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Fitting Dawn in with House Stark


Curled Finger

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At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers.  TWOIAF Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

Dawn is the oldest surviving sword in ASOIAF.  She is rich in lore and history.  Said to have been made from the heart of a falling star Dawn’s appearance is like no other in Westeros.  Pale as milkglass, this is no castle forged, perhaps not even spell forged sword.  Dawn is a sword of destiny.   While Lightbringer is called the Red Sword of Heroes the name shares meaning with Dawn.  Lightbringer isn’t said to be made of any special material.  No, it is the tempering of the steel in Azor Ahai’s beloved wife’s heart.  Dual sacrifice brought the magic to Lightbringer after it was made.   Dawn is set apart from all others in its material, the heart of a celestial body..a stone of magical powers.   This reminds me of Bran’s tears at his vision of the heart of winter.   Can’t help but wonder how that all connects. 

Many readers have accepted that Dawn is in fact Lightbringer.   Though possible, I am simply not certain.   How can I get Dawn directly to the Starks and The Long Night?  Sure some current character can take Dawn north and we can call it a day.   Still that doesn’t explain how Dawn was originally connected or why this is a Dayne sword in the south.   The problem lies north, not south where the Sword of the Morning resides or will eventually.   If Dawn is Lightbringer it’s got to be connected to House Stark somehow.  Hearts indeed. 

House Stark was not the 1st of the 1st Men.   No, House Stark seems to have been established after the events of The Long Night after The Last Hero and pre Night’s Watch group pushed The Others back.  History decrees this pushing back was in some way a result of the intercession of the Children of the Forest and perhaps the introduction to dragon glass.  8 to 10,000 years later here is Ned Stark and Howland Reed killing the last Sword of the Morning.  We are told there was no time for returning the fallen members of Team Ned or even Arthur Dayne, much less his bothers of the Kingsguard.   No, all Ned had time to do was gather up Lyanna’s body, Dustin’s horse, baby Jon and Dawn.   Why would Dawn’s return be such a pressing matter during this?  Sure, honor no doubt plays into this, but it’s not the only motive.   Ned knows Dawn must return to Starfall just as a Stark must be in Winterfell.  Something far older than House Stark is at play in this return. 

Sword of the Morning is an interesting title for the only person who can wield legendary Dawn.  ASOIAF is rife with concepts of heroism from Sandor Clegane declaring with all his heart that men are all just killers to the perfect Lady Gallahad herself, Brienne of Tarth to a certain Kingslayer who remembers why he became a knight.  There are bastards and second sons and inconvenient heirs and little girls who can all qualify as heroes here.  All it takes is courage to follow through on doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do.  And a magic sword.  With this in mind I offer that The Last Hero was a bastard son of House Dayne.   It was the Dawn Age that gave way to the Age of heroes, after all. 

The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.  TWOIAF Dorne: The Andals Arrive

I submit our Last Hero was the 1st Sword of the Morning and that Dawn gained her name in the events ending The Long Night.   Yes, that would make House Stark a cadet branch of House Dayne, sort of, way way back.  Long enough to forget the blood tie at any rate. 

Now, wait a minute, the Starks had their own cool mysterious sword in Ice forever, you say.   Right.  What does Ice look like?  Well it’s sort of white-ish and crystally and shiny, isn’t it?  Glaciers look like milkglass if nothing else.   Are Dawn and Ice one in the same?  I don’t think so.   It’s possible Dawn served as Ice in the beginning, a few months, a couple of years, but Dawn was tied to House Dayne specifically.   Get your own sword, Starks.  Returning Dawn to Starfall may have begun right there with a Dayne bastard returning this wondrous magical sword to its proper place.   (Or the Lord of Starfall coming for it.)  Ah good.   So where did Ice come from?   A subject for another topic at another time.  

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I think the Stark's ancestral sword Ice is 400 miles long and 700 feet high.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. It was true. Sweeping in over one huge humped hill, the ice dipped down into a valley, climbed the knife edge of a long granite ridgeline for a league or more, ran along a jagged crest, dipped again into a valley deeper still, and then rose higher and higher, leaping from hill to hill as far as the eye could see, into the mountainous west.

