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Richard L = Lem L theory and the role of Thoros of Myr


EggBlue
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7 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

hey! I'm not in favor of LyannaRhaegar union myself! :P  it'll most probably make them both selfish as hell which neither seem to be! in your first sentence it seemed like you were being defensive and I honestly did not mean to offend you or anything. 

I don't know what Richard might know exactly. we already knew Richard was probably one of Rhaegar's 6 and might be informed about his mysterious journey. but tower of joy seem to be located in Manwoody estates which might suggest that Richard - a half Manwoody in my belief - may know what was going on there by being a bridge between Rhaegar and Lord Manwoody. however, Richard cannot be the only connection there and honestly that connection doesn't have to be anything more than a fun fact; since Rhaegar calling the place tower of joy makes me think he had a history with the place anyway and let's not forget his brother in-law's Manwoody squire. Richard/Lem could only be the most convenient guy we'll have to get some info.

Oh no, not being defensive at all haha Just used to the forum not being big on anything that goes against Lyanna too much so Im not surprised or upset that people don't agree. :)

Im not sure the Tower of Joy is in their lands or Fowler lands, looked more Fowler lands to me but idk.

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11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yet, Lem doesn't recognize Arya, or care when its announced. This suggest to me that Lyanna was not the Knight. As Lyanna and Arya look alike. So after it was announced that it was Arya Stark, you would think Lem would put the two together and leave us a clue. Doesn't happen though.

I see no reason for Lem to recognize Arya, as far as we know he has never met her before. And when he met her she was a skinny, dirty, and badly dressed ten-year-old girl pretending to be a boy in the middle of nowhere. Even Harwin, a man from Winterfell who knew her, did not immediately recognize her in the same chapter where Arya meets Lem. So why would Lem relate a ragged boy to a 14-15 teenager he met 15 years ago?

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21 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

hey! I'm not in favor of LyannaRhaegar union myself! :P  it'll most probably make them both selfish as hell which neither seem to be! in your first sentence it seemed like you were being defensive and I honestly did not mean to offend you or anything. 

I don't know what Richard might know exactly. we already knew Richard was probably one of Rhaegar's 6 and might be informed about his mysterious journey. but tower of joy seem to be located in Manwoody estates which might suggest that Richard - a half Manwoody in my belief - may know what was going on there by being a bridge between Rhaegar and Lord Manwoody. however, Richard cannot be the only connection there and honestly that connection doesn't have to be anything more than a fun fact; since Rhaegar calling the place tower of joy makes me think he had a history with the place anyway and let's not forget his brother in-law's Manwoody squire. Richard/Lem could only be the most convenient guy we'll have to get some info.

That Strong thing I was checking out led to some interesting theories lol kinda off topic but interesting. 

 

The idea of Good Queen Alysane cheating is something I came up with before Fire and Blood dropped, but GRRM changed somethings and my Queen's Crown idea got smashed. Someone though has a theory to do with her and the Strong's though. 

There is something about the Dance of Dragons and Dunk and Egg I think we are all missing and this is an interesting link between all 3 stories. 

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3 minutes ago, Odej said:

I see no reason for Lem to recognize Arya, as far as we know he has never met her before. And when he met her she was a skinny, dirty, and badly dressed ten-year-old girl pretending to be a boy in the middle of nowhere. Even Harwin, a man from Winterfell who knew her, did not immediately recognize her in the same chapter where Arya meets Lem. So why would Limo relate a ragged boy to a 14-15 teenager he met 15 years ago?

I already point out that even after Harwin recognizes her, Lem don't care. Neither does the Wood's Witch. Neither does Tom O'Sevens. So even after, Arya is revealed. Lem and the Ghost of High Heart make no association between her, Lyanna or House Stark. They don't seem to care at all.

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Lord Dondarrion decides to hold Arya until the brotherhood can ransom her to her Tully relatives. Arya escapes from the brotherhood, but is captured by Sandor.

They care so little for her, they are going to ransom her for money. 

