Richard L = Lem L theory and the role of Thoros of Myr

[EggBlue]

many believe Lem Lemoncloak to be Richard Lonmouth , the Knight of Skulls and Kisses. I am one of those many! but if this is the case then Thoros of Myr must know him from their time at court during Targaryen era. on the other hand , Richard must be in some sort of hiding with his new identity. so how come he was in Beric's party? how come Thoros never revealed Richard's identity to the others? and why would they work with each other? 

[Mourning Star]

Both the Red Priest and the the Knight of Skulls and Kisses were notably drinking companions of Robert Baratheon's. Maybe they were friends?

Justice. I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king's men, knights, and heroes ... but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.

[Odej]

I believe Lem Lemoncloat/Richard Lonmouth is another man broken by the war who lost everything that gave sense to his life. If he fought for Rhaegar, his friend and prince, he lost; if he fought for Robert, he won but still lost his wife and daughter.

Thoros and Beric gave him a chance of a new life and Thoros, as a old and good friend, didn't exposed him.

 

[Mister Smikes]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

many believe Lem Lemoncloak to be Richard Lonmouth

Many believe it, but no-one else understands why they believe it.  I guess because it is possible and because there is no particular evidence against it.

Lem exists so that the BwB can have a few colorful members.  Beyond that, Lem is a red herring.  He exists to briefly assume the Hound identity, and resemble Sandor in some ways and Brienne in other ways.  He exists so that when, in future volumes, a mystery warrior shows up wearing the Hound helm, readers will debate whether it is really Sandor or really Lem, and no-one will suspect that it is actually Brienne

But I guess he could be Richard Lonmouth too for all I know.  Certainly, Lem is not his real name.

[Mourning Star]

19 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Many believe it, but no-one else understands why they believe it.  I guess because it is possible and because there is no particular evidence against it.

Lem exists so that the BwB can have a few colorful members.  Beyond that, Lem is a red herring.  He exists to briefly assume the Hound identity, and resemble Sandor in some ways and Brienne in other ways.  He exists so that when, in future volumes, a mystery warrior shows up wearing the Hound helm, readers will debate whether it is really Sandor or really Lem, and no-one will suspect that it is actually Brienne

But I guess he could be Richard Lonmouth too for all I know.  Certainly, Lem is not his real name.

I understand why I believe it. 

And I highly doubt there will be no payoff to this line:

Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard!

[Mister Smikes]

45 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I understand why I believe it. 

Sure you do.  It is only us non-believers who are doomed to confusion.

45 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

And I highly doubt there will be no payoff to this line:

Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard!

It's a funny taunt.  But I very much doubt that Lem's cloak is a formerly white cloak that has been stained yellow by piss.  It seems more likely that it is a formerly green cloak that has faded to yellow, but which still retains traces of the original green.  Nor was Lonmouth ever a member of any kingsguard, as far as we know.  But I suppose it is part of the theory that he secretly was one, or something.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

many believe Lem Lemoncloak to be Richard Lonmouth , the Knight of Skulls and Kisses. I am one of those many! but if this is the case then Thoros of Myr must know him from their time at court during Targaryen era. on the other hand , Richard must be in some sort of hiding with his new identity. so how come he was in Beric's party? how come Thoros never revealed Richard's identity to the others? and why would they work with each other? 

As our friend @Odej said above the BwB is where broken men find new meaning.  Their pasts don't matter in this effort.  

What is so fun about Lem/Lonmouoth is that he was a good friend of Rhaegar and may have participated in the events surrounding Lyanna's disappearance or move to Dorne.  This guy doesn't get enough credit for knowing things and maybe he didn't, but he was there at least in the beginning.  He knows something.  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

Sure you do.  It is only us non-believers who are doomed to confusion.

It's a funny taunt.  But I very much doubt that Lem's cloak is a formerly white cloak that has been stained yellow by piss.  It seems more likely that it is a formerly green cloak that has faded to yellow, but which still retains traces of the original green.  Nor was Lonmouth ever a member of any kingsguard, as far as we know.  But I suppose it is part of the theory that he secretly was one, or something.

https://ladygwynhyfvar.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

Original theory you may enjoy.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

many believe Lem Lemoncloak to be Richard Lonmouth , the Knight of Skulls and Kisses. I am one of those many! but if this is the case then Thoros of Myr must know him from their time at court during Targaryen era. on the other hand , Richard must be in some sort of hiding with his new identity. so how come he was in Beric's party? how come Thoros never revealed Richard's identity to the others? and why would they work with each other? 

