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Fitting Dawn in with House Stark


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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

When I can't get a direct answer, I start coming at it sideways.  Sorry.

This is a tough question.  Is the Dawn Sword the original sword Ice?  I don't think so.  

Oh please, I am getting better with symbolism in no small part due to your patient explanations.  To the literal translation of the vows we have at least 1 sword and a horn.  What shield would work here?  Brienne's ala Dunk shield--some treasure as of yet unearthed from the Shield Hall?  I reckon Miss Mel is the fire.  If not there are always dragons.  Volcanoes!  There are many ways these parts can be identified for varied reasons.  

No, not Ice.  I had the idea some where long ago that Dawn, being so different from VS, may have a different use like a key--something like that.   Not killing Others, but used in the actual bringing of light to Westeros.  It needs to be there to complete whatever needs to be done to really finish this fight.  The Sword of the Morning wouldn't necessarily be a fighting hero--a sacrifice?  Conductor?  I dunno, but something else.  

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5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Oh please, I am getting better with symbolism in no small part due to your patient explanations.  To the literal translation of the vows we have at least 1 sword and a horn.  What shield would work here?  Brienne's ala Dunk shield--some treasure as of yet unearthed from the Shield Hall?  I reckon Miss Mel is the fire.  If not there are always dragons.  Volcanoes!  There are many ways these parts can be identified for varied reasons.  

No, not Ice.  I had the idea some where long ago that Dawn, being so different from VS, may have a different use like a key--something like that.   Not killing Others, but used in the actual bringing of light to Westeros.  It needs to be there to complete whatever needs to be done to really finish this fight.  The Sword of the Morning wouldn't necessarily be a fighting hero--a sacrifice?  Conductor?  I dunno, but something else.  

The Wall itself is a shield Wall.  I believe that is the shield of the NW oath.  Even better if it can be transformed into a storm of light using obsidian 'torches' and the dawn sword;  then it becomes another wall of light.  The men of the Watch are in essence shields themselves.  They are sworn shields that guard the realms of men..

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I don't think Longclaw or Mormont's Torch are the same thing as Lightbringer. I think the obsidian dagger, for which Jon later creates an "ugly" hilt out of wood, is Lightbringer. Or, at least, "A" Lightbringer. 

Although ... now that you mention it, Jon is carrying the torch as he follows Ghost through the pitch black darkness. Returning to the notion of people as personification of weapons or other important objects, this might mean that Jon Snow personifies Lightbringer. 

Here is the role of the torch in Jon Snow's hand:

Quote

A soft scrabbling noise made him turn. Jon moved toward the sound, stepping carefully among boulders and thornbushes. Behind a fallen tree, he came on Ghost again. The direwolf was digging furiously, kicking up dirt.

"What have you found?" Jon lowered the torch, revealing a rounded mound of soft earth. A grave, he thought. But whose?

He knelt, jammed the torch into the ground beside him. The soil was loose, sandy. Jon pulled it out by the fistful. There were no stones, no roots. Whatever was here had been put here recently. Two feet down, his fingers touched cloth. He had been expecting a corpse, fearing a corpse, but this was something else. He pushed against the fabric and felt small, hard shapes beneath, unyielding. There was no smell, no sign of graveworms. Ghost backed off and sat on his haunches, watching.

Jon brushed the loose soil away to reveal a rounded bundle perhaps two feet across. He jammed his fingers down around the edges and worked it loose. When he pulled it free, whatever was inside shifted and clinked. Treasure, he thought, but the shapes were wrong to be coins, and the sound was wrong for metal.

(ACoK, Jon IV)

There are numerous references to the comet as Mormont's Torch in the pages leading up to the obsidian cache. Here it is finally like a comet falling to earth and embedded in the soil. The greatsword Dawn was constructed from the heart of a fallen star (a magical stone). At the spot where the (Mormont's) torch is embedded in the earth, Jon Snow finds a magical stone (the maesters call it obsidian) and constructs a dagger. The dragonglass blade is lightbringer but the torch provides the fire that lights it. 

