Curled Finger Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 22 minutes ago, LynnS said: I think I know what it can do, but that's about it. I think there will be more than one Lightbringer type sword. The Red Sword and the Dawn Sword might be two different lightbringer class swords. Oh I think you are definitely right. I think the story of Lightbringer is the story of Dawn in some way, but the point is not really the sword, but the power in sacrifice. I was hoping you might have a little bit of fun in an old topic being revisited. Lightbringer class?!?!?! I love that. Now I ask you to expand on the idea. Please! Is this at all like my own character classes for choosing heroes for 12 other magical swords? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 43 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Sorry bud it is stone. My words are a direct quote. I can't find your words on "a search of ice and fire." The words I find from the books: "forged from the heart of a fallen star". Which to my mind means some kind of meteoric metal. The meteor may be a stone. The heart of the meteor may be mostly stone as well for all I know. But once you forge something from that possibly stony heart, what you are normally working with is the metal content, together with whatever impurities (such as carbon) that could plausibly mix with forged metal. It says forged from the heart of the fallen star, not carved from the heart of a fallen star. 43 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: I like this discussion in the same realm as Long Claw's hilt made of pale stone. The pommel, not the hilt, was made of pale stone. And it was "carved". It is a miniature sculpture affixed to the end of the hilt. It is perfectly plausible for a sculpture to be carved of stone. 43 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Nymeria herself married a Sword of the Morning. The tradition was in place long before Nymeria came with her ships. But you're right, perhaps a knight of House Dayne can be married in. I love Allyria being available. You are a broad thinker. But Dawn is probably bigger than she is being a great sword. We need a big dude for this one, not an 11 year old boy or woman of any normal size. I meant that Allyria is no longer betrothed to Beric, who has died. She can betroth, and ultimately marry, another worthy knight, who will then be a "knight of house Dayne" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Paul Serone said: The only way to connect Dawn to House Stark is to have one of Jon’s parents be a Dayne. Which is possible, but I think Mance is Jon’s father. If the Starks were to have a magic sword, its effects would be the opposite. The Stark sword will be Twilight, or Darkness. The Starks bring darkness, ice, and everything that isn’t nice. As I recall the Stark sword is called Ice. This bit of mixed blood, ice and fire before the Targs came around I suppose, is the only way I can get Dawn to the Battle for Dawn. Perhaps it is the sword they fought for, but where is history on that at all? There could be as many as 2000 years between the forging of Dawn and The Long Night. No you make an interesting point in house Stark bringing the Darkness. Why do you think this? Why would House Stark be the opposite of House Dayne. Far as I can tell it is the Targs of old and current Starks who have the most powerful magics. I don't think for a moment that Jon Snow is a Dayne. He cannot be Sword of the Morning if he has no Dayne blood. Bloodraven has the magical mixed blood of Blackwood and Targaryan. We see all the Stark children have the definable magic of the north--greenseers, wargs, skin changers, wolf dreams and precognition. I can't even begin to imagine what Arya would bring to the mix with her crazy Faceless man skills and talents. I only know of the Warg Kings, Barrow Kings, Marsh Kings and Red Kings noted outside of the Kings of Winter. I assume these kings titles indicate their magic abilities and that in defeating each king and marrying their daughters these magic abilities have been absorbed into the Stark lineage. That was maybe 8000 years back. Our Stark kids in the current story have these powers, though I am at a loss to explain the power of the Red Kings (unless it is skin changing) and the kids in current story have these abilities. Jon can have Dayne blood even this far down the line--it's probably a lot closer to the relatives of Rhaegar who married the Daynes, but the blood is in Jon Snow. I don't know that Jon will be the Sword of the Morning--certainly not saying he is. What I'd really like to get into is Dawn here. It's sword match is Nightfall. Nightfall has never been in Stark possession so far as I can find. Ice and Long Claw are the swords with no corresponding named sword. Yes I have a stupid spreadsheet for the sword names. Lightbringer definitely fits with Dawn..and Nightfall by association. My job is to figure out if and how Ice might fit here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Mister Smikes said: I can't find your words on "a search of ice and fire." The words I find from the books: "forged from the heart of a fallen star". Which to my mind means some kind of meteoric metal. The meteor may be a stone. The heart