There are red priest in Old Town and in Dorne near sunspear, so I always wonder if Thoros of Myr ever was in Dorne. He was at K.L. however and likely knew Rhaegar, especially if Rhaegar is prophecy obsessed. So I think Thoros of Myr knew Rhaegar and Richard LonMouth, along with Tom O'Sevens who have have competed against Rhaegar during the Tourney of Singers held at Harrenhal. 

 Richard distrust's the Ghost of Highheart unlike Tom, as they likely visited her with Rhaegar, and ended with Rhaegar's death. So I can see Richard not trusting her. Thoros I would think would take her a little more seriously, even if its just to think she's an opposing type of magic to their fire magic. Blood magic and fire magic may not be so different though as Melisandre uses them together often or not.

Rhaegar's friends Arthur Dayne and Lewyn Martell along with his wife Elia and Arthurs sister Ashara all live in Dorne where there are red temples of the fire priest. So I think this is all part of what ever Rhaegar may have been up to in his prophecy obsession. Having likely consulted the Ghost of HighHeart who made the original prediction that the Prince that was promised would be born from the line of Rhaella and Aerys. All those incest marriages may have been just so Rhaegar could be born, but he would still need to consult the woods witch to find out who his mate should be.

This is more area where Lyanna falls out of favor for me as the Ghost of Highheart seems unaware of Arya and when she does look into her, calls her "Dark Heart" and tells her to be gone. Leaving me to take this encounter as evidence the Ghost of High Heart did not suggest a Stark to Rhaegar as his mate to bring the promised prince. Or else the Ghost of High heart would likely know from her visions who Arya is and her connection to Lyanna. Being Arya even looks like Lyanna.

With Dorne having red priest, Lemon trees, House Dayne, and all the other clues just leads me to think Ashara was who Rheagar was going to choose, not Lyanna. 

When did Rhaegar even go to the Ghost of Highheart? Presumable before going to Harrenhal no? After his son was born and before Harrenhal. As Harrenhal happened in last two months of 281 with Rheagar leaving the within the first month of 282 to supposedly take Lyanna. 

So he may have gone after Harrenhal as well as before, or only one of those two times. (I would think he would go before Harrenhal at the least, if not afterwards too if he really met Lyanna and wanted her instead.)

I think the plan was always Ashara Dayne.

The Brotherhood wasn't even looking for Arya or recognized her, it was only cause of the Northmen Harwin knew her. Had it not been for him, they may have just ransomed her or something. Some left the group too when Stone Heart took over, but only Edric Dayne and Anguy of noteworthy status. 

This is interesting though as most of Rhaegar's possible friends stay with Stone Heart, while Edric Dayne leaves with Anguy.

The only person I can think Anguy is, is the son of Fletcher Dick, who Ulmer at the Wall goes on about as both were in the Kings Wood Brotherhood. Ulmer put an arrow through the hand of Gerold Hightower to steal a kiss from a Dornish princess (Elia).

So I couldn't say why Thoros, Lem, or Tom are following Stoneheart, but getting Edric Dayne away from her does make some sense. Though I couldn't fully say why other than Ghost of HighHeart didn't know Arya, or like Arya calling her Dark Heart. With Arya's mom returning from the dead. The Ghost of Highheart likely chose Ashara Dayne, and so with all of that. Keeping Edric from Stone Heart makes some vague sense to me.

 

[EggBlue]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

As our friend @Odej said above the BwB is where broken men find new meaning.  Their pasts don't matter in this effort.  

What is so fun about Lem/Lonmouoth is that he was a good friend of Rhaegar and may have participated in the events surrounding Lyanna's disappearance or move to Dorne.  This guy doesn't get enough credit for knowing things and maybe he didn't, but he was there at least in the beginning.  He knows something.  

yes, he must know something. what he knows would be in category of  speculating about Rhaegar's journey.

so , any idea where he went after the Trident? and in the beginning of the series? we know he joined king's men for fighting the mountain but he seemed to be known in Riverlands. maybe his motivation was revenge for the sack? and any idea how and when his wife and daughter died? during the sack?