Again, considering the Woods Witch alone should know about Lyanna and Jon Snow, should suggest Arya go to Jon, and not hate Arya. Yet, she hates Arya and makes no mention of Jon Snow, Starks, or Lyanna. Same for Lem, who likely came to the Ghost with Rhaegar and Tom' O Sevens.

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I already point out that even after Harwin recognizes her, Lem don't care. Neither does the Wood's Witch. Neither does Tom O'Sevens. So even after, Arya is revealed. Lem and the Ghost of High Heart make no association between her, Lyanna or House Stark. They don't seem to care at all.

They care so little for her, they are going to ransom her for money. 

I don't understand why they should care, at all. Even Harwin, who knew her since forever and was a northmen, is in favor of the idea of ransom for her so why Lem, a complete stranger to Arya, like the others you mention, would care for her just because she was the niece of the teenager girl who pretended to be a knight at Tourney of Harrenhal? I don't see how his attitude can be seem as contradictory.

As I said in my first comment on this post, Lem is a broken man with a crooked past who seeks a new life with Beric and the others, and in this new life they need money. Arya could be a source for it and Lem doesn't give a shit about who her aunt was, she's in a past Lem wants to run away from.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, considering the Woods Witch alone should know about Lyanna and Jon Snow, should suggest Arya go to Jon, and not hate Arya. Yet, she hates Arya and makes no mention of Jon Snow, Starks, or Lyanna. Same for Lem, who likely came to the Ghost with Rhaegar and Tom' O Sevens

Why should the Woods Witch know about Lyanna and Jon? Do you mean the theory that Rhaegar met the witch and she was the one who told him to go after Lyanna, or then Rhaegar tell her his intentions? I don't believe in this theory, nothing in the books suggests it.

But I'm curious, if you believe that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara, who are Jon's parents?

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6 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I don't know if that means much. Richard met Lyanna Stark at Harrenhal anyway. he could give us info about whatever happened in Harrenhal and their Journey whether it's related to Lyanna or not.

interesting take. I was wondering when and how the helmet will bite Lem in the ass! but do you think Jaimie will unmask him or kill him? if he's Richard , we need him for some clarification:unsure: 

I imagine that Jaime would fight him, kill him, and then discover his identity (he might know he's not the real Hound just from looking at him but curious to know who is under it). I think it would be interesting from Jaime's POV as he would remember where they came from, in their youth, and how they ended up in the situation they were in now. It's always possible that Jaime might not kill him and discover his identity beforehand, and maybe somehow manage to "save" Lem like in a way he has or has been trying to lift up Brienne.

In any case, too many people forget Ilyn Payne in all this. He's coming to save Jaime and Pod!

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17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ok, doing some tugging at this House Strong thing, and since it's actually relevant. Ill bring it up here real quick.

So Stark in German, means Strong.

The Idea is that House Strong is an old line of House Stark in the Riverlands as they traveled North.

Lucamor Strong may be the father of Baelon and maybe even Alyssa and some of the other Targaryen children of Alysanne.

With Lucamor also being linked to Dunk the Lunk, and Brienne. 

Lucamor also had 16 bastards hidden at Harrenhal, Stormlands, and Crownlands. Meaning other possible mixing with House Targaryen.

"the seed is Strong"

 

This is either evidence for or against Lyanna and Rhaegar hooking up. As, if the Targaryen's are already blood of House Stark, then, that might be why they lost the Dragons.

Some may take this as affirmation as Harrenhal is where the Tourney took place or some other thing. My issue is, if House Targaryen is already mixed with House Stark, then it suggest to me that mixing with House Stark is not good and does not bring any Prince that was Promised or the rebirth of Dragons.

I will do a separate thread to discuss this more in depth. Though its worth mentioning here real quick and let others in on the idea to prep for a further discussion in more depth. 

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16 hours ago, Odej said:

But I'm curious, if you believe that Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar and Ashara, who are Jon's parents?

Lyanna and Mance Rayder. 

This is an old thread I did on it years ago.

The idea is that Mance Rayder is the Blackbrother at Harrenhal. 

