Fitting Dawn in with House Stark

[Alexis-something-Rose]

31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I tend to resist the idea that there were once two moons in the sky.  Or the moon flew too close to the sun and drank in it's fires unless we are talking about an eclipse.  

If we go by the premise that the people in ancient Planetos associated comets with dragons, then the Qartheen story would be about comets, not dragons.  I think that this is something we will see in TWoW. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I tend to resist the idea that there were once two moons in the sky.  Or the moon flew too close to the sun and drank in it's fires unless we are talking about an eclipse.  

If we go by the premise that the people in ancient Planetos associated comets with dragons, then the Qartheen story would be about comets, not dragons.  I think that this is something we will see in TWoW. 

Yeah, and as far as the solar eclipse goes, perhaps the second moon happened to fall in the path of the comet when it was in the eclipse position. Or, if we're going the magic route, perhaps the celestial alignment was perfect for some blood magic/psionic presence to pull the comet towards the earth, and thereby hitting the moon.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Yeah, and as far as the solar eclipse goes, perhaps the second moon happened to fall in the path of the comet when it was in the eclipse position. Or, if we're going the magic route, perhaps the celestial alignment was perfect for some blood magic/psionic presence to pull the comet towards the earth, and thereby hitting the moon.

This is to account for the moon meteors? A thousand, thousand dragons...

Quote

 

That can be explained with comets as well:

A meteor shower results from an interaction between a planet, such as Earth, and streams of debris from a comet. Comets can produce debris by water vapor drag, as demonstrated by Fred Whipple in 1951,[24] and by breakup. Whipple envisioned comets as "dirty snowballs," made up of rock embedded in ice, orbiting the Sun. The "ice" may be water, methane, ammonia, or other volatiles, alone or in combination. The "rock" may vary in size from a dust mote to a small boulder. Dust mote sized solids are orders of magnitude more common than those the size of sand grains, which, in turn, are similarly more common than those the size of pebbles, and so on. When the ice warms and sublimates, the vapor can drag along dust, sand, and pebbles.

 

It can also accounts for smaller size meteors making it to the planet.

Meteor shower - Wikipedia

[Alexis-something-Rose]

BTW, if we follow the NW vows which talk about a sword and a horn and these two things are in fact not just metaphors but also important objects in the Battle for the Dawn, then shouldn't there be a shield as well? 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

32 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Yeah, and as far as the solar eclipse goes, perhaps the second moon happened to fall in the path of the comet when it was in the eclipse position. Or, if we're going the magic route, perhaps the celestial alignment was perfect for some blood magic/psionic presence to pull the comet towards the earth, and thereby hitting the moon.

This is to account for the moon meteors? A thousand, thousand dragons...

Quote

 

That can be explained with comets as well:

A meteor shower results from an interaction between a planet, such as Earth, and streams of debris from a comet. Comets can produce debris by water vapor drag, as demonstrated by Fred Whipple in 1951,[24] and by breakup. Whipple envisioned comets as "dirty snowballs," made up of rock embedded in ice, orbiting the Sun. The "ice" may be water, methane, ammonia, or other volatiles, alone or in combination. The "rock" may vary in size from a dust mote to a small boulder. Dust mote sized solids are orders of magnitude more common than those the size of sand grains, which, in turn, are similarly more common than those the size of pebbles, and so on. When the ice warms and sublimates, the vapor can drag along dust, sand, and pebbles.

 

It can also accounts for smaller size meteors making it to the planet.

Meteor shower - Wikipedia

Certainly possible. I am a fan of Moon Meteor theory, though.  

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

BTW, if we follow the NW vows which talk about a sword and a horn and these two things are in fact not just metaphors but also important objects in the Battle for the Dawn, then shouldn't there be a shield as well? 

I think the Wall itself could be referred to as a shield.  Light is also a shield.

A curtain wall: a fortified wall around a medieval castle, typically one linking towers together.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Certainly possible. I am a fan of Moon Meteor theory, though.  

That's OK.  I like LML.  I have read some of his early essays and I think he's charming and entertaining.  He certainly loves a good puzzle!