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There are red priest in Old Town and in Dorne near sunspear, so I always wonder if Thoros of Myr ever was in Dorne. He was at K.L. however and likely knew Rhaegar, especially if Rhaegar is prophecy obsessed. So I think Thoros of Myr knew Rhaegar and Richard LonMouth, along with Tom O'Sevens who have have competed against Rhaegar during the Tourney of Singers held at Harrenhal. 

 Richard distrust's the Ghost of Highheart unlike Tom, as they likely visited her with Rhaegar, and ended with Rhaegar's death. So I can see Richard not trusting her. Thoros I would think would take her a little more seriously, even if its just to think she's an opposing type of magic to their fire magic. Blood magic and fire magic may not be so different though as Melisandre uses them together often or not.

Rhaegar's friends Arthur Dayne and Lewyn Martell along with his wife Elia and Arthurs sister Ashara all live in Dorne where there are red temples of the fire priest. So I think this is all part of what ever Rhaegar may have been up to in his prophecy obsession. Having likely consulted the Ghost of HighHeart who made the original prediction that the Prince that was promised would be born from the line of Rhaella and Aerys. All those incest marriages may have been just so Rhaegar could be born, but he would still need to consult the woods witch to find out who his mate should be.

This is more area where Lyanna falls out of favor for me as the Ghost of Highheart seems unaware of Arya and when she does look into her, calls her "Dark Heart" and tells her to be gone. Leaving me to take this encounter as evidence the Ghost of High Heart did not suggest a Stark to Rhaegar as his mate to bring the promised prince. Or else the Ghost of High heart would likely know from her visions who Arya is and her connection to Lyanna. Being Arya even looks like Lyanna.

With Dorne having red priest, Lemon trees, House Dayne, and all the other clues just leads me to think Ashara was who Rheagar was going to choose, not Lyanna. 

When did Rhaegar even go to the Ghost of Highheart? Presumable before going to Harrenhal no? After his son was born and before Harrenhal. As Harrenhal happened in last two months of 281 with Rheagar leaving the within the first month of 282 to supposedly take Lyanna. 

So he may have gone after Harrenhal as well as before, or only one of those two times. (I would think he would go before Harrenhal at the least, if not afterwards too if he really met Lyanna and wanted her instead.)

I think the plan was always Ashara Dayne.

The Brotherhood wasn't even looking for Arya or recognized her, it was only cause of the Northmen Harwin knew her. Had it not been for him, they may have just ransomed her or something. Some left the group too when Stone Heart took over, but only Edric Dayne and Anguy of noteworthy status. 

This is interesting though as most of Rhaegar's possible friends stay with Stone Heart, while Edric Dayne leaves with Anguy.

The only person I can think Anguy is, is the son of Fletcher Dick, who Ulmer at the Wall goes on about as both were in the Kings Wood Brotherhood. Ulmer put an arrow through the hand of Gerold Hightower to steal a kiss from a Dornish princess (Elia).

So I couldn't say why Thoros, Lem, or Tom are following Stoneheart, but getting Edric Dayne away from her does make some sense. Though I couldn't fully say why other than Ghost of HighHeart didn't know Arya, or like Arya calling her Dark Heart. With Arya's mom returning from the dead. The Ghost of Highheart likely chose Ashara Dayne, and so with all of that. Keeping Edric from Stone Heart makes some vague sense to me.

 

I'm not sure about all the connections and speculations my friend. but if I may I'll add one of my own don't you think Richard might be a half Manwoody? Joffrey Lonmouth was the knight of kisses , whereas Richard was knight of skulls and kisses. so , while its possible that the omission of skulls was just a way of distinguishing this historical knight from our Lonmouth knight (or put emphasis on the kisses he gave Laenor!) , it is also plausible that Lonmouth sigil has changed due to marriage aliances. and ,well, house Manwoody have skulls in their sigil! 

[Curled Finger]

54 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yes, he must know something. what he knows would be in category of  speculating about Rhaegar's journey.

so , any idea where he went after the Trident? and in the beginning of the series? we know he joined king's men for fighting the mountain but he seemed to be known in Riverlands. maybe his motivation was revenge for the sack? and any idea how and when his wife and daughter died? during the sack?