As Jon fights the King Beyond the wall, his father, who gave a blue rose for Lyanna and who Jon kills (Rattleshirt) at the Wall.

Jon's life mirrors the legend of Bael the Bard, something her is told about before meeting Mance.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"I never knew my mother. Or any such song."
"Bael the Bard made it," said Ygritte. "He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south."
 
Mance say's he has drunk summer wine and tasted Dornishman's wives to Melisandre. While Tyrion has to bring his own summer wine North since there is none north of the Neck. Meaning Mance has likely been south of the Neck. 
He was close Qhorgyle the L.C. and even traveled to Winterfell with him. Checking up on Jon while there. He visits Winterfell again at the start of AGOT when Robert is there. He later visits again under the name Abel- Bael.
He and Jon both seek the crypts. Jon in his dreams.
 
This is due to Maris the maid, the first Queen of love and Beauty crowned likely with the Hellibore Winter Rose shown on the sigil of House Florent who are also in the Reach, near where Rose of Red Lake and Brandon of the Bloody Blade were.
Maris was won by Argoth Stone Skin who likely gave her the rose as the Queen of Love and Beauty.
Maris was not taken by who won and crowned her though (Rhaegar/Argoth), she was taken by Uthor of the Hightower. Where she birthed him two children in the lower dark dungeons of the Oily Black Base where the Hightowers lived till Bran the Builder, the nephew to Maris, builds the Stone Hightower. Bran is also credited with forming the Nights Watch and building the Wall.
We see this same thing with Sansa who is crowned by Loras but taken by Dontos for Baelish. Yoren is also in K.L.
 
Bael the Bard's legend likely happened either after the Tourney of Loreon II (only Tourney after Maris but before Aegon Conquered) or one of the 3 Tourney's during the Reign of Jaehaerys I who built the Kings Road mentioned in the legend. With Starks also being said to be Lords at the time.
The winter rose the Stark Maid loved and had in the Glass Garden was likely from winning the Crown of Love and Beauty. Imo.
 
Tormund takes Maege Mormont and has Alysane Mormont possibly as a right of passage to become King Beyond the Wall, but is stopped by Mance Rayder. Who later pulls a better Bael move by getting the actual Stark Maid. Mance later becomes King Beyond the wall and has a suspect story of his Red Silk Asshai mend to his cloak.
This is likely from a deal with Rhaegar. What is the deal?
Likely has to do with the Slavers from the Step Stones taking slaves from beyond the Wall. Something Mance wouldn't like. Mance serves L.C. Qhorgyle and may even be his bastard son on some woman from White Tree (Knight of the Laughing Tree). Qhorgyle is the House Oberyn Martell was fostered at, and who need the aquaducts Aerys II was going to build, along with extending the North after a visit from Rickard. Oberyn was likely trying to start another War of the Nine Penny Kings and they needed an alliance of all the Houses as they had before (except the Reach, who possibly is behind Robert's Rebellion as Ned states that beneath the pale blue petals layed the thorns. The Queen of Thorns.). Lannisters also messed this all up.
 
Mance as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, would thus be no true Knight. A motley of armor. He is Florian the Fool and Lyanna is Jonquil. Jonquil being a flower.
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On 1/7/2022 at 2:39 PM, EggBlue said:

many believe Lem Lemoncloak to be Richard Lonmouth , the Knight of Skulls and Kisses. I am one of those many! but if this is the case then Thoros of Myr must know him from their time at court during Targaryen era. on the other hand , Richard must be in some sort of hiding with his new identity. so how come he was in Beric's party? how come Thoros never revealed Richard's identity to the others? and why would they work with each other? 

I think the simple answer is that Lem Lemoncloak isn’t Richard Lonmouth.  It’s a cute theory, but it’s really more style than substance, and falls apart under actual scrutiny.   He had a family in the Riverlands, a wife and daughter.  And he doesn’t seem to associate himself as a noble:

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“Maybe so. What do a bunch o’ bloody peasants know about a lord’s honor?” Yellow cloak wrapped the end of the rope around his hand three times. “We know some about murder, though.”