There is a lot of gravedigger symbolism in this passage, too. Although many (most) of us suspect that Sandor Clegane is the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle, we don't know if he is digging graves to bury people or digging graves to exume bodies.

Also significant in the excerpt is the reference to thornbushes. There is wordplay on throne / thorn  and Ser Alliser Thorne. When Ser Alliser travels to King's Landing to request support for the Night's Watch, Tyrion (who is sitting on the thornbush-like Iron Throne) says the court should provide money for spades so the Night's Watch can bury the dead. (He is joking because Ser Aliser has only a no-longer-alive severed hand that was supposed to be evidence of the Others.) "If you bury your dead, they won't come walking," Tyrion told him, and the court laughed openly. "Spades will end your troubles, with some strong backs to wield them." The fact that Jon Snow has to step carefully near the thornbush is probably an allusion to the Iron Throne, around which he has to navigate. 

Back to the gravedigger imagery. When he digs up the "grave" at the Fist, Jon Snow may or may not be the strong back who is ending the Night's Watch's troubles with the walking dead. We know that the Others will subsequently attack at the Fist. And yet Jon Snow has located the weapons that allow Sam Tarly to defeat a wight and discover the usefulness of dragonglass in fighting the White Walkers. Maybe it's one of those "double edged sword" situations where there are both advantages and disadvantages to digging. 

You know, while I'm frolicking merrily through the symbolism here, I have always wondered about the connection between the "ugly" homemade hilt on Jon's obsidian dagger and the "ugly" weapon carried by Gared in the AGoT prologue. The wordplay on Gared and dagger seemed obvious a long time ago, but now I'm putting it together with Gared suggesting that the rangers light a fire. Ser Waymar forbids him from lighting a fire. Seeing that the fire and obsidian dagger blade come together to create the Other-killing Lightbringer weapon, I wonder whether Gared was trying to create a "Flame on!" moment for himself, allowing him to effectively become Lightbringer and fight the White Walkers? 

Furthermore, Ned has to go and ruin Lightbringer/Gared by chopping his head off. Mormont later says he wishes Ned hadn't done this. Even Craster remembers Gared fondly. So when Jon Snow makes a wooden hilt for his obsidian dagger, is he symbolically putting Gared's head back on? (We see a similar act of sorcery performed by Qyburn when he turns headless Gregor Clegane into Ser Robert Strong.)

Also, sorcery is a sword without a hilt, Dalla tells Jon Snow. By putting a hilt on the blade, Jon Snow may be turning himself into a sorcerer, making it easier to grasp his blade. Jon Snow doesn't need a grumkin to magic up his blade; he can do it himself. 

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

The armbands were old gold, solid and heavy, engraved with the ancient runes of the First Men. ...

"No. I'll not have it said that Tormund Thunderfist made the free folk give up their treasures whilst he kept his own." He grinned. "But I'll keep the ring I wear about me member. Much bigger than those little things. On you it'd be a torque."

I've seen the theory that Tormund is the horn or that his armbands are missing pieces to activate the horn. Reading the excerpts you so kindly provided, I am struck by a new thought: what if Tormund's member is the Horn of Joramun? He talks about it a lot and tells stories about sex with a giantess and/or a bear. (Perhaps showing that he is a horny guy?) When Jon Snow was initially brought to Mance's tent, his first impression was that Tormund must be the King Beyond the Wall. He is soon directed to focus on Mance, but readers should never discount a character's first impressions, even if they are incorrect in the literal sense. 

Quote

Jon faced him. "If you've had the Horn of Joramun all along, why haven't you used it? Why bother building turtles and sending Thenns to kill us in our beds? If this horn is all the songs say, why not just sound it and be done?"

It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. "We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."

Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. "No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," he said.

(ASoS, Jon X)

This could be phallic imagery, highlighting Dalla's pregnancy (proof of Mance's potency as a father) and Mance then stroking his giant member, err, the great horn. Mance refers to needing more than one arrow and Jon Snow refers to arrowheads falling out of the horn he finds in the cache. Could the arrowheads represent sperm? They swim toward their target (an egg) like tiny guided missiles or arrows. It's interesting to note that Sam Tarly grows a fat pink mast and has sex with Gilly after Jon Snow gives him the horny horn.

