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What is going to happen between Brienne, Jaime and Lady Stoneheart?


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9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Why do you think Catelyn and Stoneheart are two different people?

That's merely one way of putting it.  But I explained this horror tradition in the post you were responding to above.

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:
9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Fire wights are not the mindless, maneating puppets that we see in zombie horror. You are mistaking them for ice wights.

Neither were any of the traditional examples of horror fiction I cited.  

9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Beric Dondarrion had died nine times but he was still fairly normal. No real difference between UnBeric and a severely traumatized peasant

Even UnBeric suspects he is an entirely different person.  He asks Thoros, was I born in fire on the battlefield?  Are you my mother?  And Stoneheart is a "grimmer shadow" than UnBeric was.

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6 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Neither were any of the traditional examples of horror fiction I cited.  

22 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

why does it have to hold to the traditional examples of horror fiction?

I tend to think the whole Catelyn -> Lady Stoneheart thing is more of a ghost story than a zombie story. A story where the ghost goes on a rampage or has a specific (dark) agenda but the ghost is abated by either having its agenda accomplished, by being exorcised or with a compromise

Martin just took a ghost of mother dearest story put it in zombie fiction clothing.

The ice zombies evoke Romero-esque, Walking Dead modern-day zombies but the fire zombies are more like the pre-modern ones with roots in voodoo and Pan-African witchcraft in which living people were entrapped and bewitched.

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15 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Why Arya?

Because Sansa is tied to Tyrion and a fugitive who is being actively pursued by the Iron Throne

Arya is a free agent in more ways than one.

Also, Catelyn was strongly advocating for Arya to be named Robb's heir...despite the fact that they both knew that Sansa was alive and kicking.

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48 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

why does it have to hold to the traditional examples of horror fiction?

Other than GRRM saying that they are in some ways not really the same persons any more?  Other than GRRM hinting there is a reason that wights don't get POVs after they return?  Other than UnBeric asking Thoros, are you my mother?  Other than the horrible inhuman things Stoneheart does, like hanging children?  Other than the fact that Stoneheart does not even bother to ask Brienne about Arya and Sansa?  

I don't recall ever saying that it "has to be".  But it is plausible.  And this is, in effect, a speculation thread.

48 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I tend to think the whole Catelyn -> Lady Stoneheart thing is more of a ghost story than a zombie story. A story where the ghost goes on a rampage or has a specific (dark) agenda but the ghost is abated by either having its agenda accomplished, by being exorcised or with a compromise

Stoneheart inhabits the physical form of Catelyn's corpse, and so in that sense is a "zombie" rather than a "ghost".   Other than that, the distinction is not particularly important to me.  There are different kinds of corpse revenants and different kinds of ghosts.

48 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Martin just took a ghost of mother dearest story put it in zombie fiction clothing.

The ice zombies evoke Romero-esque, Walking Dead modern-day zombies but the fire zombies are more like the pre-modern ones with roots in voodoo and Pan-African witchcraft in which living people were entrapped and bewitched.

Well, the ice zombies don't tend to talk.  Except Coldhands.  But, IIRC, there were suggestions that ice wights retain certain of their former memories.

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3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

why does it have to hold to the traditional examples of horror fiction?.

Also (in addition to what I said before) because of Brienne's fever dream, where she perceives a shadow striking from her direction and killing the man she loves.  In her vision, the man she loves, who is not Renly, is leading her horse through the trees.

Also because GRRM in interviews has called them "wights", drawing a connection between the zombies of fire and the zombies of ice.

Also because Bonifer's quote from the Seven Pointed Star suggests that Wights are regarded as sinister and unholy.

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18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

My guess is that Brienne and Jaime make it back to LSH -- she either slays their captors on the road and tells him the truth -- and they at least try to rescue Pod and Hunt.

Serious question to you and others.  Are you not even slightly worried that Pod and Hunt might be already dead?  Were they not being hanged when we last saw them?  How often do people survive being executed?  

There's some excuse for Brienne, because we have since seen her walking and talking (even though that does not necessarily prove anything for obvious reasons).  But why do so many treat the survival of Pod and Hunt as if it were established fact?

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22 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Generally, the chapters are in more-or-less chronological order.  It's not absolute, and I'm not ruling out exceptions.  I just see no particular reason to just assume that an exception will be made here.

We have moved ahead to the POV of other characters, who know that Jaime is missing, and who anticipate his eventual return.  We actually know more than they do at this point.  And maybe that's all we are entitled to.   We may find out when they find out.