[TheBlackSwan]

16 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

BTW, if we follow the NW vows which talk about a sword and a horn and these two things are in fact not just metaphors but also important objects in the Battle for the Dawn, then shouldn't there be a shield as well? 

« I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. » ^^

[Alexis-something-Rose]

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think the Wall itself could be referred to as a shield.  Light is also a shield.

A curtain wall: a fortified wall around a medieval castle, typically one linking towers together.

It's not the Wall itself that is the "shield." It's the magic that was used to raise it that stops the monsters from coming south. The dream that Jon has in Jon XII, ADwD, has dead men swarming the Wall makes it seem like it has become useless. It's not even that the Wall has been breeched in Jon's dream. He is atop it fighting wights who have reached the top.

I just find it interesting that we go from the vows that are a metaphor of what the NW is or supposed to be when we read them for the first time turn out to be more than that. Now that sword in the darkness is an actual sword, Dawn/Lightbringer/dragonsteel. And the horn that wakes the sleepers is very likely an actual horn and probably the Horn of Winter, something the warns of Winter, the same way the words of the Starks warn of Winter.

That leaves out the shield. 

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do like the idea that Longclaw is Mormont's Torch and that it can be made into a fiery sword. However, I still think there is more than one way to magic up a sword and I'm hard pressed to just look for one light emitting sword.  Especially when we know that obsidian can be used to do just that.  So I think the Dawn Sword and AA's Lightbringer are two entirely different legendary weapons.  

As for the sword Ice. I don't think we should be looking for a valyrian steel blade.  House Stark's ancestral sword could be the Wall itself with all it's sword and ice dragon imagery.  The most effective weapon that can be used against the darkness is light and I can imagine lighting up the Wall to make a shield using these other swords,  Chief among them the Dawn Sword if anyone can figure out how to flip the switch.  But is has to make it's way to the Wall.

As for who can claim it; I think the sword will have several sword bearers on it's journey beginning with Edric Dayne and then Brienne.  Whether she wields it herself as the Just Maid and passes it onto the Perfect Knight will be interesting to see.

As for Joramund's Horn of Winter;  it appears that horn is in Sam's possession but the article needed to repair it is in Tormund's possession.   

Edit:

The horn is cracked and chipped at the rim:

Could it be missing a metal band?

The cracked horn appears to be banded in bronze:

Or has Jon mistaken old gold for bronze:

 

And I like your examination of our little horn.  Your quotes only further support the assertion.  So yah, a piece of puzzle.  And isn't it so interesting that there is gold among the Wildlings?  Where might that have come from?  

Haha, you know me well.  Of course I'm trying to figure out who might wield Dawn in this great battle I envision.  I will be honest.  For all I've gained on Dawn I really only ever suspected Jon would be the guy.  All this wonderful discussion about TSOM and Ghalladon of Morne.  I think it began to happen some pages back when I began to see this was far more about the knight than the sword.   Brienne gets my vote in nearly all the knightly virtue.   If the title is reliant on some chivalric observation, she fits quite comfortably.  How many great knights of history is lady Brienne of Tarth associated with?  She usually ends up representing Just Maid in my thoughts.  She really could be an SOtM.

But what if the title doesn't rely on virtue.  The World Book tells us SOtM is a knight of House Dayne.  So what does it take to be a knight considered worthy of the title really look like?  I don't really have enough one on one with Arthur to really get a full sense of him.   He was almost comically courteous allowing The Smiling Knight to grab a new weapon.   That's like Robert getting his maesters for Selmy when he fell.  Highbrow hero worship maybe but I thought it was act of admiration and respect.   The way a gentleman warrior would behave.  I digress, sorry.  We know a very few things about Arthur Dayne, who is the obvious character Martin chose to create the persona of a legendary knight.  Not enough to really pin down the prerequisites for being called Sword of the Morning.   

There is always a chance that it requires far less than I suppose.   Dayne blood and decent martial skill may be all there really is to it.  

[Curled Finger]

37 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Certainly possible. I am a fan of Moon Meteor theory, though.  

What is that exactly?  

[Curled Finger]

47 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

BTW, if we follow the NW vows which talk about a sword and a horn and these two things are in fact not just metaphors but also important objects in the Battle for the Dawn, then shouldn't there be a shield as well? 