 

No idea at all about when or where anything happened, but I do know that the loss of a family can cause anyone to break.    Not the point at all, sorry.  i am of the mind that there was a great political coup in process to remove Aerys and Rhaegar was front and center of that movement, secret as it was.  Rhaegar was loved by the people, young lords in particular.   I think he had a great enormous deal of support for whatever his efforts were at the time.  Jon Connington isn't the only one who believed in Rhaegar.   Surely Elia did and all the Kingsguard--even Jamie sounds remorseful and longing in remembering Rhaegar's last words to him.  Robert seems to have forgiven a great many of the Lords who were against him during the Rebellion.   Looking at Lem, perhaps it would have been a greater mercy to just hang them.  They lost everything for Rhaegar.  

[Odej]

If Lem is really Richard Lonmouth he may also have information about Harrenhal and the knight of the laughing tree. Lonmouth was determined to unmasking the KOLT and, as he was one of Rhaegar's men, when Aerys ordered his son to look for the KOLT Lonmouth may have participated in the searches. If the KOLT was Lyanna, Lonmouth might provide valuable information about Rhaegar and Lyanna's interactions at Torney of Harrenhal.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Odej said:

If Lem is really Richard Lonmouth he may also have information about Harrenhal and the knight of the laughing tree. Lonmouth was determined to unmasking the KOLT and, as he was one of Rhaegar's men, when Aerys ordered his son to look for the KOLT Lonmouth may have participated in the searches. If the KOLT was Lyanna, Lonmouth might provide valuable information about Rhaegar and Lyanna's interactions at Torney of Harrenhal.

And yet, Lem doesn't recognize Arya, or care when its announced. This suggest to me that Lyanna was not the Knight. As Lyanna and Arya look alike. So after it was announced that it was Arya Stark, you would think Lem would put the two together and leave us a clue. Doesn't happen though.

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I'm not sure about all the connections and speculations my friend. but if I may I'll add one of my own don't you think Richard might be a half Manwoody? Joffrey Lonmouth was the knight of kisses , whereas Richard was knight of skulls and kisses. so , while its possible that the omission of skulls was just a way of distinguishing this historical knight from our Lonmouth knight (or put emphasis on the kisses he gave Laenor!) , it is also plausible that Lonmouth sigil has changed due to marriage aliances. and ,well, house Manwoody have skulls in their sigil! 

Thats a very good idea actually. We see other sigils change like that

[Egged]

Lem has become the new Smiling Knight. He is probably very similar to Jaime in some way, both having once looked up to be like Arthur Dayne (Lem was Rhaegar's squire and a close friend, but Arthur was Rhaegar's BFF). He's wearing the Hound's helm, and Jaime said the Hound is now the Smiling Knight of his youth.

I'm thinking he's going to keep the helmet on to not have Jaime recognize him, but they might end up confronting one another, Jaime might be the one to kill him. In doing so, Jaime would figuratively take Arthur Dayne's place. All that is missing is for Jaime to lead the smallfolk against the BwB, but right now he doesn't seem to be in a position to do that and he refuse the opportunity to join the Freys in doing so at the dinner.

[AlaskanSandman]

The side that goes with Stone Heart is more than strange. 

Tom O' Sevens blames the Hound for death of Alyn which the Hound didn't do. False Justice. Tom may have known Rheagar and at least competed against him at Tourney of Singers during Harrenhal event.

Jack be Lucky is a strange nod with his One Eye, matching that of Beric who gave his life for Cat. Which all makes one think of Bloodraven. Jack has a brother Wat at the Wall, and there is a Watt of Long Lake at the Wall. Jack was imprisoned at Riverrun once. Implying that Jack and his family supported the Targaryen's during Roberts Rebellion. Jack's father was also hung by Ser Marq Piper who came to K.L with Karl Vance and Raymund Darry to attest to Lannister men burning the Riverlands. Yet, Ser Raymund Darry end up with the Brotherhood with out Banners, dying at the Mummer's ford surprise attack by Lannisters. Darry is also connected to Willum Darry who helped Dany, and Jonothor Darry of the K.G. Targ supporters.

Thoros of Myr, who may have know Rhaegar as he was sent to court to convert Aerys II.

Lem Lemoncloak, who is likely Richard Lonmouth, Rhaegar's friend and a Targaryen supporter.

