Fitting Dawn in with House Stark

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Is this the hidden meaning behind the dialogue between Ned Stark (sword of the evening?) and Arthur Dayne (sword of the morning) in Ned's fever dream about the tower of joy:

[Paraphrased] Arthur Dayne: "Now it begins" (the long summer after the false spring)

Ned Stark: "No, now it ends" (summer finally ends and winter is coming)

The rise of the white walkers got triggered when the sword of the morning got slain?

Sorry I don't know what happened there.    The Sword of the Morning Dawn imagery is powerful and the symbolism is almost an attainable position for any man (thinking about Jamie being so impressed with Arthur Dayne)--except the man has to be a knight of House Dayne.    I don't know it's very interesting and I tend to think the Others were stirring right around that time, but I just don't know when they began showing their ugly faces.   But yah, perhaps the Sword of the Morning job was created during the Pact of the 1st Men long before the Long Night?    I like this thinking.   We've got a big hairy ancient Pact we know nothing about.   

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm not sure the Sword of the Evening is actually opposite.

I'm not sure either.  I think sword of the morning/evening is the moniker given to someone wielding the dawn sword during summer/winter or day/night.  But I don't know who it would.  The dawn sword is most needed at night to push back the darkness.  I think if the sword ends up at the Wall, where it must surely go in the battle for the dawn; it could be the device for turning the Wall into a storm of light which would make the Wall itself another lightbringer but on a spectacular scale.     

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

I think Dawn is filling some kind of Excalibur trope, the unique magical sword that only a worthy guy can wield it and the most famous one was named "Arthur". And Martin used it as a red herring.
Could it be use as a Lightbringer / Valyriansteel ? Maybe. Lightbringer / Dragonsteel / Valyriansteel seems to be a steel infuse with fire magic. If Martin made obsidian infused with fire magic, perhaps the iron in a meteorite also has this kind of attribute  which would give Dawn the same power as Lightbringer / VS.

 But in the end, I don't see anyone coming to the save the day with Dawn. To me, it make more sense that Valyriansteel is the real deal, Jon has a Lightbringer but so do Jaime and Brienne.

Hey @TheBlackSwan--welcome to the forums and thanks for posting right here with us.   I can't think about Dawn without picturing Excalibur---I think Martin did that on purpose.  Heck yes Dawn could be a red herring--any of the swords could be at this point.  Arthur had 2 swords, Excalibur which he pulled from stone--used for WAR and Clarent the sword of PEACE.    Can't help but completely dig that in conjunction with the stupidly enormous VS swords we have.   Tarly seems to actually use Heartsbane in battle where Ned seemed to pull Ice out for ceremonial purposes like beheadings of traitors.  Heartsbane is a huge sword.   Ice is a pretty danged big one, too.  The others (except Blackfyre and Long Claw that we have descriptions for) seem to be of normal size maybe you and I could wield.  Sorry, I digress. 

Lightbringer as a title could be anything really.   If you haven't read LynnS' post about the Wall being Lightbringer check it out.   People can be Lightbringer.  The dragons can be Lightbringers.  With that in mind I have to focus on one thing at a time and I believe Lightbringer is one sword that does something the other swords can not.   I think the VS swords probably kill Others whereas Lightbringer or Dawn or Needle for all I know, is more like a key of some sort.   Nothing to back it up--just a sword geek trying to figure out how it all works.  It will take a village to end this next Long Night.  

[Phylum of Alexandria]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure either.  I think sword of the morning/evening is the moniker given to someone wielding the dawn sword during summer/winter or day/night.  But I don't know who it would.  The dawn sword is most needed at night to push back the darkness.  I think if the sword ends up at the Wall, where it must surely go in the battle for the dawn; it could be the device for turning the Wall into a storm of light which would make the Wall itself another lightbringer but on a spectacular scale.     

I don't like to speculate on mythic underpinnings of the story too much, not only because Elio has warned against that with respect to how GRRM writes, but it can easily become a Rorshach rabbithole of interpretations that take you everywhere and nowhere. That said, LmL has pointed out the Lucifer/Venus/Morningstar-Evenstar connections in the story, and I have a hard time believing that GRRM isn't aware of what he's doing there. He even has a few minor characters named Lucifer.