Absolutely--whatcha got? 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

What is that exactly?  

It's the idea that the Long Night was caused by a comet crashing into a second Moon and causing a magical impact winter--and that something similar will happen to bring on a new Long Night.

It was advanced by David Lightbringer, formerly Lucifer Means Lightbringer, or LmL.

He made some recent videos that summarize it pretty nicely:

 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

It's the idea that the Long Night was caused by a comet crashing into a second Moon and causing a magical impact winter--and that something similar will happen to bring on a new Long Night.

It was advanced by David Lightbringer, formerly Lucifer Means Lightbringer, or LmL.

He made some recent videos that summarize it pretty nicely:

 

Thanks.  I didn't realize I missed so much of the conversation and we all appreciate someone new contributing.  LmL, I should have known, but I was reading posts bottom to top.  Thank you for the link.  

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That leaves out the shield. 

Here's a shield of light or shield wall made of magic:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Here's another shield that is very suggestive:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

 

It suggests to me that the power/magic of the weirwood acts a shield.  Since the oath of the Kingsguard is modeled after the oath of the Night Watch; what do you think the three white stallions represent?  The elements that support the shield?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

45 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Absolutely--whatcha got? 

I got nothing! But when someone goes to war in ASoIaF, they have swords and shields and horns/trumpets.

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter

Actually about this, it sort of connects with that quote about the map earlier, no?

The king laid his bright blade down on the map, along the Wall, its steel shimmering like sunlight on water. 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Actually about this, it sort of connects with that quote about the map earlier, no?

The king laid his bright blade down on the map, along the Wall, its steel shimmering like sunlight on water. 

It certainly does.  There is more than one Wall.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

The question is whether the is a 3rd wall that isn't as obvious.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

No happy choice. Sam thought of all the trials that he and Gilly suffered, Craster's Keep and the death of the Old Bear, snow and ice and freezing winds, days and days and days of walking, the wights at Whitetree, Coldhands and the tree of ravens, the Wall, the Wall, the Wall, the Black Gate beneath the earth. What had it all been for? No happy choices and no happy endings.

 

  

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I have a theory that the people who settled Morne on Tarth are in fact people from the Mountains of the Morn in The Great Empire of the Dawn and that Galladon's sword the Just Maid is in fact Dawn. Galladon was the perfect knight. Only someone worthy can wield Dawn. And there's really a whole wordplay going on. The Mountains of the Morn (mountains of the morning), located in the Great Empire of the Dawn, for House Day(ne) with the sword Dawn.

If we take the story of Galladon and move it to the Mountains of the Morne, we end up with the same elements. The Maid becomes the Maiden-Made-of-Light. The mountains are near the Five Forts which we were told were built to defend against the demons of the Lion of Night. Lion of Night, Long Night. 

The Just Maid could not be checked by regular steel. When Jaime thinks back on Arthur fighting the Smiling Knight, he says that the Smiling Knight's sword was notched so badly that Arthur stopped the fight to allow him to get a new sword.

A flaming sword. The fire that burns against the cold.

Hey right back! I don't think the sword or the horn have anything to do with Euron. For me, it makes sense that both the horn and the sword are in the south where the opening salvo of the Long Night happens. As far as I understand it, the first Long Night didn't start in the north of Westeros, it started all the way in Essos.

The Horn of Winter and the Horn of Joramun are the same. The horn was allegedly used by Joramun once. But I don't think it has the power to bring the Wall down as has been speculated. I think Joramun blew the horn to bring the Stark in Winterfell down to the Wall because of what was going on at the Nightfort with the Night's King. The wildlings did not start out as wildlings living beyond the Wall. They were First Men who more than likely fought the Others during the Long Night. I think that they were members of the original Night's Watch who remained in the far north to warn against the Others. That's why the horn ends up north of the Wall. And when Jon finds it, he finds it with obsidian which we know the children were giving the NW and which we know kills the Others.

The horn is now with Sam of Horn Hill. And Sam seems to be slowly becoming the embodiment of his House. The sigil of House Tarly is the striding huntsman. Sam has been learning archery and he's getting good at it. And he's now in possession of the horn. 

