necessarily in sequential order, so I'm referring to the last time we saw Jaime and Brienne and she tells him the Hound and Sansa are a day's ride away.

Generally, the chapters are in more-or-less chronological order.  It's not absolute, and I'm not ruling out exceptions.  I just see no particular reason to just assume that an exception will be made here.

We have moved ahead to the POV of other characters, who know that Jaime is missing, and who anticipate his eventual return.  We actually know more than they do at this point.  And maybe that's all we are entitled to.   We may find out when they find out.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Since LSH and the brotherhood are more than a day's ride away, it's likely that a band of them came with Brienne and they will snatch Jaime as soon as he leaves Pennytree.

Seems like an unnecessary complication.  Brienne by herself is more than a match for a handless Jaime.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But I don't think we're going to miss what happened -- like we didn't miss anything after Cat freed Jaime from his cell. At worst, we'll get it as a flashback.

There are all sorts of ways to fill readers in on things from the past.  A flashback is only one of them.

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On 1/8/2022 at 10:37 PM, Mister Smikes said:

I find your "Not Jaime!  Anyone but Jaime!" reaction curious, not the least because so many on these forums seem to agree with it.

That's not my reaction, it's your framing of my reaction. I wish I found that curious but I see it in your posts all the time. I find it tiresome.

The story you want this to be ends when the guy with the chainsaw on his wrist gets sent back to his own time and returns to work at the S Mart.  It's already been done. If Martin's just hacking on Army of Darkness then there's no reason for these books to take so long.

 

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1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

The story you want this to be ends when the guy with the chainsaw on his wrist gets sent back to his own time and returns to work at the S Mart.  It's already been done. If Martin's just hacking on Army of Darkness then there's no reason for these books to take so long.

Okay dude.  I get it.  I'm just a child at heart, and you are a sophisticated adult, who is only interested in realpolitique.    Which makes you superior to me in every way.

Does not change the fact that the story has zombies in it.  If that makes you mad, you are lashing out at the wrong person.  Maybe GRRM is a child at heart as well.

I'm just taking the text as I find it,and considering the implications.  And the text has zombies in it.  

I have not seen any evidence of chainsaws yet, but I would not necessarily rule out a supernatural animated golden hand. 

Edited by Mister Smikes
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6 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Okay dude.  I get it.  I'm just a child at heart, and you are a sophisticated adult, who is only interested in realpolitique.    Which makes you superior to me in every way.

 I don't think that's what makes me superior to you, but why split hairs?

Clearly we have nothing to discuss.

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3 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not a nice god, methinks.

In the old poem THALABA THE DESTROYER, a dead woman appears before her father and husband as a hideous corpse creature, apparently for the purpose of tempting her husband to despair and damnation.  The father orders the husband to strike her down, but he cannot do it.  So the father tranfixes the "vampire corpse" with a spear through the heart (like a stake).  When the "vampire corpse" is thus dispatched, the spirit of the woman, transformed and beautiful, appears before them and thanks them for her release, offering encouragement and the promise of salvation.

That's the most striking example I can find.  But I think it is very typical of old school thinking regarding revenants.  There is a distinction between a malicious revenant, and the spirit, if any, trapped inside.  For instance, in DRACULA, when Van Helsing and his flunkies dispatch the vampire Lucy, they believe they are doing the real Lucy a favor, and Mina begs that should it be necessary, they must do the same for her, setting free her immortal spirit; and even opines that they will be setting Dracula himself free by destroying his vampire.

In Jaime's weirwood dream, he sees the spirits of himself and Brienne in a state of imprisonment.   Brienne, in one of her fever death dreams, sees herself menaced by a sorcerer famous for the enslavement and animation of the dead.  In another fever dream, she sees herself watching helplessly as a shadow (her shadow?) strikes down the man she loves, as he walks before her leading her horse through the trees.  

So yeah.  I think Catelyn wants out.

I think Catelyn wants out...

...but not until she has Arya or Sansa (preferably Arya) adorned with her brother's crown and sitting in her father's seat at the High Table in Winterfell.

Crowning Arya and securing her throne - not vengeance on the Freys and Lannisters - is what appears to be her ultimate goal.

When she learns that Bran and Rickon are alive and (somewhat) well, she's going to want to stay around a bit longer to see them again and to ensure that they too are safe and secure.

I think this what might be the thing that saves Jaime. The revelation that Bran is alive and beyond the Wall via the weirwoods and/or the revelation (or at least a major hint) of Sansa's whereabouts.

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8 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think Catelyn wants out...

...but not until she has Arya or Sansa (preferably Arya) adorned with her brother's crown and sitting in her father's seat at the High Table in Winterfell.

If Catelyn had any control over Stoneheart whatsoever, she would want her children as far away from Stoneheart as possible, in order to protect them from Stoneheart. 

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14 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

If Catelyn had any control over Stoneheart whatsoever, she would want her children as far away from Stoneheart as possible, in order to protect them from Stoneheart. 

Why do you think Catelyn and Stoneheart are two different people?

Fire wights are not the mindless, maneating puppets that we see in zombie horror. You are mistaking them for ice wights.

Beric Dondarrion had died nine times but he was still fairly normal. No real difference between UnBeric and a severely traumatized peasant

Edited by BlackLightning
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33 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think Catelyn wants out...

...but not until she has Arya or Sansa (preferably Arya) adorned with her brother's crown and sitting in her father's seat at the High Table in Winterfell.

Crowning Arya and securing her throne - not vengeance on the Freys and Lannisters - is what appears to be her ultimate goal.

When she learns that Bran and Rickon are alive and (somewhat) well, she's going to want to stay around a bit longer to see them again and to ensure that they too are safe and secure.

I think this what might be the thing that saves Jaime. The revelation that Bran is alive and beyond the Wall via the weirwoods and/or the revelation (or at least a major hint) of Sansa's whereabouts.

Why Arya?

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