(Complicated aside: If Mance is a symbolic Rhaegar, as many people have noted in the parallels between the characters, his need for more than one arrow could be like Rhaegar's determination to have more than two children or more than one lover. You need a back-up plan in case one or more heirs dies or is killed.)

I have also seen an analysis of Ned's scene with Catelyn in the god's wood, wiping the blood from his great sword, as phallic symbolism. 

But the great horn Mance is fondling here will eventually be burned by Melisandre, who forces the Free Folk to throw twigs of a weirwood onto the fire. This could bring us back to the torch that "ignites" Jon Snow's obsidian blade: like the obsidian, perhaps the magic horn will revive only after it has had contact with fire - maybe even weirwood fire. To achieve this, GRRM has given us three horns: the "decoy" that Mance shows to Jon Snow and that is later burned; Tormund's giant member; and the broken horn filled with dragon glass arrowheads ( = dragon seed). And then Euron appears with the dragonbinder horn, so we are back up to three. 

In addition to the revivifying fire that may "wake" the horn, similar to the hatching of Dany's dragons in Drogo's pyre, there is also a human sacrifice to trigger the magical rebirth: Rattleshirt (a symbolic Ned Stark, imho) dies partly from fire but mostly from arrows unleashed at Jon Snow's command. Like the Stark lord of legend killing his father, Bael the Bard. It seems that Jon Snow takes Mance's advice and hunts with more than one arrow. 

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned Maege Mormont and Brienne as the women warriors who wield morning star weapons. I have seen speculation that Tormund is the father of Maege's daughters, explaining his story about having sex with a bear. He also sleeps inside of a giantess who mistakes him for her baby and breast feeds him. Perhaps it is significant that we are constantly reminded of Brienne's great height. If Tormund sleeps with Brienne, this may be the unification of magic horn and giant that is necessary to bring down The Wall or end the Long Night or resolve some other conflict. Perhaps also relevant:

  • The burned horn came from a giant's grave.
  • The Wall was built by giants. The horn of Winter, properly blown, is supposed to take down the Wall.
  • Tormund's penis is referred to as his giant member. 
10 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So I think you might like this if you haven't looked into it yet. So there is a lot of emphasis put on the map that Stannis uses in ADwD. I think there's foreshadowing of a falling out between Jon and Stannis, but there's just a lot more to unpack and I haven't had the time to circle back to it.

The king laid his bright blade down on the map, along the Wall, its steel shimmering like sunlight on water. (Jon I, ADwD)

Jon moved to the map. Candles had been placed at its corners to keep the hide from rolling up. A finger of warm wax was puddling out across the Bay of Seals, slow as a glacier. (Jon IV, ADwD)

I think there is some foreshadowing going on here regarding the Long Night.

You're right - I love this a lot. 

I see Stannis as a mentor for Jon Snow - yet another father figure - so I'm not sure about a falling out. The bright blade at the Wall might be a way of showing Jon Snow the true identity of The Wall as Lightbringer. (Or "A" Lightbringer.) 

I've been thinking that the Hightower in Old Town has to be a giant glass candle. This image of the Stannis's map with candles at each corner implies that here should be three more. Queen's Crown? The Shadow Tower? The Tower of the Hand? If they are supposed to be candles, the Tower of the Hand would be a good candidate since Cersei set it on fire. Maybe the Winterfell library is one of the candles. With wax puddling at the Bay of Seals, maybe the fourth candle will be Eastwatch-by-the-sea? 

Or maybe the invasive "finger" of wax alludes to Littlefinger and his subtle moves to manipulate Westeros. 

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55 minutes ago, Seams said:

I've been thinking that the Hightower in Old Town has to be a giant glass candle.

The Hightower in AFfC is described as a sword;

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword.