Seems like an unnecessary complication.  Brienne by herself is more than a match for a handless Jaime.

There are all sorts of ways to fill readers in on things from the past.  A flashback is only one of them.

Well, not really. Maybe within each book, but not when crossing from book to book. After Cat frees Jaime from Riverrun, we see Theon sending Reek on his errand to get more men, the lead-up to the Blackwater, the actual battle of the Blackwater, the follow-up to the Blackwater, the attempt on Dany in Quarth, Arya's escape from Harrenhal, Joffrey's dispensing of justice after the Blackwater (which takes place after Margaery's arrival in the city) and the delivery of the hairnet, Reek's return and the fall of Winterfell, Jon's crossing over to the wildlings, and Bran's emergence from the crypts some time after the fall of Winterfell.

Then in Storm, we get the attack on the Fist, and then we see Jaime and Brienne on the river, and Jaime is so drunk on the sunlight after being so long in darkness that this can't be more than a day or two after their escape. So the end of Clash went way beyond the beginning of Storm.

Then we have Dance and Feast running concurrently, with Dance taking the story farther than Feast at the end.

So, no, there is no reason to think that Jaime and Brienne's arc will be skipped over just because the narrative elsewhere has moved beyond that point. Here is Martin on this very subject:

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The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.

My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story.

And honestly, you think Martin is going to resolve this by killing a character as vital as Jaime Lannister off-page?

 

Yes, I'm sure Brienne can take a one-handed Jaime. But she owes him her life. Meanwhile, LSH is a monstrous abomination of what Catelyn Stark used to be. And remember the vows that they both swore to each other:

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Brienne:

"Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or . . . whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old golds and the new."

Cat:

"And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new."

So first of all, Brienne cannot protect Cat's life anymore because she is not living. And second, Cat has already broken her vow by denying Brienne a place at her hearth and meat and mead at her table, and now she is blackmailing Brienne to kill Jaime, or capture him so he can be killed, which is a "service" that would bring dishonor to Brienne.

So this actually puts Brienne in the same predicament that the Mad King put Jaime in: abide by your vows even though they are forcing you to do something dishonorable, or betray them for a greater good even if the world thinks you are scum because of it.

I think she will side with Jaime and in the end they will both come to a greater understanding of each other, and that bond will then be tested again because in order to be together Jaime will have to break his KG vows, again. To me, that's a far more interesting story then if she just kills him now. Jaime still has a lot to learn. 

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8 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Serious question to you and others.  Are you not even slightly worried that Pod and Hunt might be already dead?  Were they not being hanged when we last saw them?  How often do people survive being executed?  

There's some excuse for Brienne, because we have since seen her walking and talking (even though that does not necessarily prove anything for obvious reasons).  But why do so many treat the survival of Pod and Hunt as if it were established fact?

If they are dead, then Brienne has even less reason to kill Jaime. Not only would this be a huge betrayal on LSH's part, but now they don't even have hostages to force her good behavior.

Brienne said the word before she died, and she was hoisted before Pod and Hunt. So if she survived, it stands to reason that they did as well.

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42 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Brienne said the word before she died, and she was hoisted before Pod and Hunt. So if she survived, it stands to reason that they did as well.

Hanging, especially when it was haphazardly done on the spot, often didn't instantly kill people. So it would make sense for Pod and Hunt to be kept hostage to Brienne's good behavior. Assuming of course Stoneheart has the capacity for that train of logic still. 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

If they are dead, then Brienne has even less reason to kill Jaime.

But you don't even want or believe that Brienne will kill Jaime.  So how is that even a problem?   She somehow survives, lures Jaime away from his men, repents her oath, breaks her oath, and they both decide to go nowhere near Stoneheard (which, if she's going to break her oath anyway, would be insane).

(And if you are talking about my theory, it is consistent with GRRM's SSM where he says fire wights are driven by their missions, not their humanity.  The hostages are relevant only to her human motivations.)

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Not only would this be a huge betrayal on LSH's part, but now they don't even have hostages to force her good behavior.

When she hanged Peter Pimple, was that not a huge betrayal?  Also, when did Stoneheart make any offers or promises regarding Pod and Hyle?  They were Lannister soldiers and to be hanged as such.  The only life she ever offered Brienne was her own.    

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Brienne said the word before she died, and she was hoisted before Pod and Hunt.

Pod was hoisted first.  The order in which Hyle was hoisted was unclear, since all her attention was on Pod.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

So if she survived, it stands to reason that they did as well.

Not by any logic I can see.   