 

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18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the simple answer is that Lem Lemoncloak isn’t Richard Lonmouth.  It’s a cute theory, but it’s really more style than substance, and falls apart under actual scrutiny.   He had a family in the Riverlands, a wife and daughter.  And he doesn’t seem to associate himself as a noble:

 

yes , I agree that there's a good chance this theory is only in our heads,  Lem's language especially has been something to give me doubts. but if he's been living in disguised for 15 years, it's only logical for him to use commoners' language and to associate himself with the commoners more than nobles. the way Arya learns and even Theon:

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“—my lord, when you should have said m’lord. Your tongue betrays your birth with every word you say. If you want to sound a proper peasant, say it as if you had mud in your mouth, or were too stupid to realize it was two words, not just one.”

“If it please my—m’lord.”

if Reek can learn , so can Lem. and then there is the quote that @Mourning Star mentioned. 

besides, if JonCon hadn't come back to the story in Dance , it would have been different. but it seems a little weird that Barristan specifically names 4 men as Rhaegar's friends and GrrM later gives us the fates of 3 of them in various occasions . it wouldn't have been hard to write " ser Richard died in the Trident with Rhaegar and Lewin and the rest" or "ser Richard fought beside Robert" ... all that gives me the feeling that he'll come back to the story one way or the other. Lem is just convenient! 

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15 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yes , I agree that there's a good chance this theory is only in our heads,  Lem's language especially has been something to give me doubts. but if he's been living in disguised for 15 years, it's only logical for him to use commoners' language and to associate himself with the commoners more than nobles. the way Arya learns and even Theon:

if Reek can learn , so can Lem. and then there is the quote that @Mourning Star mentioned. 

besides, if JonCon hadn't come back to the story in Dance , it would have been different. but it seems a little weird that Barristan specifically names 4 men as Rhaegar's friends and GrrM later gives us the fates of 3 of them in various occasions . it wouldn't have been hard to write " ser Richard died in the Trident with Rhaegar and Lewin and the rest" or "ser Richard fought beside Robert" ... all that gives me the feeling that he'll come back to the story one way or the other. Lem is just convenient! 

Yea Idk who else Richard would be hiding as.

 

 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

His Grace was full of grand schemes as well. Not long after his coronation, he announced his intent to conquer the Stepstones and make them a part of his realm for all time. In 264 AC, a visit to King's Landing by Lord Rickard Stark of Winterfell awakened his interest in the North, and he hatched a plan to build a new Wall a hundred leagues north of the existing one and claim all the lands between. In 265 AC, offended by "the stink of King's Landing," he spoke of building a "white city" entirely of marble on the south bank of the Blackwater Rush. In 267 AC, after a dispute with the Iron Bank of Braavos regarding certain monies borrowed by his father, he announced that he would build the largest war fleet in the history of the world "to bring the Titan to his knees." In 270 AC, during a visit to Sunspear, he told the Princess of Dorne that he would "make the Dornish deserts bloom" by digging a great underground canal beneath the mountains to bring water down from the rainwood.

 

 
This is interesting cause not only does it involve House Qhorgyle which ties Oberyn and Mance Rayder, but it ties Richard LonMouth. 
 
Why's that? Because the Knight of Skulls and Kisses is likely a union with House Manwoody of Dorne near where House LonMouth of the Storm Lands lives. With Joffery Lonmouth being the Knight of Kisses. The Skulls likely came after a marriage alliance. An Alliance that would've allowed a canal to flow through both their lands from the Rainwood to the deserts of Dorne. With Richard LonMouth being a friend of Rhaegar Targaryen, who was best friends with Arthur Dayne of Dorne, along with Lewyn Martell of Dorne. While also being married to Elia Martell of Dorne. This though shows a large alliance with Dorne. With Aerys wanting to take the Step Stones that are troubling Dorne, for good.
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On 1/7/2022 at 4:04 PM, Mourning Star said:

I understand why I believe it. 

And I highly doubt there will be no payoff to this line:

Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard!

?  Lonmouth was never a knight of the Kingsguard.