Thematically it makes sense, both to connect a glorious rise to a tragic fall, and to have the in-story myths of ending the long night tied to similar characters who caused the long night. There is a poetic symmetry that GRRM seems to like there. What precisely it will mean for the Dawn sword, I can't say.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

Great topic!

I totally agree that Dawn is a sword that has played a crucial role in ending the Long Night. (I don't find it very likely that it is the same sword as AA's Lightbringer, but what do I know...) What if the slaying of the Sword of the Morning at a pivotal moment in history (and by a Stark) means that the era of this particular Dawn has ended, the "day" secured by the Dayne Last Hero is over, another Long Night is approaching and another Dawn needs to be forged for a new hero (not necessarily a Dayne) to bring about a new Dawn / Spring? If it is so, the Dawn of the Daynes would be the clue to what needs to be done rather then the sword that is actually going to be used.

It may also be significant that there is a star constellation called Sword of the Morning (and the wildlings know it by the same name as the people of the Seven Kingdoms).

I don't necessarily mean that that blazing white diamond will fall from the sky, but still could the existence of this constellation indicate somehow that the way to forge a new Dawn is still available?

Another great weigh in, @Julia H..  I don't get a lot of back up for thinking about Dawn/Lightbringer as a sword specifically, so thanks for that.  Eventually @LynnS will give us an excellent topic for all these astronomical bodies in ASOIAF because they are important to understanding this story and the great events of time on this world.  You have some real back up for thinking the slaying of Arthur Dayne is actually what caused the Others to reappear or activate the coming catastrophe.  I wonder if you think Darkstar will be unworthy of wielding Dawn and that he will be a Sword of the Evening and if that has any bearing on Dawn's purpose? Darkstar alone doesn't bode well for his intentions does it?  

Because Dawn is so unique I don't know that it can be reforged, but that little bit above makes me wonder if the person who wields Dawn can influence it's magic or maybe purpose?  Glad you are enjoying the conversation.  

[Curled Finger]

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure either.  I think sword of the morning/evening is the moniker given to someone wielding the dawn sword during summer/winter or day/night.  But I don't know who it would.  The dawn sword is most needed at night to push back the darkness.  I think if the sword ends up at the Wall, where it must surely go in the battle for the dawn; it could be the device for turning the Wall into a storm of light which would make the Wall itself another lightbringer but on a spectacular scale.     

Again, just bitchen.   Wouldn't that be something to read!

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I don't like to speculate on mythic underpinnings of the story too much,

I agree.  I think you can get get into the weeds quickly contemplating various mythologies.  I usually stay away from it.  I am interested in Martin's use of constellations and heavenly phenomena.   They are prominent in what I consider signs and portents affecting kings and nations.   There are several myths and prophecies built around the appearance of comets and I would include the blood moon eclipse observed in Tyrion's POV as another ominous sign.

Orion is interesting because is so apposite to the kings of winter and descending into the underworld which is part of the mythology.  The same with Bran and the king under the mountain of Celtic mythology.

The question is how they are personified by characters on the page.

Here is Martin's great red comet:

xir86110_1024x1024.jpeg (1009×1024) (shopify.com)

And here be dragons:

H._J._Helden,_Ferrara_distrutta_dal_terremoto_del_1570.jpg (640×366) (wikimedia.org)

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran I

Though Old Nan did not think so, and she'd lived longer than any of them. "Dragons," she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. "It be dragons, boy," she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.

 

Old Nan says they are smelly.

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Corvo the Crow]

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[TheBlackSwan]

26 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Lightbringer as a title could be anything really.   If you haven't read LynnS' post about the Wall being Lightbringer check it out.   People can be Lightbringer.  The dragons can be Lightbringers.  With that in mind I have to focus on one thing at a time and I believe Lightbringer is one sword that does something the other swords can not.   I think the VS swords probably kill Others whereas Lightbringer or Dawn or Needle for all I know, is more like a key of some sort.   Nothing to back it up--just a sword geek trying to figure out how it all works.  It will take a village to end this next Long Night.  