It is already a huge stretch to suppose Lem would cut down Brienne because she screamed a word.   Stoneheart's orders were not conditional.

But what logic would he cut down Pod and Hyle as well?   I guess you can imagine it, on some logic.  But my question is:  why is it inevitable?  Why are you so sure?

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18 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Hanging, especially when it was haphazardly done on the spot, often didn't instantly kill people.

My question was not whether it is impossible to imagine hanging victims surviving.  The question is why it is assumed that they survived.  And I was specifically asking about Pod and Hyle.  

18 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

So it would make sense for Pod and Hunt to be kept hostage to Brienne's good behavior. Assuming of course Stoneheart has the capacity for that train of logic still. 

Stoneheart was not even present.  She was back in her cave.  Which is why, after they leave the cave, Brienne addresses all her pleas to Lem.  As for what trains of logic Stoneheart is capable of, or how much of this logic Lem understood, who knows?   We can, if we wish imagine all kinds of things running through their minds.  The question not "how is it even possible?" but rather "why the assumption?"

Because, you know, normally hanging victems don't survive.  It's like "The Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" but times 3.

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@Lord Lannister, @John Suburbs, et al. 

I'd like to further explain why hostages are completely irrelevant to the Brienne/Catelyn/Stoneheart interactions, as they have been so far portrayed in book.

Brienne took an oath to serve Catelyn -- to obey her commands.  Stoneheart intends to hold her to that oath, and to that allegiance.

When Brienne is brought before Stoneheart, she reasonably explains that, since they parted, she has merely been trying to carry out Catelyn's last instructions.  She argues, in effect:  I have been and still am your servant -- I am loyal to you.

Stoneheart, however, has her doubts.  There are subtle indications that Brienne's allegiance has changed.  She carries a Lannister sword.   And she has said certain things in her sleep.

So she puts Brienne to the test, by ordering her to kill Jaime.  By agreeing to comply with this order, Brienne would demonstrate that she is still Stoneheart's servant, and willing to oppose Stoneheart's enemies on command.

Brienne fails the test, and Stoneheart orders her hanged (as a betrayer).

Hostages are irrelevant here.  Hostages are to keep your enemies honest.  Your own vassals are expected to demonstrate their loyalty by obeying your commands.

Stoneheart wants Pod and Hyle hanged as Lannister soldiers, and wants Brienne, as her loyal vassal, to want what Stoneheart wants.  Anything else, including Brienne trying to negotiate on behalf of justice for Lannister soldiers, potentially makes Brienne a traitor in Stoneheart's eyes.

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Jaime will survive this encounter.  The story will bring him face to face with "Aegon."  There, Jaime will get the death sentence.  Stoneheart is on borrowed time.  Brienne will probably rescue Jaime from "Aegon."   They will suffer the same fate as those who stay in Westeros.  The White Walkers will turn them to wights.

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22 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Hanging, especially when it was haphazardly done on the spot, often didn't instantly kill people. So it would make sense for Pod and Hunt to be kept hostage to Brienne's good behavior. Assuming of course Stoneheart has the capacity for that train of logic still. 

If she doesn't, I'm sure Lem or Harwin or Thoros do.

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Nothing. While LSH is away, Brienne and Jaime will rescue Pod and they will all get the hell away before anyone notices. After that, Jaime will return to King's Landing while Brienne and Pod go to Quiet Isle.

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21 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

But you don't even want or believe that Brienne will kill Jaime.  So how is that even a problem?   She somehow survives, lures Jaime away from his men, repents her oath, breaks her oath, and they both decide to go nowhere near Stoneheard (which, if she's going to break her oath anyway, would be insane).

(And if you are talking about my theory, it is consistent with GRRM's SSM where he says fire wights are driven by their missions, not their humanity.  The hostages are relevant only to her human motivations.)

When she hanged Peter Pimple, was that not a huge betrayal?  Also, when did Stoneheart make any offers or promises regarding Pod and Hyle?  They were Lannister soldiers and to be hanged as such.  The only life she ever offered Brienne was her own.    

Pod was hoisted first.  The order in which Hyle was hoisted was unclear, since all her attention was on Pod.

Not by any logic I can see.   

It is already a huge stretch to suppose Lem would cut down Brienne because she screamed a word.   Stoneheart's orders were not conditional.

But what logic would he cut down Pod and Hyle as well?   I guess you can imagine it, on some logic.  But my question is:  why is it inevitable?  Why are you so sure?