 

Then there is Notch. Who lived near House Goodbrooke, who were also Targaryen supporters during Roberts Rebellion.

Beardless Dick (Fletcher Dick? from Kingswood Brotherhood?) 

IF Beardless Dick is Fletcher Dick, then Ulmer his friend is also at the Wall. Along with Watt, brother of Jack be Lucky.

 

Why are all these Targaryen supporters lined up with Stone Heart? They all opposed her father during Roberts Rebellion.

[AlaskanSandman]

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jaremy_Rykker

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alliser_Thorne

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ulmer_of_the_Kingswood

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wat_(Night's_Watch)

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Watt_of_Long_Lake

The Watch should be made up of Targaryen supporters. Yet they hate Jon and kill him. Except Ulmer who was Kings wood Brotherhood.

[EggBlue]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yet, Lem doesn't recognize Arya, or care when its announced. This suggest to me that Lyanna was not the Knight. As Lyanna and Arya look alike. So after it was announced that it was Arya Stark, you would think Lem would put the two together and leave us a clue. Doesn't happen though.

I don't know if that means much. Richard met Lyanna Stark at Harrenhal anyway. he could give us info about whatever happened in Harrenhal and their Journey whether it's related to Lyanna or not.

8 hours ago, Egged said:

Lem has become the new Smiling Knight. He is probably very similar to Jaime in some way, both having once looked up to be like Arthur Dayne (Lem was Rhaegar's squire and a close friend, but Arthur was Rhaegar's BFF). He's wearing the Hound's helm, and Jaime said the Hound is now the Smiling Knight of his youth.

I'm thinking he's going to keep the helmet on to not have Jaime recognize him, but they might end up confronting one another, Jaime might be the one to kill him. In doing so, Jaime would figuratively take Arthur Dayne's place. All that is missing is for Jaime to lead the smallfolk against the BwB, but right now he doesn't seem to be in a position to do that and he refuse the opportunity to join the Freys in doing so at the dinner.

interesting take. I was wondering when and how the helmet will bite Lem in the ass! but do you think Jaimie will unmask him or kill him? if he's Richard , we need him for some clarification 

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jaremy_Rykker

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alliser_Thorne

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ulmer_of_the_Kingswood

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wat_(Night's_Watch)

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Watt_of_Long_Lake

The Watch should be made up of Targaryen supporters. Yet they hate Jon and kill him. Except Ulmer who was Kings wood Brotherhood.

well, I think that one might be understandable. Targaryen supporters lost the war and their freedom because of Ned who is believed to be Jon's dad. 

[AlaskanSandman]

35 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I don't know if that means much. Richard met Lyanna Stark at Harrenhal anyway. he could give us info about whatever happened in Harrenhal and their Journey whether it's related to Lyanna or not.

interesting take. I was wondering when and how the helmet will bite Lem in the ass! but do you think Jaimie will unmask him or kill him? if he's Richard , we need him for some clarification 

well, I think that one might be understandable. Targaryen supporters lost the war and their freedom because of Ned who is believed to be Jon's dad. 

Well, I don't expect you or most to people to support anything that goes against Lyanna. To be fair. Still worth mentioning though for some.

Do you have any theory though regarding LonMouth and a Manwoody connection towards anything? Cause at face value, it doesn't work towards a Lyanna reveal. Seeing as Lonmouth is from the Stormlands near border of Dorne, with Manwoody being near border but on Dornish side. So a union between the two Houses isn't abnormal really. Though, LemonCloak and Dorne point to Dorne, Dalt of Lemonwood, and Daenerys. From what I could tell, there was no other Lonmouths in history to make any other connection. Though there is an opposing connection in House Strong, who had Harwin Strong compete against Joffery Lonmouth, who was fighting for his gay lover Laenor Velaryon. While Harwin fought for Rhaenyra with her kids being possibly his. Or at least accused by Aemond One Eye who is married to Alys Waters, who is likely the bastard daughter of Lord Lyonel Strong. The Deeper connection being Lyonel's ancestor Lucamor who had many bastards who may lead to Dunk the Lunk, who is ancestor to Brienne of Tarth and possibly Hodor. Though I can't yet see any of those ties going to the Starks. Im still looking into Lucamor though. 