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

yes , I agree that there's a good chance this theory is only in our heads,  Lem's language especially has been something to give me doubts. but if he's been living in disguised for 15 years, it's only logical for him to use commoners' language and to associate himself with the commoners more than nobles. the way Arya learns and even Theon:

if Reek can learn , so can Lem. and then there is the quote that @Mourning Star mentioned. 

besides, if JonCon hadn't come back to the story in Dance , it would have been different. but it seems a little weird that Barristan specifically names 4 men as Rhaegar's friends and GrrM later gives us the fates of 3 of them in various occasions . it wouldn't have been hard to write " ser Richard died in the Trident with Rhaegar and Lewin and the rest" or "ser Richard fought beside Robert" ... all that gives me the feeling that he'll come back to the story one way or the other. Lem is just convenient! 

But you have to ask yourself, what’s the point?  Why would Lonmouth travel to the Riverlands to start a new life and become a soldier?  

If Lonmouth wanted to hide, he would have left Westeros and joined one of the sellswords.  Or he would have travelled to Dorne.

If he wanted to keep up Rhaegar’s memory, he would have positioned himself where he could be more useful and probably wouldn’t have gotten a wife and child.

Why would Lonmouth express devotion to King Robert?  Robert was the guy that killed his beloved Rhaegar and stole Rhaegar’s throne.  

As an aside, despite Tom O’Sevenstreams colorful tale, it’s most probable that the nickname Lem is short from Willem.  We’ve seen one or two other characters that abbreviate Willem to Lem.  It also lines up pretty well with another character who was a member of an outlaw band and was known for the color of his cloak.  Will Scarlet.  And Lem Lemoncloak’s backstory matches up remarkably well with a British version of the Robin Hood tale that ran during the 80’s:

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Will Scarlet (Ray Winstone)
Originally called Will Scathlock. When his wife, Elena, is raped, beaten and trampled to death with horses by mercenaries, he changes his name after slaying several of her killers. Hot-headed and filled with hatred of all things Norman, he is contrasted with the more collected Robin, which frequently leads to conflicts. He has a brother who owns an inn in Lichfield.

 

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29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But you have to ask yourself, what’s the point?  Why would Lonmouth travel to the Riverlands to start a new life and become a soldier?

Did you just ask what the point was to tragedy in literature? 

If you meant to ask how Richard Lonmouth is relevant to the plot? Then I would argue he holds a place right along side Howland Reed as a possible repository of important plot relevant information by someone still alive. He might well know about Rhaegar and Lyanna, hell it's even possible drinking Robert under the table was to give the two of them time together... and what if because of this he holds himself responsible for Robert's Rebellion?

As one of the few living people who could have insider information from this time period it is absolutely wild to suggest there is no point to his existence!

29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Lonmouth wanted to hide, he would have left Westeros and joined one of the sellswords.  Or he would have travelled to Dorne.

Or maybe not.

He wasn't banished, or a criminal that we are aware of. Maybe he just wanted to drink.

29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If he wanted to keep up Rhaegar’s memory, he would have positioned himself where he could be more useful and probably wouldn’t have gotten a wife and child.

Doesn't seem like he's trying to change the world, more like he is pissed at the world. He had a wife and daughter it seems, and their death, especially if it was in Robert's Rebellion, could go a long way towards explaining how he ended up drinking his life away in the RIverlands.

"I want my wife and daughter back," said the Hound. "Can your father give me that? If not, he can get buggered. The boy will rot beside you. Wolves will gnaw your bones."
"Do you mean to hang her, Lem?" asked the one-eyed man. "Or do you figure to talk the bitch to death?"
The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.

29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why would Lonmouth express devotion to King Robert?  Robert was the guy that killed his beloved Rhaegar and stole Rhaegar’s throne.  

Why are liking both these men exclusive? Seems to me he was friends with his lord Robert and squire to his prince, Rhaegar... maybe he liked both of them. I would suggest this is likely.

It's not even special to like Robert and hate the Lannisters, and wouldn't be surprising if he held the deaths of Rhaegar's kids against them, like so many others do.