The Hightower with its beacon fires, bright against the dawn sounds a whole lot like a flaming sword to me. The sigil of House Hightower shows the tower being white. There's Lightbringer imagery going on here.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

I've seen the theory that Tormund is the horn or that his armbands are missing pieces to activate the horn. Reading the excerpts you so kindly provided, I am struck by a new thought: what if Tormund's member is the Horn of Joramun? He talks about it a lot and tells stories about sex with a giantess and/or a bear.

Another of Tormund's titles is Hornblower and I think Tormund is a descendent of Joramund with the rings passed down father to son.   It may be that Tormund also knows the meaning of the runes on the rings; the spell or words to activate the horn.

I think the Tormund is boasting about the size of his member and mocking Jon for having the smaller horn and not knowing how to use it.  He gives him magic rings to repair his horn.

Which is essentially what has to happen.  One of the rings will fit the horn and compress it to seal the crack.  I'm guessing it's the ring Tormund keeps for his own ancestral horn.

Jon's first impression of Tormund as King Beyond the Wall makes a connection to his ancestor Joramund in a subtle way.  They are Kings Beyond the Wall and Hornblowers.  The Horn of Winter rightly belongs to Tormund.

The large war horn seems to be a decoy whose purpose is unclear.  John is not sure what beast would have such a large horn but I suspect it is made of mammoth ivory which can turn black if it is very old.  This would make it a giant's horn.

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7 hours ago, Seams said:

There are numerous references to the comet as Mormont's Torch in the pages leading up to the obsidian cache. Here it is finally like a comet falling to earth and embedded in the soil. The greatsword Dawn was constructed from the heart of a fallen star (a magical stone). At the spot where the (Mormont's) torch is embedded in the earth, Jon Snow finds a magical stone (the maesters call it obsidian) and constructs a dagger. The dragonglass blade is lightbringer but the torch provides the fire that lights it. 

Oh I like the idea that Jon is Mormont's Torch especially after Jon burned Othor.

7 hours ago, Seams said:

This could be phallic imagery, highlighting Dalla's pregnancy (proof of Mance's potency as a father) and Mance then stroking his giant member, err, the great horn. Mance refers to needing more than one arrow and Jon Snow refers to arrowheads falling out of the horn he finds in the cache. Could the arrowheads represent sperm? They swim toward their target (an egg) like tiny guided missiles or arrows. It's interesting to note that Sam Tarly grows a fat pink mast and has sex with Gilly after Jon Snow gives him the horny horn.

I'm not sure about the arrowheads.  When Mance says he wants more than one arrow in his quiver; he's saying he wants to keep his options open while assessing Jon.  But given all sexual insinuation of the broader conversation; he could be talking about his own proclivities.

The obsidian spilling from the horn reminds of Ned's dream of the rose pedals falling dead from Lyanna's hand.

 

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On 1/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Curled Finger said:

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers.  TWOIAF Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

Dawn is the oldest surviving sword in ASOIAF.  She is rich in lore and history.  Said to have been made from the heart of a falling star Dawn’s appearance is like no other in Westeros.  Pale as milkglass, this is no castle forged, perhaps not even spell forged sword.  Dawn is a sword of destiny.   While Lightbringer is called the Red Sword of Heroes the name shares meaning with Dawn.  Lightbringer isn’t said to be made of any special material.  No, it is the tempering of the steel in Azor Ahai’s beloved wife’s heart.  Dual sacrifice brought the magic to Lightbringer after it was made.   Dawn is set apart from all others in its material, the heart of a celestial body..a stone of magical powers.   This reminds me of Bran’s tears at his vision of the heart of winter.   Can’t help but wonder how that all connects. 

Many readers have accepted that Dawn is in fact Lightbringer.   Though possible, I am simply not certain.   How can I get Dawn directly to the Starks and The Long Night?  Sure some current character can take Dawn north and we can call it a day.   Still that doesn’t explain how Dawn was originally connected or why this is a Dayne sword in the south.   The problem lies north, not south where the Sword of the Morning resides or will eventually.   If Dawn is Lightbringer it’s got to be connected to House Stark somehow.  Hearts indeed. 