But it was not a title, it was a sword. In the prologue we can see that the Other's sword is infuse with ice magic, it will frost regular steel to weaken it until it breaks. Regular steel being useless, it explains the need for a magical sword to counter it and why there are legends about sword infuse with fire magic. The Others will still have those swords so Lightbringer isn't a title.

The characters are looking for a sword that generate heat, if it wasn't important it would not be mentioned to point out that Stannis sword is a fake. Still by looking in the prologue fight we can guess why the sword will generate heat. How do you get rid of frost on your windshield? You turn on the car and the heat. That's why the legend says that Lightbringer, in battle, burn fiery hot. In battle against the Others, the sword generate heat to counter the frost of the Others swords.

It always come down to Ice and Fire.
Martin said that the Ice and Fire of the title referred to the Others and Dany and her dragons. That the Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it, that the Targaryens originally didn't have dragons but a psionic power: pyriokinesis, they could conjure up flames with their minds. So we have the Others, who represents Ice, control the ice and have swords infuse with ice magic and we have the Dragonlords, who represents Fire, control the dragons and have Valyriansteel which is more likely a steel infuse with fire magic = Lightbringer / Dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero.

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think the Stark's ancestral sword Ice is 400 miles long and 700 feet high

Hi Lynn. 

Nice idea. The Wall being described as a sword and a snake makes me think of dragons, specifically the different ways George has described his swords as dragon swords. 

We have the obvious example of dragonsteel.

We have Valyrian Steel forged in the fires of dragons.

And Dawn is said to have been forged from a fallen star, or meteor. Falling stars or meteors are often referred to as dragons irl mythology, and I think the theory that the dragons in the 'A thousand, thousand dragons pouring forth' from the moon are meteors is correct. (See Lml's moon meteor theory for anyone interested in learning more)

The Wall is also described as an ice dragon by Jon.

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

A magic sword without a hilt laying flat across the land denying hospitality and entry.

As per Seam's sword -- words pun...

A magic sword denying entry. 

Magic words permitting passage.

The magic words enabling Bran and Co to pass through the Wall are the Night's Watch oath, starting with the line... 'I am the sword in the darkness'. It could also be... 'I speak the words in the darkness'.

I mentioned my theory about the words or phrase 'who goes there? Or who are you?' being key magical words on page 4 of the 'Time and causality' thread. As an extension of that idea, perhaps one needs to utter some magic words (killing words as per @ravenous reader's theory) to activate a magical sword. Say, Dawn or the next Lightbringer. Magic words and magic swords having to work together. 

Anyhoo, I've got a lot to catch up on, I'll work my way through this thread. 

Oh and hi @Curled Finger. Hope you're well. 

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

You have some real back up for thinking the slaying of Arthur Dayne is actually what caused the Others to reappear or activate the coming catastrophe.  I wonder if you think Darkstar will be unworthy of wielding Dawn and that he will be a Sword of the Evening and if that has any bearing on Dawn's purpose? Darkstar alone doesn't bode well for his intentions does it?  

The slaying of Arthur Dayne caused it or enabled it? I mean the Others can have a reason totally of their own to reappear, and Dawn not being wielded by anyone or the end of the Dayne-dawn era may seem like a propitious time to attack. 

But it is also possible that the slaying of the Dayne by the Stark merely signalled the end of the Dayne Dawn era (it would have ended anyway, but the above deed was a mark that it was indeed happening), and the Others may have noticed.

Darkstar wielding Dawn? What is the reason why Dawn must be wielded only by someone deemed worthy of it, to the extent that having no one to wield it is preferable to it being wielded by a less-than-worthy man (not really the usual thing in noble families)? Is it because the sword is respected that much or is it because Dawn, in the wrong hands, can be corrupted? Darkstar with Dawn would not bode well.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Because Dawn is so unique I don't know that it can be reforged, but that little bit above makes me wonder if the person who wields Dawn can influence it's magic or maybe purpose?  Glad you are enjoying the conversation.  