of the meteor may be mostly stone as well for all I know. But once you forge something from that possibly stony heart, what you are normally working with is the metal content, together with whatever impurities (such as carbon) that could plausibly mix with forged metal. It says forged from the heart of the fallen star, not carved from the heart of a fallen star. The pommel, not the hilt, was made of pale stone. And it was "carved". It is a miniature sculpture affixed to the end of the hilt. It is perfectly plausible for a sculpture to be carved of stone. I meant that Allyria is no longer betrothed to Beric, who has died. She can betroth, and ultimately marry, another worthy knight, who will then be a "knight of house Dayne" At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. TWOIAF Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men. Sorry, I should have made that more official originally. I'm not sure if you want a discussion or a simple nit picking session. Either way thank you for offering some clarifying statements for those who may not understand about the forging of metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Egged said: I think it's just a Valyrian Steel sword equivalent with a glamor like Stannis'. The reason only those "worthy" can wield it is because otherwise it would ruin the sword's reputation if it was ever used by average swordsmen that inherited it just because they're heirs. The Daynes are basically a family of rich privileged people with fake history to back them up. They are probably descendants of the Bloodstone Emperor, who is also said to have founded the Church of Starry Wisdom, and probably use blood magic to light up the sword. Ah a rare non Dawn lover! Equivalent absolutely, at least in property, but Dawn is very different from anything we've seen in this story. Again, you could be right about Dayne PR--only THEY can wield it--as though only a Dayne can be worthy. Wonder when they added knight of the house to the requirements? Knights are not a popular thing among Northmen and history would have us believe the concept of "knight" came over with the Andals. House Dayne stays contemporary. Clever. I would agree with you about the blood magic for any of the other swords because they are dark (I assume Ice was dark) thereby hiding the curse and cause of their magic. Dawn being white is so strange in this. I'm good with it being a side effect of the metals extracted from a fallen extraterrestrial body. That was an excellent pooh poohing of House Dayne and Dawn and I enjoyed your delivery a great deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Smikes Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 49 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. TWOIAF Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men. Sorry, I should have made that more official originally. I'm not sure if you want a discussion or a simple nit picking session. Either way thank you for offering some clarifying statements for those who may not understand about the forging of metal. Thank you for the quote. At the risk of being accused of nit-picking I would that the "falling star" and the "stone of magical powers" are one and the same. Both are what we would be tempted to identify with a "meteor" (though the ASOIAF texts never use the word AFAIK). And there is nothing here to contradict the idea that a blade forged from a meteor, or from the meteor's heart, would be made of metal, just like many other meteor-metal blades of history, legend, myth and fiction. Check out out this image of an ataxite sword. Kinda milky, isn't it? 13200498723_d1c57c458a_o.jpg (2436×2024) (wp.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 9 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Oh I think you are definitely right. I think the story of Lightbringer is the story of Dawn in some way, but the point is not really the sword, but the power in sacrifice. I was hoping you might have a little bit of fun in an old topic being revisited. Lightbringer class?!?!?! I love that. Now I ask you to expand on the idea. Please! Is this at all like my own character classes for choosing heroes for 12 other magical swords? Yes! Exactly. Twelve heroes with legendary weapons that can burn with their own light. Sam has four potential lightbringers at the Citadel, if he figures out that he should take them back to the Wall, Valyrian steel swords are also potential lightbringers or red sword. Black and red swords, one white and one green sword. I'm guessing characters from all three religions and on a redemption path to make up twelve swords in the darkness.