A magic sword without a hilt laying flat across the land denying hospitality and entry.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

"Any man of the Night's Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay," Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.

"Any man of the Night's Watch," the dwarf repeated, "but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?"

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked.

 

 

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I think the Dawn Sword made of stone is white obsidian which can light up like a glass candle.  The fallen star a comet that someone followed to find the pale stone.

I think the red sword is valyrian steel tempered in holy fire/holy blood.  Someone like Nissa Nissa, Melisandre or a dragon. 

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I would agree that Dawn was the original Ice.

I would add that I suspect the Battle for the Dawn, possibly on Battle Isle (where the Hightower now stands), is where the Armies of Men failed.

House Stark was founded by Brandon the Builder, who is credited with contributing to the construction of Winterfell, Stormsend, The Wall, and the Hightower.

The order of Maesters were said to be founded in honor of Uthor of the High Tower's son. The Hightowers seem to share the Valyrianlike features of the Daynes, but predate the Conquest. I would suggest all three houses (Stark, Dayne, and Hightower... and maybe also others like Durandon and Mudd) share a common ancestry that is not First Men, but rather from a more advanced seafaring and castlebuilding civilization, my guess is from the Empire of the Dawn through the Bloodstone Emperor.

The Maester's last ceremony is to watch a candle of frozen fire all night. They share vows giving up their family names and not to have wives or children just like the Night's Watch. One order in black, and one in grey (and now there is a similar order of the Kingsguard in White). Perhaps the Others were originally the order in white!

I would argue they were founded at the same time, and for the same general purpose. To guard the realms of men, one physically and one mentally (would a third guard magically?)

I would speculate that the reason a knight has to be worthy to be named Sword of the Dawn, is that the last Knight to be truly unworthy, the last Sword of the Evening, was the Night's King. (Of course, Hesperus is Phosphorus, and both are Venus, Love)

But, I would also suggest that the color of Dawn can change, and that it is in fact Lightbrininger, the Red Sword of Heroes as well.

Azor Ahai was the Bloodstone Emperor was the Last Hero.

I could go on but this is enough wild speculation for one post!

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3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Many readers have accepted that Dawn is in fact Lightbringer.

I think the trick of it will be getting the Dawn Sword to the Wall and using it and other glass candles to light up the Wall.  The value of obsidian is not whether you have enough of it ti kill WWs and wights; it's real value is in creating a wall of light.  It's light that pushes back the darkness and creates a barrier.  WWs retreat before it and wights go dormant. 

The sword in the darkness is a sword that generates its own light.  The Wall is  giant crystal that can be used to reflect and refract light - to create a storm of light:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

The fire that burns against the cold is a fire that can't be put out by the cold and isn't affected by wind or air flow:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

 

 

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Heart of a fallen star you say? How about heart of a fallen Stark? Starfall or is it perhaps Starkfall? Why both of these house’s castles share the word fall in it anyway?

Fallen star certainly describes Starfall.  What fell at Winterfell?   I have a friend who believes Winter was the name of an Ice Dragon.   All I can be sure of in the name is that this is the place winter fell.   Cute what you did with Stark Fall.  

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think the Dawn Sword made of stone is white obsidian which can light up like a glass candle.  The fallen star a comet that someone followed to find the pale stone.

I think the red sword is valyrian steel tempered in holy fire/holy blood.  Someone like Nissa Nissa, Melisandre or a dragon. 

All I can verify is that Dawn is made of is the direct quote:  a stone of magical powers.    Why not white obsidian?   It's magical and that's all that matters.  In the story of Azor Ahai all we have is the willing sacrifice of Nissa Nissa.  This is as you say, holy blood, which seems to activate magical properties in an otherwise unremarkable sword?  Any sword?   Why limit Lightbringer to a material when the tempering seems to be the trick?  

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1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I would agree that Dawn was the original Ice.

I could go on but this is enough wild speculation for one post!