House Stark was not the 1st of the 1st Men.   No, House Stark seems to have been established after the events of The Long Night after The Last Hero and pre Night’s Watch group pushed The Others back.  History decrees this pushing back was in some way a result of the intercession of the Children of the Forest and perhaps the introduction to dragon glass.  8 to 10,000 years later here is Ned Stark and Howland Reed killing the last Sword of the Morning.  We are told there was no time for returning the fallen members of Team Ned or even Arthur Dayne, much less his bothers of the Kingsguard.   No, all Ned had time to do was gather up Lyanna’s body, Dustin’s horse, baby Jon and Dawn.   Why would Dawn’s return be such a pressing matter during this?  Sure, honor no doubt plays into this, but it’s not the only motive.   Ned knows Dawn must return to Starfall just as a Stark must be in Winterfell.  Something far older than House Stark is at play in this return. 

Sword of the Morning is an interesting title for the only person who can wield legendary Dawn.  ASOIAF is rife with concepts of heroism from Sandor Clegane declaring with all his heart that men are all just killers to the perfect Lady Gallahad herself, Brienne of Tarth to a certain Kingslayer who remembers why he became a knight.  There are bastards and second sons and inconvenient heirs and little girls who can all qualify as heroes here.  All it takes is courage to follow through on doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do.  And a magic sword.  With this in mind I offer that The Last Hero was a bastard son of House Dayne.   It was the Dawn Age that gave way to the Age of heroes, after all. 

The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.  TWOIAF Dorne: The Andals Arrive

I submit our Last Hero was the 1st Sword of the Morning and that Dawn gained her name in the events ending The Long Night.   Yes, that would make House Stark a cadet branch of House Dayne, sort of, way way back.  Long enough to forget the blood tie at any rate. 

Now, wait a minute, the Starks had their own cool mysterious sword in Ice forever, you say.   Right.  What does Ice look like?  Well it’s sort of white-ish and crystally and shiny, isn’t it?  Glaciers look like milkglass if nothing else.   Are Dawn and Ice one in the same?  I don’t think so.   It’s possible Dawn served as Ice in the beginning, a few months, a couple of years, but Dawn was tied to House Dayne specifically.   Get your own sword, Starks.  Returning Dawn to Starfall may have begun right there with a Dayne bastard returning this wondrous magical sword to its proper place.   (Or the Lord of Starfall coming for it.)  Ah good.   So where did Ice come from?   A subject for another topic at another time.  

I suppose you could always rewrite the story to bring Dawn to Jon Snow Wight.  What Dayne there is in a Stark will be very small.  There are other families with more Dayne in them.  

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16 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

He made some recent videos that summarize it pretty nicely:

Jeepers what's with the dark glasses and Cecil B. Demille overture? This is not the LML I remember, :D

I think he takes the two moon myth too literally even if you throw in magic as a disclaimer.  A night that lasts a generation would be 12 to 14 years and that would be an extinction level event.  The Doom of Valyria didn't even cause this kind of world-wide devastation.  I'm inclined to think that the darkness that covered the world had more to do with evil and dark magic spreading from Asshai and what lies beyond.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Jeepers what's with the dark glasses and Cecil B. Demille overture? This is not the LML I remember, :D

I think he takes the two moon myth too literally even if you throw in magic as a disclaimer.  A night that lasts a generation would be 12 to 14 years and that would be an extinction level event.  The Doom of Valyria didn't even cause this kind of world-wide devastation.  I'm inclined to think that the darkness that covered the world had more to do with evil and dark magic spreading from Asshai and what lies beyond.

Yes, he has committed to being a full-on YouTube content creator for Patreon contributions, and everything that seems to entail. As for me, I appreciate his goofy humor, and--even better--his brief and concise summary videos as opposed to the multi-hour ones he started with.

I think a big reason why I like Moon Meteor Theory is because it explains future and deep past mysteries with elements that have featured prominently in the story, and thus would make for an economic utilization of narrative resources. Not only would it explain the Long Night (whose duration we can't really be sure, granted), it could also explain the notion that there were once regular seasons, and now they are irregular. The destruction and absence of a second moon could have upended the position and revolution course of the earth relative to the sun. 