Then maybe it is not reforged but... no more Swords of the Morning in the Dayne family, a Darkstar (of the Night) perhaps corrupts the sword with his influence (committing a crime with it?) and a new hero will need to purify it again? With sacrifice? 

[Curled Finger]

37 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

But it was not a title, it was a sword. In the prologue we can see that the Other's sword is infuse with ice magic, it will frost regular steel to weaken it until it breaks. Regular steel being useless, it explains the need for a magical sword to counter it and why there are legends about sword infuse with fire magic. The Others will still have those swords so Lightbringer isn't a title.

The characters are looking for a sword that generate heat, if it wasn't important it would not be mentioned to point out that Stannis sword is a fake. Still by looking in the prologue fight we can guess why the sword will generate heat. How do you get rid of frost on your windshield? You turn on the car and the heat. That's why the legend says that Lightbringer, in battle, burn fiery hot. In battle against the Others, the sword generate heat to counter the frost of the Others swords.

It always come down to Ice and Fire.
Martin said that the Ice and Fire of the title referred to the Others and Dany and her dragons. That the Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it, that the Targaryens originally didn't have dragons but a psionic power: pyriokinesis, they could conjure up flames with their minds. So we have the Others, who represents Ice, control the ice and have swords infuse with ice magic and we have the Dragonlords, who represents Fire, control the dragons and have Valyriansteel which is more likely a steel infuse with fire magic = Lightbringer / Dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero.

 

Your mind works like mine does and I thank you for that!  Symbolism is a tough one for me so yes I absolutely believe Lightbringer is actually a sword.  I was looking for any text that indicated what Dawn looked like but all I got was milk glass.  That only tells me color.  Now the VS swords are all dark blades, smoky grey to black.   They don't light up, but they are Targ engineered with fire magic.  Jon and Brienne both claim their VS swords make them better fighters--taking no credit for their performance in what fights took place.  This indicates a sentience of sorts in the VS swords at the very least.  If Dawn is indeed a magic sword surely it does something in action?   Lightbringer is aflame by general consensus and a glamour--Is the Red Sword of Heroes really going to bursts into flames during battle?  Or is it always lit up and ready to rock?  Seems to me it's got to come and go and only come when necessary, not for show as Stannis' sword does.  Is Thoros' use of wildfyre on his blades an homage to Lightbringer?  The other Lightbringer item is Jon's dream where:  Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.   ADWD Jon XII 

Blade burned red in his fist.  Hrm.  Sounds like Lightbringer to me, the Red Sword of Heroes Lightbringer.  

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

The Wall being described as a sword and a snake makes me think of dragons, specifically the different ways George has described his swords as dragon swords. 

Hello Wizz!

I'm thinking about the story of the Last Hero and I'm still not sure what intercession means and how the COTF/GSeers are involved.  But it seems to me that Wall as a dam for ice magic among other things fits the bill.  Dams contain and release their contents and at the moment I think the Wall is regulating the seasons.  This would make sense as the magical cause of the unnatural seasons.

A magic that is maintained by GSeers (giants in the earth) and if that power is failing then only light can push back the darkness.

I do think the Wall and the Watch are the primary responsibility of the Starks.  They own the Wall.  So metaphorically and literally the Wall could be the sword Ice.

The words of the NW certainly open the Black Gate, a face hung on the Wall.  I think there is a lot about the Wall that hasn't been revealed yet. 

[Julia H.]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm now expecting a return on the red comet at dawn in the constellation of the sword of the morning and Dany will see Khal Drogo again:

Khal Drogo among the stars alway reminds me of the real life myths where dead warriors ride down the Milky Way to help their living descendants in their hour of need.

[Curled Finger]

35 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

A magic sword denying entry. 

Magic words permitting passage.

The magic words enabling Bran and Co to pass through the Wall are the Night's Watch oath, starting with the line... 'I am the sword in the darkness'. It could also be... 'I speak the words in the darkness'.