There is NEVER enough wild speculation for me where the swords are concerned.   Thanks for sharing yours with us!

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31 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I wonder, could Dawn be a sword that was stolen from the others as it's description is reminiscent of the sword of the Other that danced with Waymar Royce

Star metal = No human metal?

Many have made the connection between the appearance of Dawn and The Other's sword in the AGOT prologue.  I don't discount this idea at all.  This idea played largely in my original investigation some 6 or 7 years ago.  Could be.  All that prevents me from 100% agreement is Dawn has its own story.  That origin lies in the south.  Perhaps that's where the Others' ship crashed--I don't know.  Just can't reconcile history and distance in this.  I tend to think Ice may have been a sword of Other origin, but that's just my wild speculation.   No one has told us about ancestral Ice in any detail.   Hold that thought Man.  

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22 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Last Hero, who set out with a dozen companions and his dog and horse, seek the children of the forest. Brandon of the Bloody Blade, one of Garth Greenhands supposed notable children (which may number 13 if we don't count Garth the Gardener), also seeked out the children... to kill them. He also drove the giants away from the reach and... his descendant Bran the builder appears in the North and uses giant labor to build the wall. Some coincidences these are, if you ask me!

What if Last Hero seeked the children to kill them or he did indeed seek them for their help but perhaps they didn't cooperate at first and he used violence to secure their help.

 

This is probably my favorite bit of history in the entire series.  You make logical connections and Brandon of the Bloody Blade is our only Stark who has any connection to the south (read Starfall here).   The North has their own 1st king of the 1st men story:  The Barrows King.  They don't acknowledge Garth Greenhands at all in the north.   Here is the bit about the Barrwos King...

The rusted crown upon the arms of House Dustin derives from their claim that they are themselves descended from the First King and the Barrow Kings who ruled after him. The old tales recorded in Kennet's Passages of the Dead claim that a curse was placed on the Great Barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made these pretenders to the title grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life. This is no more than legend, to be sure, but that the Dustins share blood and descent from the Barrow Kings of old seems sure enough.  TWOIAF The North

and this sweet little bit of further curiosity:

But other sources dispute this, stating that their greatest foes were the giants, as hinted at in tales told in the North, and as possibly proved by Maester Kennet in the study of a barrow near the Long Lake—a giant's burial with obsidian arrowheads found amidst the extant ribs.   TWOIAF Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Brandon of the Bloody Blade would have come to being during the Dawn Age.  The Last Hero is credited for ending the Age of Heroes.  I interpret all you have offered against the stories.  BtBB did kill off all the COTF and Giants he could while TLH recognized the importance of involving the COTF in ending the Long Night.  It's possible the Giants volunteered to help build The Wall after all TLH was a 1st Man of rare diplomacy (like Jon Snow maybe?)  

To be honest, Corvo the Crow, it is possible BtBB's actions against the native inhabitants of Westeros in some way caused the Long Night.   The Others are not fast movers.  The only thing missing in your musings is this mysterious pact between the 1st Men and COTF that was arranged prior to the Long Night.   Keep reading Brother, you may well be on to something looking in the distant past.  

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5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Dawn is set apart from all others in its material, the heart of a celestial body..a stone of magical powers.   

Not stone.  The implication is that, like many historical swords, it is made of meteoric iron.  The high nickel content can even contribute to a paler and more silvery appearance.  I don't know if nickel content is by itself sufficient to explain it's milky appearance or other special qualities.  But meteoric iron can contain any fantastical extraterrestrial substances that an author wishes it to have. 

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.  

Since there seem to otherwise seem no candidates, let me point out a possible broader interpretation.  Dornish custom is not quite so patrilinear as the rest of the Seven KIngdoms.  It is possible that a worthy knight could become a knight of House Dayne by marrying into House Dayne.   Or perhaps even a betrothal would be sufficient.  And Allyria Dayne is available.

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25 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We also know that the sword broke and that's why Nissa Nissa sacrificed herself. 