Exactly my point: why would she ever go back to the LSH or the brotherhood if all her companions are dead? What possible reason would she have for helping them now? You're the one who is arguing that she will kill Jaime, not me.

No, Pod was not hoisted first:

Quote

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground.

So Brienne is already aloft, Hyle is still cursing, but Pod says nothing, not even after he is hoisted, after Brienne.

No, hanging PP was not a betrayal. What on earth are you talking about? Brienne never even met him, had not allegiance with him, nothing to do with him at all. Pod and Hunt are her companions. Pod is her squire.

The only way hanging kills instantly is if you are standing on something that is knocked out from under you, and your neck breaks. Brienne and co were hoisted off the ground, and it was done slowly enough that she was still able to scream a word. And as I said, there is no reason for Brienne to go along with this plan if her companions are dead. So all the logic points to P and H being alive. Nothing points to them being dead.

 

Quote

I'd like to further explain why hostages are completely irrelevant to the Brienne/Catelyn/Stoneheart interactions, as they have been so far portrayed in book.

Brienne took an oath to serve Catelyn -- to obey her commands.  Stoneheart intends to hold her to that oath, and to that allegiance.

When Brienne is brought before Stoneheart, she reasonably explains that, since they parted, she has merely been trying to carry out Catelyn's last instructions.  She argues, in effect:  I have been and still am your servant -- I am loyal to you.

Stoneheart, however, has her doubts.  There are subtle indications that Brienne's allegiance has changed.  She carries a Lannister sword.   And she has said certain things in her sleep.

So she puts Brienne to the test, by ordering her to kill Jaime.  By agreeing to comply with this order, Brienne would demonstrate that she is still Stoneheart's servant, and willing to oppose Stoneheart's enemies on command.

Brienne fails the test, and Stoneheart orders her hanged (as a betrayer).

Hostages are irrelevant here.  Hostages are to keep your enemies honest.  Your own vassals are expected to demonstrate their loyalty by obeying your commands.

Stoneheart wants Pod and Hyle hanged as Lannister soldiers, and wants Brienne, as her loyal vassal, to want what Stoneheart wants.  Anything else, including Brienne trying to negotiate on behalf of justice for Lannister soldiers, potentially makes Brienne a traitor in Stoneheart's eyes.

Are you serious? The issue here isn't what LSH wants, it's what Brienne will do. She is the one they are forcing this Jaime plan on. She is the one whose behavior they need to control. And they cannot compel her to do anything without hostages. Just like Robb could no longer compel Balon's good behavior once he sent Theon back. Once Brienne is free, there is absolutely no reason for her to go back. After killing her squire and nearly killing her and then forcing her into this dishonorable quest, do you honestly think Brienne cares that LSH and her band of outlaws would consider her a traitor? And more importantly, would LSH expect that she would care?

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18 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Brienne took an oath to serve Catelyn -- to obey her commands.  Stoneheart intends to hold her to that oath, and to that allegiance.

When Brienne is brought before Stoneheart, she reasonably explains that, since they parted, she has merely been trying to carry out Catelyn's last instructions.  She argues, in effect:  I have been and still am your servant -- I am loyal to you.

Stoneheart, however, has her doubts.  There are subtle indications that Brienne's allegiance has changed.  She carries a Lannister sword.   And she has said certain things in her sleep.

So she puts Brienne to the test, by ordering her to kill Jaime.  By agreeing to comply with this order, Brienne would demonstrate that she is still Stoneheart's servant, and willing to oppose Stoneheart's enemies on command.

While I tend to think that Hunt and Pod are probably still alive, I’m intrigued by what you’ve suggested.  (And I’m not sure that the two ideas are mutually exclusive).

I’ve long believed that GRRM has created a certain parallel between Lady Stoneheart and the Green Knight of the tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.  Since the primary purpose of the Green Knight was to test the honor of Sir Arthur’s knights, it stands to reason that Lady Stoneheart will serve a similar purpose in the story.

My initial assumption was that Jaime was going to play the part of Sir Gawain and Stoneheart was going to give him one more chance to prove himself.  But your scenario makes more sense.  Brienne is playing the part of Sir Gawain.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Exactly my point: why would she ever go back to the LSH or the brotherhood if all her companions are dead?

How is this my problem?  I don't expect her ever to go back there.  It isn't even what Stoneheart asked of her.  And if she decides to disobey Stoneheart and spare Jaime, that is even less of a reason for her to go back there.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

What possible reason would she have for helping them now? You're the one who is arguing that she will kill Jaime, not me.