Lem having ties to Manwoody of Dorne, near House Dayne. Is suspect though for a Daenerys reveal. 

Considering Lem was running around with Beric who was engaged to Alyria Dayne, while toting around Edric Dayne. Points to more connections and a Daenerys reveal to do with Harrenhal.

As I mentioned earlier, there are temples to the Priest of Rhllor in Dorne. Meaning Thoros of Myr may have ties there, or allies. (One must wonder where he got 20 men to join Beric)

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XI

"I do not fear Gregor Clegane," Ser Loras said haughtily.

Ned eased himself slowly back onto the hard iron seat of Aegon's misshapen throne. His eyes searched the faces along the wall. "Lord Beric," he called out. "Thoros of Myr. Ser Gladden. Lord Lothar." The men named stepped forward one by one. "Each of you is to assemble twenty men, to bring my word to Gregor's keep. Twenty of my own guards shall go with you. Lord Beric Dondarrion, you shall have the command, as befits your rank."

The young lord with the red-gold hair bowed. "As you command, Lord Eddard."

 

 

 

And yet, 80 men of 120 are reported murdered at the Mummer's Ford. Meaning there are an extra 20 people, plus 20 mysterious people Thoros was expected to have. Being he is from Myr, what people is he expected to have?

 

The Daynes are connected to Rhaegar by way of Arthur Dayne, his best friend. Rhaegar is also connected to Dorne by way of Elia Martell.

 

Lem also doesn't recognize Arya, nor seem to care past her breaking his nose. Pointing to him not likely knowing Lyanna or the Starks in any personal way past hearing about them. 

 

This in my opinion is because Ashara Dayne is who Rhaegar was going to have his 3rd child with. Daenerys. The daughter needed to complete the 3 heads he had. Aegon, Rhaella, and Visenya (Daenerys the Dayne Heiress).

 

Lyanna, though being crowned by Rhaegar, was not taken by Rhaegar. Any more than Argoth Stone Skin took Maris the Maid, or Loras took Sansa. The myths, and other clues don't support Lyanna being taken by Rhaegar. Nor does logic support Lyanna being the Mystery Knight imo. Though people need her to be the Knight or else Rhaegar has no possibility of knowing her enough to love her before taking her, and with out that motivation, it makes him taking her seem even more odd. 

Meanwhile, the clues about Maris being taken by Uthor instead of Argoth. Her birthing in the dark dungeons of the oily black base (Since Hightower was built after by Bran the Builder, Maris's nephew who founded the Watch and Built the Wall). With her likely receiving the first hellibore crown, with the flowers shown on the sigil of House Florent. This all matching very much Lyanna Stark and Sansa Stark. With a Black Brother being at Harrenhal, and Yoren being at K.L., placing the Nights Watch with in each tale of Tourneys and roses and maid thefts.

Bael matching even more Jon's life, except the lack of a Tourney being mentioned. Though, one tourney after Maris's and before Aegon's conquest is mentioned with Loreon II Lannister. Then 3 during the Reign of Jaehaerys I who built the Kings Road mentioned in the Bael legend. Either way, a Tourney may have been a part of the full Bael legend. Despite not being known by the Starks, it is known by the Maesters who mention it in TWOIAF. Maybe the feast Bael came to and first requested the rose of Lord Stark, was a feast to celebrate his daughter becoming the Queen of Love and Beauty. It would explain why the Rose is loved by her and in the Garden's of House Stark.

 

The thing I can't figure out just yet, is who Lyanna was passed off as. Ashara Dayne is passed off for Rhaella I believe, mirroring Jeyne Pool being passed off for Arya. Sansa though is hidden as some one's bastard child. Making wonder who Lyanna was passed off as to hide her identity while she was snuck off. Arya also passes her self off for a bunch of non noble people. With Arya looking like Lyanna and having a warrior heart like Lyanna, I can't help but feel like Lyanna's journey was a little more like Arya's. With her doing something else while her family died, then hiding as commoners as she worked her way home. All I can think is that Mance may have been at Harrenhal but still had to get back to the Watch and his L.C. Qhorgyle (Whose house Oberyn was fostered at). Possibly having to leave Lyanna before Brandon and Rickard died. Idk. 