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 16 hours ago, Curled Finger said: Many readers have accepted that Dawn is in fact Lightbringer. Though possible, I am simply not certain. How can I get Dawn directly to the Starks and The Long Night? I'm not sure how to get there without understanding the meaning of stuff. The Dayne sword is called the Dawn sword and the one who wields it - the sword of the morning. We know there is an opposite swordsman called the sword of the evening but whether the evening sword uses the same sword as the morning sword is the question. I think not. But I do think the evening sword is related to the night and the Starks. So there could be a more direct blood tie between these houses in the past than we know. I think both these swords 'slay the season' in a sense. While the lightbringer swords slay the darkness that comes with the long night (winter). Comets or fallen stars or stars that come down and walk the earth are signs and portents for the appearance of these legendary heroes. Comets depicted as swords in the 1600's courtesy of Tucu: Hevelius_Comet_Types.jpg (900×1223) (umd.edu) A sword of the evening/fallen star/red sword (Orion's sword): Lieve_Verschuier_-_Staartster_(komeet)_boven_Rotterdam_-_11028-A-B_-_Museum_Rotterdam.jpg (700×553) (wikimedia.org) The three stars it hangs from look like Orion's Belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 8 hours ago, Curled Finger said: He cannot be Sword of the Morning if he has no Dayne blood. I don't this is exactly correct. Martin has said that the Dawn sword is the hereditary sword of house Dayne and it's typically a Dayne who wields it but it's not necessarily a Dayne. The main criteria is that the one claiming it must be worthy of it. I don't think you can be a soiled knight to claim it. How the sword responds or makes a choice is another question. Perhaps it becomes alive with light. As for sacrifices involved; I don't think this is a blood sacrifice per se but one must be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. I think this is what is meant by 'the Wall will stand so long as the men of the watch stay true'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Is this the hidden meaning behind the dialogue between Ned Stark (sword of the evening?) and Arthur Dayne (sword of the morning) in Ned's fever dream about the tower of joy: [Paraphrased] Arthur Dayne: "Now it begins" (the long summer after the false spring) Ned Stark: "No, now it ends" (summer finally ends and winter is coming) The rise of the white walkers got triggered when the sword of the morning got slain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackSwan Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 I think Dawn is filling some kind of Excalibur trope, the unique magical sword that only a worthy guy can wield it and the most famous one was named "Arthur". And Martin used it as a red herring. Could it be use as a Lightbringer / Valyriansteel ? Maybe. Lightbringer / Dragonsteel / Valyriansteel seems to be a steel infuse with fire magic. If Martin made obsidian infused with fire magic, perhaps the iron in a meteorite also has this kind of attribute which would give Dawn the same power as Lightbringer / VS. But in the end, I don't see anyone coming to the save the day with Dawn. To me, it make more sense that Valyriansteel is the real deal, Jon has a Lightbringer but so do Jaime and Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia H. Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Great topic! 1 hour ago, alienarea said: Is this the hidden meaning behind the dialogue between Ned Stark (sword of the evening?) and Arthur Dayne (sword of the morning) in Ned's fever dream about the tower of joy: [Paraphrased] Arthur Dayne: "Now it begins" (the long summer after the false spring) Ned Stark: "No, now it ends" (summer finally ends and winter is coming) The rise of the white walkers got triggered when the sword of the morning got slain? I totally agree that Dawn is a sword that has played a crucial role in ending the Long Night. (I don't find it very likely that it is the same sword as AA's Lightbringer, but what do I know...) What if the slaying of the Sword of the Morning at a pivotal moment in history (and by a Stark) means that the era of this particular Dawn has ended, the "day" secured by the Dayne Last Hero is over, another Long Night is approaching and another Dawn needs to be forged for a new hero (not necessarily a Dayne) to bring about a new Dawn / Spring? If it is so, the Dawn of the Daynes would be the clue to what needs to be done rather then the sword that is actually going to be used. It may also be significant that there is a star constellation called Sword of the Morning (and the wildlings know it by the same name as the people of the Seven Kingdoms). Quote The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn... I don't necessarily mean that that blazing white diamond will fall from the sky, but still could the existence of this constellation indicate somehow that the way to forge a new Dawn is still available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 17 minutes ago, Julia H. said: The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn... Yes, I think Martin is modelling this after the constellation Orion the Hunter: Orion is king of the winter sky - Post Bulletin | Rochester Minnesota news, weather, sports But then the constellation disappears and returns rising in the eastern sky before dawn: EarthSky | Orion the Hunter returns late July or early August We don't have a complete description the the dawn sword but i wouldn't be surprised if it has a diamond in it's hilt and I wonder if this is the 'stone' forged in the heart of a dying star. Meteorites heading to Earth may contain trillions of diamonds - MINING.COM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia H. Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 5 minutes ago, LynnS said: Yes, I think Martin is modelling this after the constellation Orion the Hunter: Orion is king of the winter sky - Post Bulletin | Rochester Minnesota news, weather, sports But then the constellation disappears and returns rising in the eastern sky before dawn: EarthSky | Orion the Hunter returns late July or early August Thanks for the links! I love the imagery in these articles associated with Orion the Hunter - king of the winter sky and the ghost of the shimmering summer dawn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: Stannis' Lightbringer not being the real deal is probably because it had no willing blood sacrifice. Stannis' sword is just glamoured to do tricks. And right, no blood sacrifice at all in this sword. However, I do hope it lights up at the right time to help Stannis in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 3 minutes ago, Julia H. said: Thanks for the links! I love the imagery in these articles associated with Orion the Hunter - king of the winter sky and the ghost of the shimmering summer dawn! Indeed! Martin layers so many things. But I think we can see where some of his inspiration comes from concerning swords and comets. I'm now expecting a return on the red comet at dawn in the constellation of the sword of the morning and Dany will see Khal Drogo again: Quote A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys X The sun was only just coming up. A few bright stars lingered in the cobalt sky. Perhaps one of them is Khal Drogo, sitting on his fiery stallion in the night lands and smiling down on me. I still don't know how to answer the OP though. So many puzzle pieces!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 2 hours ago, LynnS said: I'm not sure how to get there without understanding the meaning of stuff. The Dayne sword is called the Dawn sword and the one who wields it - the sword of the morning. We know there is an opposite swordsman called the sword of the evening but whether the evening sword uses the same sword as the morning sword is the question. I think not. But I do think the evening sword is related to the night and the Starks. So there could be a more direct blood tie between these houses in the past than we know. I think both these swords 'slay the season' in a sense. While the lightbringer swords slay the darkness that comes with the long night (winter). Comets or fallen stars or stars that come down and walk the earth are signs and portents for the appearance of these legendary heroes. Comets depicted as swords in the 1600's courtesy of Tucu: Hevelius_Comet_Types.jpg (900×1223) (umd.edu) A sword of the evening/fallen star/red sword (Orion's sword): Lieve_Verschuier_-_Staartster_(komeet)_boven_Rotterdam_-_11028-A-B_-_Museum_Rotterdam.jpg (700×553) (wikimedia.org) The three stars it hangs from look like Orion's Belt. Original quote goes to what TWOIAF says. I'm trying very hard to color within the lines here---you know how hard that can be for me where the swords are concerned! I'm not sure the Sword of the Evening is actually opposite. The only one we know of was shipped off to the wall, but no clue as to his crimes--if there actually were crimes involved at all. As we see in Sam's story, the Wall is a great place for inconvenient heirs. I tend to think along the same lines as you with the Sword of the evening, but I have nothing to back up anything from the books for it. Slay the season indeed! Clarify for me just a bit here, Lynn S, are you thinking the real Lightbringer is a comet not a sword? Can't wait to take a look at your links--will do after replies. Love your links still remember Tower of Joy and the little shack it might have been--great stuff LynnS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 10 hours ago, Mister Smikes said: Thank you for the quote. At the risk of being accused of nit-picking I would that the "falling star" and the "stone of magical powers" are one and the same. Both are what we would be tempted to identify with a "meteor" (though the ASOIAF texts never use the word AFAIK). And there is nothing here to contradict the idea that a blade forged from a meteor, or from the meteor's heart, would be made of metal, just like many other meteor-metal blades of history, legend, myth and fiction. Check out out this image of an ataxite sword. Kinda milky, isn't it? 13200498723_d1c57c458a_o.jpg (2436×2024) (wp.com) That is one bitchen looking sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 2 hours ago, alienarea said: Is this the hidden meaning behind the dialogue between Ned Stark (sword of the evening?) and Arthur Dayne (sword of the morning) in Ned's fever dream about the tower of joy: [Paraphrased] Arthur Dayne: "Now it begins" (the long summer after the false spring) Ned Stark: "No, now it ends" (summer finally ends and winter is coming) The rise of the white walkers got triggered when the sword of the morning got slain? Had I red this 20 minutes ago I would have blown it off as nothing, I see you read @LynnS posts, which I just had the pleasure of going through-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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