What LmL's Moon Meteor Theory does not do, however, is explain how the comet would be controlled, beyond assuming that a dark sorcerer did it. My own working theory is that the weirwoods play a big role here, and that the psionic manipulation of astral bodies could be related to how they breed and proliferate, i.e., via panspermia. Just as the mud-pots proved to be bio-engineers to rival Haviland Tuf, I think the weirwoods have their own form of "seed ships," and that Garth Greenhand/God-On-Earth was a walker (i.e, male) of this species. And the spreading of seeds would include some rocket launching into the heavens, as well as pulling and guiding astral bodies from the heavens. GRRM has said that the explanation of the irregular seasons would be "magic," but what that actually means is ambiguous. For me, an astral intervention by psionic plant things juiced up by blood sacrifice sounds pretty darn magical. :)

 

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14 hours ago, LynnS said:

The Wall itself is a shield Wall.  I believe that is the shield of the NW oath.  Even better if it can be transformed into a storm of light using obsidian 'torches' and the dawn sword;  then it becomes another wall of light.  The men of the Watch are in essence shields themselves.  They are sworn shields that guard the realms of men..

Well said!   Yes!   The Wall itself as well as the people who man it absolutely fit the shield concept.   Oh great, now you have me thinking about the Wildlings and repopulating castles along the Wall.  I think if I asked you about light I can refer back to your original ideas about the Wall and Lightbringer which are pretty spectacular.   Whatcha got for fire? 

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2 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

I suppose you could always rewrite the story to bring Dawn to Jon Snow Wight.  What Dayne there is in a Stark will be very small.  There are other families with more Dayne in them.  

Right, the Dayne amount of blood would be very small.    I don't know if you've ever played with the DNA break downs from ancestry.com.   Please keep in mind I'm not an expert in any way shape or form on any of this.   My friend has 5 sons all with the same biological father.  All 5 of the sons have varied degrees of the same DNA--including Neanderthal and races not readily seen in the appearance of these lovely men.  I don't know if Martin knows about these sciences or studies, but the real world findings do rather lend themselves to the idea that a characteristic like say magic could lie dormant in an offshoot line for millennia.  The Kings of Winter did all their defeating and marrying and combining of magical bloodlines thousands of years ago, but it's only now that we see the magic manifest in the Stark kids.   Like a latent gene or something along those lines.  

With so little information regarding the Daynes and Dawn and Sword of the Morning I could be completely way off.   But it is fun to consider.  

 

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10 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The Hightower in AFfC is described as a sword;

And beyond, where the Honeywine widened into Whispering Sound, rose the Hightower, its beacon fires bright against the dawn. From where it stood atop the bluffs of Battle Island, its shadow cut the city like a sword.

The Hightower with its beacon fires, bright against the dawn sounds a whole lot like a flaming sword to me. The sigil of House Hightower shows the tower being white. There's Lightbringer imagery going on here.

Gosh I wish I could remember exactly how the quote goes but there is something in the text that indicates you could see either the flame from the Hightower at the Wall or vice versa.   

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11 hours ago, Seams said:

I've seen the theory that Tormund is the horn or that his armbands are missing pieces to activate the horn. Reading the excerpts you so kindly provided, I am struck by a new thought: what if Tormund's member is the Horn of Joramun? He talks about it a lot and tells stories about sex with a giantess and/or a bear. (Perhaps showing that he is a horny guy?) When Jon Snow was initially brought to Mance's tent, his first impression was that Tormund must be the King Beyond the Wall. He is soon directed to focus on Mance, but readers should never discount a character's first impressions, even if they are incorrect in the literal sense. 

This could be phallic imagery, highlighting Dalla's pregnancy (proof of Mance's potency as a father) and Mance then stroking his giant member, err, the great horn. Mance refers to needing more than one arrow and Jon Snow refers to arrowheads falling out of the horn he finds in the cache. Could the arrowheads represent sperm? They swim toward their target (an egg) like tiny guided missiles or arrows. It's interesting to note that Sam Tarly grows a fat pink mast and has sex with Gilly after Jon Snow gives him the horny horn.