 

The Ghost of High Heart doesn't like Arya though, that's for sure. If the Ghost of High Heart suggested to Rhaegar that he bed Ashara Dayne, then I could see why the Ghost of High Heart may not like house Stark or Arya. As they would be opposition to the side of Fire and the Prince that was Promised. 

Which, the prophecy from the Ghost of High Heart all those years ago, never mentioned that the Prince that was Promised would be born from the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, but joined with House Stark of the North who represent Ice and your apparent foe in the War of Ice and Fire.

 

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

"A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.

 

 

 

So she came, told Aerys and Rhaella to wed. Then later likely consulted Rhaegar before the Tourney so he could go in prepared knowing what he should do. Likely planning to crown Ashara Dayne, who was dishonored there and looked to Stark. Who, a Stark happened to be crowned over her, and every one stared at. 

 

 

Else wise, if the Woods Witch knew it was Lyanna. Then Rhaegar surely didn't need to meet Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree right? Cause, the Witch would have just told Rhaegar, and Rhaegar could simply have gone up to Lyanna at the feast and talked to her personally. Even asked her to dance. Yet, this never happens. But, Lyanna is the missing piece supposedly. The Wood's Witch is just too blind to see it. Too Blind to notice Arya looks like Lyanna. Too Blind to see that she should be supporting House Stark then who are squirreling away the promised prince that the Woods Witch has worked so hard to bring about into fruition. She should recognize Arya and suggest the Lumpy Head make her way north to the Wall and her half brother Jon Snow the promised Prince.

 

[EggBlue]

3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, I don't expect you or most to people to support anything that goes against Lyanna. To be fair. Still worth mentioning though for some.

Do you have any theory though regarding LonMouth and a Manwoody connection towards anything? Cause at face value, it doesn't work towards a Lyanna reveal. Seeing as Lonmouth is from the Stormlands near border of Dorne, with Manwoody being near border but on Dornish side. So a union between the two Houses isn't abnormal really. Though, LemonCloak and Dorne point to Dorne, Dalt of Lemonwood, and Daenerys. From what I could tell, there was no other Lonmouths in history to make any other connection. Though there is an opposing connection in House Strong, who had Harwin Strong compete against Joffery Lonmouth, who was fighting for his gay lover Laenor Velaryon. While Harwin fought for Rhaenyra with her kids being possibly his. Or at least accused by Aemond One Eye who is married to Alys Waters, who is likely the bastard daughter of Lord Lyonel Strong. The Deeper connection being Lyonel's ancestor Lucamor who had many bastards who may lead to Dunk the Lunk, who is ancestor to Brienne of Tarth and possibly Hodor. Though I can't yet see any of those ties going to the Starks. Im still looking into Lucamor though. 

Lem having ties to Manwoody of Dorne, near House Dayne. Is suspect though for a Daenerys reveal. 

Considering Lem was running around with Beric who was engaged to Alyria Dayne, while toting around Edric Dayne. Points to more connections and a Daenerys reveal to do with Harrenhal.

As I mentioned earlier, there are temples to the Priest of Rhllor in Dorne. Meaning Thoros of Myr may have ties there, or allies. (One must wonder where he got 20 men to join Beric)

 

 

 

And yet, 80 men of 120 are reported murdered at the Mummer's Ford. Meaning there are an extra 20 people, plus 20 mysterious people Thoros was expected to have. Being he is from Myr, what people is he expected to have?

 

The Daynes are connected to Rhaegar by way of Arthur Dayne, his best friend. Rhaegar is also connected to Dorne by way of Elia Martell.

 

Lem also doesn't recognize Arya, nor seem to care past her breaking his nose. Pointing to him not likely knowing Lyanna or the Starks in any personal way past hearing about them. 

 

This in my opinion is because Ashara Dayne is who Rhaegar was going to have his 3rd child with. Daenerys. The daughter needed to complete the 3 heads he had. Aegon, Rhaella, and Visenya (Daenerys the Dayne Heiress).

 

Lyanna, though being crowned by Rhaegar, was not taken by Rhaegar. Any more than Argoth Stone Skin took Maris the Maid, or Loras took Sansa. The myths, and other clues don't support Lyanna being taken by Rhaegar. Nor does logic support Lyanna being the Mystery Knight imo. Though people need her to be the Knight or else Rhaegar has no possibility of knowing her enough to love her before taking her, and with out that motivation, it makes him taking her seem even more odd. 