29 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

As an aside, despite Tom O’Sevenstreams colorful tale, it’s most probable that the nickname Lem is short from Willem.  We’ve seen one or two other characters that abbreviate Willem to Lem.  It also lines up pretty well with another character who was a member of an outlaw band and was known for the color of his cloak.  Will Scarlet.  And Lem Lemoncloak’s backstory matches up remarkably well with a British version of the Robin Hood tale that ran during the 80’s:

"I cannot eat a silver stag, nor ride one. A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old."

"You must be a lackwit, boy," said Lem. "We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate."

I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?"
"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now."

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

"I cannot eat a silver stag, nor ride one. A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old."

"You must be a lackwit, boy," said Lem. "We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate."

I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?"
"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now."

Like I said, a theory strong on style, light on substance.  Does this quote make Obara a secret descendant from House Lonmouth?

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“Obara bristled. “I never did and never shall.” She gave the skull a mocking kiss. “This is a start, I’ll grant.”

Martin likes the juxtaposition between skulls and kisses, between love and death.  His use of the imagery doesn’t necessarily imply a hidden Lonmouth.  

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Why are liking both these men exclusive? Seems to me he was friends with his lord Robert and squire to his prince, Rhaegar... maybe he liked both of them. I would suggest this is likely.

Any like of both probably ended when Robert’s hammer killed Rhaegar and the murder of Rhaegar’s children went unpunished by King Robert.

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Doesn't seem like he's trying to change the world, more like he is pissed at the world. He had a wife and daughter it seems, and their death, especially if it was in Robert's Rebellion, could go a long way towards explaining how he ended up drinking his life away in the RIverlands.

It’s pretty clear from the context, that Lem’s wife and daughter were killed in the current conflict in the Riverlands.  Which is how much of Beric’s gang grew, from people who had lost all during the conflict in the Riverlands.  It also explains Lem’s specific hatred for the Lannisters.  He blames them for the death of his family.  Once again it’s probably a nod to another outlaw from an infamous band who’s known for the color of his cloak.  

It’s also fairly easy to see the future conflict that GRRM is setting up for Lem.  Lem hangs Mariya Darry’s (i.e. Mariya Frey) husband.  Mariya and her daughter take up residence in House Darry.  Mariya complains about those responsible for her husband’s death:

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“The outlaws who killed your husband … was it Lord Beric’s band?”
“So we thought, at first.” Though Lady Mariya’s hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman. “The killers scattered when they left Oldstones. Lord Vypren tracked one band to Fairmarket, but lost them there. Black Walder led hounds and hunters into Hag’s Mire after the others. The peasants denied seeing them, but when questioned sharply they sang a different song. They spoke of a one-eyed man and another who wore a yellow cloak … and a woman, cloaked and hooded.”

Then the conversation turns to the butcher who wears a Hound’s helm:

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Jaime sipped his wine. “What makes you certain it was the Hound?” What they were describing sounded more like Gregor’s work than Sandor’s. Sandor had been hard and brutal, yes, but it was his big brother who was the real monster in House Clegane.

“He was seen,” Ser Arwood said. “That helm of his is not easily mistaken, nor forgotten, and there were a few who survived to tell the tale. The girl he raped, some boys who hid, a woman we found trapped beneath a blackened beam, the fisherfolk who watched the butchery from their boats …”
“Do not call it butchery,” Lady Mariya said softly. “That gives insult to honest butchers everywhere. Saltpans was the work of some fell beast in human skin.”

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“Evil work.” Strongboar filled his cup again. “Lady Mariya, Lady Amerei, your distress has moved me. You have my word, once Riverrun has fallen I shall return to hunt down the Hound and kill him for you. Dogs do not frighten me.”

So Strongboar vows to Lady Mariya to hunt down the man in the Hound’s Helm, which is now Lem.  It seems unusual that GRRM would position a hidden Rhaegar supporter and confidant in his story, only to position him for a future conflict in the Riverlands while Rhaegar’s alleged son is in the Stormlands.