 

I'm not used to you making me blush!  I do hope the stroking of Tormund's member isn't what has to happen to wake the sleepers though the idea does give new meaning to my interpretation of sleepers.   :o

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4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Gosh I wish I could remember exactly how the quote goes but there is something in the text that indicates you could see either the flame from the Hightower at the Wall or vice versa.   

Some claimed a man could see all the way to the Wall from the top. (prologue, AFfC)

There's some really nice exposition in this chapter.

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13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Right, the Dayne amount of blood would be very small.   

Small but fairly recent in the history of the 7Ks. If RLJ turns out to be true, then Jon's great great grandmother was a Dayne of Starfall. 

Personally, though, I think that the Dayne are custodians of the sword, not its owners. 

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19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Personally, though, I think that the Dayne are custodians of the sword, not its owners. 

That's certainly a possibility, one that people tend not to consider. Obviously Arthur Dayne with Dawn calls to mind our own tales about King Arthur and Excaliber, but GRRM always puts his own spin on the old stories. Perhaps this is one such spin.

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40 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

That's certainly a possibility, one that people tend not to consider. Obviously Arthur Dayne with Dawn calls to mind our own tales about King Arthur and Excaliber, but GRRM always puts his own spin on the old stories. Perhaps this is one such spin.

Yet when Arthur died, Excalibur was returned to its faerie custodians.  Though perhaps this goes hand in hand with the notion that Arthur is not really dead, which in turn perhaps could imply that the faerie custodians are merely holding the blade for Arthur.

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2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Yes, he has committed to being a full-on YouTube content creator for Patreon contributions, and everything that seems to entail. As for me, I appreciate his goofy humor, and--even better--his brief and concise summary videos as opposed to the multi-hour ones he started with.

Sure not everyone can sit through a long podcast.  I just prefer it to the news of the day.  I have only sampled a few podcasts most of which I have forgotten, only recently tuning into Radio Westeros.  I tend to lose interest if the preamble is too long or they ramble in general.  Sometimes they have a bit too much corn.

But I respect your intelligence.  I just disagree with your conclusion. I think the source of the 'darkness' that covers the land may prove to be in Asshai.  I don't think that has been fully explored along with the meaning of darkness.   Although the panspermia idea is interesting and I don't have a problem with life on planets being seeded by comets. It's a viable explanation for the origin of the COTF/Weirwood symbiotic organism.  The God's Eye lake could be the remnant of a very old impact crater.  We are bumping up against sci-fi crossing over into fantasy. :cheers:

EDIT:  I should clarify what I mean by a generation.  I count that from birth to coming of age or adulthood.  In these early societies that would be roughly around 12 for girls and 14 for boys.

Edited by LynnS
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12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Sure not everyone can sit through a long podcast.  I just prefer it to the news of the day.  I have only sampled a few podcasts most of which I have forgotten, only recently tuning into Radio Westeros.  I tend to lose interest if the preamble is too long or they ramble in general.  Sometimes they have a bit too much corn.

But I respect your intelligence.  I just disagree with your conclusion. I think the source of the 'darkness' that covers the land may prove to be in Asshai.  I don't think that has been fully explored along with the meaning of darkness.   Although the panspermia idea is interesting and I don't have a problem with life on planets being seeded by comets. It's a viable explanation for the origin of the COTF/Weirwood symbiotic organism.  The God's Eye lake could be the remnant of a very old impact crater.  We are bumping up against sci-fi crossing over into fantasy. :cheers:

I only meant to say that I don't care for LmL's longer videos, not long-form media in general. I think a shorter format forces LmL to marshal his best arguments and tightly organize his points, rather than ramble on and freestyle, as it were. I love Radio Westeros and History of Westeros, particularly because their entries are so well structured.

As for the Long Night, maybe we don't disagree all too much. In my head, there have been many smaller meteor/projectile attacks throughout history (including the Isle of Faces), with the Shadowlands representing the impact site of the most catastrophic event, the one that actually brought on the Long Night. But, this is just tinfoil, I fully admit, and people are free to disagree.

 

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