I think the horn is meant to rally people to fight, waking the sleepers. So perhaps it has binding "properties" to it. In the song the Night that Ended, one of the Umbers present pulls takes out a horn that he blows just as the Night's Watch is about to go to war against the Others. It's a bit hard to explain while trying to make this as short as possible, but I have an essay on it here. Bran III, ACoK is the chapter that transitions things from the sword to the horn. Jon finds the cache or dragonglass right after.

One thing I forgot to mention in my OP is that Bran after remembering that Dawn was forged from the heart of a fallen star goes to bed with his head filled with knights fighting with swords that shone like starfire which is an immediate callback to the comet.

So I think you might like this if you haven't looked into it yet. So there is a lot of emphasis put on the map that Stannis uses in ADwD. I think there's foreshadowing of a falling out between Jon and Stannis, but there's just a lot more to unpack and I haven't had the time to circle back to it.

The king laid his bright blade down on the map, along the Wall, its steel shimmering like sunlight on water. (Jon I, ADwD)

Jon moved to the map. Candles had been placed at its corners to keep the hide from rolling up. A finger of warm wax was puddling out across the Bay of Seals, slow as a glacier. (Jon IV, ADwD)

I think there is some foreshadowing going on here regarding the Long Night.

Sorry, I couldn't bring myself to cut any of it.  Your opening statements really illuminate the concept of Long Night being nearly cyclical, having happened more than once as we have seen in so very many events and instances.  My thoughts wander to the regional names for our Last Hero--Yin Tar, Eldric Shadowchaser, Hyrkoon, Nepherion and of course, Azor Ahai and The Prince That was Promised.   We have two additional names for Lightbringer in Dawn and perhaps Just Maid.  It would be limiting not to imagine these are but then names that survived time--a lot of time.  

We have played with the NW vows a bit in this conversation.  The heavy symbolism in the (original) vows almost obscures the literal meanings of some of the words.  Sword, watcher, fire, light, horn and shield.  Sorry, you know I suck where symbolism gets interesting.  I am looking for a literal fulfillment in these words.  This horn wakes the sleepers and though there is discussion, the absolute meaning of sleepers in unknown.  Been my experience "sleepers" is a religious sort of term, like lamb.  It refers to people who are unenlightened, entrenched in the secular.  Wouldn't be a stretch to work this in with people who are unaware of the great danger approaching.   For all it's worth.  

 

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I am looking for a literal fulfillment in these words

When I can't get a direct answer, I start coming at it sideways.  Sorry.

This is a tough question.  Is the Dawn Sword the original sword Ice?  I don't think so.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

This horn wakes the sleepers and though there is discussion, the absolute meaning of sleepers in unknown.  Been my experience "sleepers" is a religious sort of term, like lamb.  It refers to people who are unenlightened, entrenched in the secular.  Wouldn't be a stretch to work this in with people who are unaware of the great danger approaching.

That's interesting. I'm not religious at all so some religious symbolism is completely lost on me. Like last week, I read somewhere that the fiery heart of R'hllor is the fiery heart of Jesus, which I mean I've seen before in statues or stained glass windows, but never paid attention to. 

It's important to add that the line about Joramun was that "Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth" tends to be equated with "giants waking in the earth" from TWoIaF which has to do with earthquakes following the breaking of the Arm of Dorne by the children. If Joramun blew the Horn of Winter because he saw that something not very kosher was happening at the Nightfort, then what's more "giant" than the King of Winter/King in the North showing up to answer his call? I hope that we do get TWoW so that we can find out about these things.

But I do have to say that I didn't really understand why George would say that he was rearranging the order of his chapters because I tended to look at a POV and their chapters for answers or whatever, when the reality is that he is stringing a story together throughout the chapters. So I'm glad I've finally arrived at the point where I don't look at the characters as being in their own separate stories. George set up Davos I, ACoK 10 with Dany X, AGoT 72, Prologue, ACoK, Sansa I, ACoK 1, Arya I, ACoK 2, Bran I, ACoK 4 and culminated everything in Bran III, ACoK 21 while introducing ushering in the horn through a song. Then he did the same exercise with Jon's chapters by having him introduce us to the Horn of Winter and to Joramun and it just goes from there.