If Brandon of the Bloody Blade is the Last Hero with his sword broken, could the CotF have sacrificed themselves as Nissa Nissa?

One legend about Hammer of the Waters is that CotF sacrificed a thousand human captives or even their own young. Would they sacrifice themselves again in a threat of this magnitude to bloody Brandon's broken blade?

That says quite a bit about Lightbringer and how it really works, doesn't it? Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai saw the need for a willing blood sacrifice to imbue this sword with the power to end the Long Night. 

 How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest,   TWOAIF The Long Night

So yes absolutely blood sacrifice makes BIG things happen.  The COTF aren't known for their warrior skills.  They speak with nature and affect nature with their songs--this is one rare instance we can tie in the ending of the Long Night with another far away place--The Rhoyne where it is said Old Man of the River and all the lesser gods of the Rhoyne joined to sing a song that ended TLN.   Self sacrifice is absolutely part of the equation as is cooperation.  The Long Night ended as a matter of group effort.  The momentous actions of a courageous few humans and COTF, maybe giants and other animals, drove the Others back.  The swords do something as well, likely killing Others.   Too bad they didn't get all the buggers.  

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6 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Not stone.  The implication is that, like many historical swords, it is made of meteoric iron.  The high nickel content can even contribute to a paler and more silvery appearance.  I don't know if nickel content is by itself sufficient to explain it's milky appearance or other special qualities.  But meteoric iron can contain any fantastical extraterrestrial substances that an author wishes it to have. 

Since there seem to otherwise seem no candidates, let me point out a possible broader interpretation.  Dornish custom is not quite so patrilinear as the rest of the Seven KIngdoms.  It is possible that a worthy knight could become a knight of House Dayne by marrying into House Dayne.   Or perhaps even a betrothal would be sufficient.  And Allyria Dayne is available.

Sorry bud it is stone.   My words are a direct quote.  However, like you I need it to work in real world terms and like what you've done with meteoric iron and the vast possibilities of utilizing this material.  The ancients called it stone, but there is no reason the material you so well describe may well have been inside this stone.   I actually couldn't agree more with you.  I like this discussion in the same realm as Long Claw's hilt made of pale stone.   I think it's petrified weirwood.  As you say--martin can do as he will with a magical substance.   Love magical substances!   

I like what you did with the 2nd part and it's good.  The Rhoynish only came to Westeros some 700 years ago, being the most recent additions to the population of Westeros.   Nymeria herself married a Sword of the Morning.   The tradition was in place long before Nymeria came with her ships.  But you're right, perhaps a knight of House Dayne can be married in.  I love Allyria being available.  You are a broad thinker.   But Dawn is probably bigger than she is being a great sword.  We need a big dude for this one, not an 11 year old boy or woman of any normal size.  

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The only way to connect Dawn to House Stark is to have one of Jon’s parents be a Dayne. Which is possible, but I think Mance is Jon’s father.  If the Starks were to have a magic sword, its effects would be the opposite. The Stark sword will be Twilight, or Darkness. The Starks bring darkness, ice, and everything that isn’t nice. 

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I think it's just a Valyrian Steel sword equivalent with a glamor like Stannis'. The reason only those "worthy" can wield it is because otherwise it would ruin the sword's reputation if it was ever used by average swordsmen that inherited it just because they're heirs. The Daynes are basically a family of rich privileged people with fake history to back them up. They are probably descendants of the Bloodstone Emperor, who is also said to have founded the Church of Starry Wisdom, and probably use blood magic to light up the sword.

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

All I can verify is that Dawn is made of is the direct quote:  a stone of magical powers.    Why not white obsidian?   It's magical and that's all that matters.  In the story of Azor Ahai all we have is the willing sacrifice of Nissa Nissa.  This is as you say, holy blood, which seems to activate magical properties in an otherwise unremarkable sword?  Any sword?   Why limit Lightbringer to a material when the tempering seems to be the trick?  

I think I know what it can do, but that's about it.  I think there will be more than one Lightbringer type sword.  The Red Sword and the Dawn Sword might be two different lightbringer class swords.

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