I mentioned my theory about the words or phrase 'who goes there? Or who are you?' being key magical words on page 4 of the 'Time and causality' thread. As an extension of that idea, perhaps one needs to utter some magic words (killing words as per @ravenous reader's theory) to activate a magical sword. Say, Dawn or the next Lightbringer. Magic words and magic swords having to work together. 

Anyhoo, I've got a lot to catch up on, I'll work my way through this thread. 

Oh and hi @Curled Finger. Hope you're well. 

Oooh, Wizz, I like that bit taking the magic just a bit further in words.  Words and swords working together.  Get caught up and come back with how you envision this happening, Old Friend!  

[LynnS]

Just now, Julia H. said:

Khal Drogo among the stars alway reminds me of the real life myths where dead warriors ride down the Milky Way to help their living descendants in their hour of need.

This informs us about Mirri Maaz Duur's prophecy when Dany asks her if she will see Khal Drogo again.  After she bears a living child.  :)O

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Then maybe it is not reforged but... no more Swords of the Morning in the Dayne family, a Darkstar (of the Night) perhaps corrupts the sword with his influence (committing a crime with it?) and a new hero will need to purify it again? With sacrifice? 

Maybe it's not the sword itself that has to be reforged but the heart and soul of the warrior.  

This essay about the Hound is really interesting. Perhaps one has to be reborn.

PAWN TO PLAYER | A Rethinking Sansa Stark Resource (wordpress.com)

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

The slaying of Arthur Dayne caused it or enabled it? I mean the Others can have a reason totally of their own to reappear, and Dawn not being wielded by anyone or the end of the Dayne-dawn era may seem like a propitious time to attack. 

But it is also possible that the slaying of the Dayne by the Stark merely signalled the end of the Dayne Dawn era (it would have ended anyway, but the above deed was a mark that it was indeed happening), and the Others may have noticed.

Darkstar wielding Dawn? What is the reason why Dawn must be wielded only by someone deemed worthy of it, to the extent that having no one to wield it is preferable to it being wielded by a less-than-worthy man (not really the usual thing in noble families)? Is it because the sword is respected that much or is it because Dawn, in the wrong hands, can be corrupted? Darkstar with Dawn would not bode well.

Then maybe it is not reforged but... no more Swords of the Morning in the Dayne family, a Darkstar (of the Night) perhaps corrupts the sword with his influence (committing a crime with it?) and a new hero will need to purify it again? With sacrifice? 

I am batting ideas about Julia H, just paraphrasing my interpretation of the things you previously wrote.  But something caused The Others to awaken, reactivate, zone in, whatever they are doing.  Why not the death of the last SOTM?  We saw what happened when Winterfell had no Stark in residence--very much against their own saying.  But the Dayne era has not yet ended.  We still have 3 living Daynes that we can name:  Edric, Gerold and Allyria.   Gerold Darkstar is the right age and is a knight.   Whether he is worthy to wield Dawn remains to be seen.   I'vve posted the quotes straight from the World book in the OP regarding what at least the Maester considers the deal with wielding Dawn--got to be a knight of the house.  Who knows if that's accurate or not--it's just there and the only reference I actually have.  The quote I used is prefaced by the Maester mentioning that the Corbrays inherit Lady Forlorn in contrast to how Dawn is er, possessed.  Your bit about Darkstar and the potential corruption of Dawn is very interesting.  More than me wonder if this is what happens when there is only a Sword of the Evening.  Perhaps we will learn exactly this if TWOW is ever published!  But it really is a concerning thought if Dawn is the key instead of a simple weapon.  Lots to think about in this.  Do you think another wielder--a true hero--could restore Dawn to its real purpose? 

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis' Lightbringer not being the real deal is probably because it had no willing blood sacrifice.

Yah his sword is a bit of a mystery to me.  Catelyn describes it as having a big square cut ruby in it's hilt and the ruby on Mance's manacle is also a large square cut ruby.  So I have no doubt it's been glamored.  But have we ever seen it out of the hilt besides when Sam asks to see it and when Rattleshirt is burned?  Because I'm wondering if this sword has been given to Stannis by Melisandre and I wonder if it might be valyrian steel.  Or we just haven't seen the naked blade or the blade without a glamor.