Which makes me think that Lem is not a hidden Rhaegar supporter.  

(My guess is that GRRM is setting up a parallel conflict in Castle Darry that we may see for another fallen House of Winterfell.  So if Lem does have a significant alternate identity, than he’s probably the Bastard of Darry that Varys mentions at the end of ACOK.  And the conflict is going to concern the Bastard of Darry vs the Lady of Darry.)

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4 hours ago, TheNecromancerofMirkwood said:

If that were somehow true, WHY would Ned keep it a secret? What good would it have done Jon to not know who his real mother and father were?

Lucamore Strong had 16 bastards that were hidden. Pretty sure its still a dishonor to have kids out of wedlock for the Maid, and the bastard. Ned could've done it to spare Robert. Plenty of reasons. The child of Bael has his identity hidden from him too and was raised as a Stark. There are examples in the book that show this 

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On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Like I said, a theory strong on style, light on substance.  Does this quote make Obara a secret descendant from House Lonmouth?

No more than Arya kissing the Old Man at the House of White and Black makes her a man old enough to have been a squire of Rhaegar's... I don't think anyone has suggested this is spelled out in black and white for a certainty. However, this is a story filled with things being hinted at before they are spelled out. Believe what you want, but it is disingenuous at best to suggest others don't have reason for what they believe.

On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Martin likes the juxtaposition between skulls and kisses, between love and death.  His use of the imagery doesn’t necessarily imply a hidden Lonmouth.  

Absolutely he does! And at no point have I heard anyone say it necessitates anything.

However, I think the repeated imagery, in conjunction with what practical information we have about Lem, points strongly to the conclusion that he is Richard Lonmouth. The color of his cloak matching for instance... etc.

On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Any like of both probably ended when Robert’s hammer killed Rhaegar and the murder of Rhaegar’s children went unpunished by King Robert.

Maybe, but maybe not. Could drive a man to drink, certainly.

On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

It’s pretty clear from the context, that Lem’s wife and daughter were killed in the current conflict in the Riverlands.

I disagree. Why do you feel this way?

On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

 Which is how much of Beric’s gang grew, from people who had lost all during the conflict in the Riverlands.  It also explains Lem’s specific hatred for the Lannisters.  He blames them for the death of his family.  Once again it’s probably a nod to another outlaw from an infamous band who’s known for the color of his cloak.  

I doubt it, but go ahead and make that case. 

On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

It’s also fairly easy to see the future conflict that GRRM is setting up for Lem.  Lem hangs Mariya Darry’s (i.e. Mariya Frey) husband.  Mariya and her daughter take up residence in House Darry.  Mariya complains about those responsible for her husband’s death:

I'm gonna hard disagree with you here for a few reasons.

The Saltpans had been largely plundered before Arya arrives there (having just left the Hound behind).

Rorge, wearing the helm, is the one who finished the Saltpans off, not Lem.

On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Then the conversation turns to the butcher who wears a Hound’s helm:

Rorge is already dead.

On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Which makes me think that Lem is not a hidden Rhaegar supporter.  

And I think this is a mistaken conclusion because you thought Lem was the one who attacked the Saltpans? 

Nor did I say he was a secret Rhaegar supporter... I think he was Rhaegar's friend, and I think he might have insider info, but I'm not even sure what being a Rhaegar supporter means at this point. Unless you mean that he might know of a child between Rhaegar and Lyanna, in which case yes, I think that makes him important to the plot as well.

On 1/10/2022 at 3:14 PM, Frey family reunion said:

(My guess is that GRRM is setting up a parallel conflict in Castle Darry that we may see for another fallen House of Winterfell.  So if Lem does have a significant alternate identity, than he’s probably the Bastard of Darry that Varys mentions at the end of ACOK.  And the conflict is going to concern the Bastard of Darry vs the Lady of Darry.)

I read someone's suggestion that the Elder Brother could be a lesser son of house Darry, and I think that would be cool.

But, obviously I don't think Lem fits. Still, I enjoyed your response! 

Edited by Mourning Star
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