Meanwhile, the clues about Maris being taken by Uthor instead of Argoth. Her birthing in the dark dungeons of the oily black base (Since Hightower was built after by Bran the Builder, Maris's nephew who founded the Watch and Built the Wall). With her likely receiving the first hellibore crown, with the flowers shown on the sigil of House Florent. This all matching very much Lyanna Stark and Sansa Stark. With a Black Brother being at Harrenhal, and Yoren being at K.L., placing the Nights Watch with in each tale of Tourneys and roses and maid thefts.

Bael matching even more Jon's life, except the lack of a Tourney being mentioned. Though, one tourney after Maris's and before Aegon's conquest is mentioned with Loreon II Lannister. Then 3 during the Reign of Jaehaerys I who built the Kings Road mentioned in the Bael legend. Either way, a Tourney may have been a part of the full Bael legend. Despite not being known by the Starks, it is known by the Maesters who mention it in TWOIAF. Maybe the feast Bael came to and first requested the rose of Lord Stark, was a feast to celebrate his daughter becoming the Queen of Love and Beauty. It would explain why the Rose is loved by her and in the Garden's of House Stark.

 

The thing I can't figure out just yet, is who Lyanna was passed off as. Ashara Dayne is passed off for Rhaella I believe, mirroring Jeyne Pool being passed off for Arya. Sansa though is hidden as some one's bastard child. Making wonder who Lyanna was passed off as to hide her identity while she was snuck off. Arya also passes her self off for a bunch of non noble people. With Arya looking like Lyanna and having a warrior heart like Lyanna, I can't help but feel like Lyanna's journey was a little more like Arya's. With her doing something else while her family died, then hiding as commoners as she worked her way home. All I can think is that Mance may have been at Harrenhal but still had to get back to the Watch and his L.C. Qhorgyle (Whose house Oberyn was fostered at). Possibly having to leave Lyanna before Brandon and Rickard died. Idk. 

 

The Ghost of High Heart doesn't like Arya though, that's for sure. If the Ghost of High Heart suggested to Rhaegar that he bed Ashara Dayne, then I could see why the Ghost of High Heart may not like house Stark or Arya. As they would be opposition to the side of Fire and the Prince that was Promised. 

Which, the prophecy from the Ghost of High Heart all those years ago, never mentioned that the Prince that was Promised would be born from the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, but joined with House Stark of the North who represent Ice and your apparent foe in the War of Ice and Fire.

 

 

 

 

So she came, told Aerys and Rhaella to wed. Then later likely consulted Rhaegar before the Tourney so he could go in prepared knowing what he should do. Likely planning to crown Ashara Dayne, who was dishonored there and looked to Stark. Who, a Stark happened to be crowned over her, and every one stared at. 

 

 

Else wise, if the Woods Witch knew it was Lyanna. Then Rhaegar surely didn't need to meet Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree right? Cause, the Witch would have just told Rhaegar, and Rhaegar could simply have gone up to Lyanna at the feast and talked to her personally. Even asked her to dance. Yet, this never happens. But, Lyanna is the missing piece supposedly. The Wood's Witch is just too blind to see it. Too Blind to notice Arya looks like Lyanna. Too Blind to see that she should be supporting House Stark then who are squirreling away the promised prince that the Woods Witch has worked so hard to bring about into fruition. She should recognize Arya and suggest the Lumpy Head make her way north to the Wall and her half brother Jon Snow the promised Prince.

 

hey! I'm not in favor of LyannaRhaegar union myself!   it'll most probably make them both selfish as hell which neither seem to be! in your first sentence it seemed like you were being defensive and I honestly did not mean to offend you or anything. 

I don't know what Richard might know exactly. we already knew Richard was probably one of Rhaegar's 6 and might be informed about his mysterious journey. but tower of joy seem to be located in Manwoody estates which might suggest that Richard - a half Manwoody in my belief - may know what was going on there by being a bridge between Rhaegar and Lord Manwoody. however, Richard cannot be the only connection there and honestly that connection doesn't have to be anything more than a fun fact; since Rhaegar calling the place tower of joy makes me think he had a history with the place anyway and let's not forget his brother in-law's Manwoody squire. Richard/Lem could only be the most convenient guy we'll have to get some info.