At the moment I am arguing that, whether she kills Jaime or not, there is no reason to believe Pod and Hyle are alive, (and no reason to believe she will return to the BwB).

And if she kills Jaime, it will because she swore to serve Catelyn, and because she screamed a word symbolizing acceptance of her mission.  Anything more requires a complete renegotiation of their relationship after Brienne is cut down.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, Pod was not hoisted first:

You are conflating very different things.  You can survive indefinitely with an elevated chin from a tightened noose.  Pods feet were dangling before Brienne's feet were dangling.  That's what matters.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So Brienne is already aloft, 

Only in the sense of her chin being elevated by the tightening of the noose.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The only way hanging kills instantly is if you are standing on something that is knocked out from under you, and your neck breaks.

You completely miss the point.  Hanging did not kill instantly in "The Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" either.  Hanging almost always kills, because the hangman almost never cuts you down, no matter how many words you scream.  Lem is like most hangmen -- he is carrying out a sentence under orders.  He does not have discretion, as far as we know.

Still, we can imagine Brienne being cut down.  Nothing is absolutely impossible.  And (if you ignore the whole zombie thing) there is even some evidence for it since we've seen her walking and talking.  But this does not require anyone else being cut down.

We can even, if you like, imagine all 3 being cut down.  But "I can imagine it and you can't absolutely disprove it" is not a very compelling argument.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Nothing points to them being dead.

Other than the fact that they were hanged.  LOL.  

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Are you serious? The issue here isn't what LSH wants, it's what Brienne will do. She is the one they are forcing this Jaime plan on. She is the one whose behavior they need to control.

She was asked to choose between her loyalty to Jaime and her loyalty to Stoneheart, whom she had swore to serve.

She was not asked to decide whether she likes Pod better than she likes Jaime.  That would require a complete renegotiation of the original terms offered here.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And they cannot compel her to do anything without hostages.

That's what oaths are for.  Her oath to serve Catelyn.  Her agreement to accept the mission (via the word she screamed).  There has been alot of buildup and foreshadowing regarding oaths.  You just declared all that to be completely irrelevant.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Once Brienne is free, there is absolutely no reason for her to go back.

Exactly.  Either she keeps her oath, kills Jaime, and doesn't go back.  Or she breaks her oath, spares Jaime, and doesn't go back.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

After killing her squire and nearly killing her and then forcing her into this dishonorable quest, do you honestly think Brienne cares that LSH and her band of outlaws would consider her a traitor?

If I were in Brienne's shoes, I would feel justified in breaking any oath I made.  But Lem does not seem to mind serving her.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And more importantly, would LSH expect that she would care?

I don't know what her zombie mind considers reasonable.  But why not?  She expects Lem to carry out her orders, presumably without hostages.  And Brienne, like Lem, claims to have been her loyal servant.  

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5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I tend to think that Hunt and Pod are probably still alive, I’m intrigued by what you’ve suggested.  (And I’m not sure that the two ideas are mutually exclusive).

Agree with "not mutually exclusive".  And I will go a bit further and say I think GRRM means to keep us guessing whether Pod is alive or not.  

I'm afraid my memories of that Green Knight are a bit fuzzy.

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17 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm afraid my memories of that Green Knight are a bit fuzzy.

My own knowledge is only cursory.  It’s supposed to be one of the more complex tales to understand, with numerous different interpretations over the years.

But the dumbed down version is that the Green Knight is a giant dressed all in green.  He goes to King Arthur’s court and issues a challenge.  He will allow one of the knights to strike him with his axe if they in turn after a year will travel to his land and allow him to return the favor.

Sir Gawain takes up the challenge and cuts off the giant’s head with a swing.  The Giant then picks up his head and reminds Gawain that he will see him in a year to return the favor.

As the year approaches Gawain travels to the Green Knight’s land and spends several nights at a nearby castle where he is met with numerous tests of his honor and chivalry.

I think ASOIAF’s first overt reference to the tale occurs with Renly’s death and then later apparent resurrection when Ser Garlan takes up Renly’s green armor and plays the part of King Renly come back to life.

While that resurrection was a trick, another character who becomes resurrected in truth is also literally reflected in Renly’s green armor:

Quote

Beside the entrance, the king’s armor stood sentry; a suit of forest-green plate, its fittings chased with gold, the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief? She turned away sharply, angry with her own frailty.

And like the Green Knight, Cat receives a pretty significant neck wound that should be fatal.  Yet, like the Green Knight, Cat rises and returns to challenge the honor of someone who strives to be the perfect knight, Brienne.

 

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