The Reign of King Renly

[frenin]

24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin and Keaven in their lifetime kept the realm together. Look, you can count banners like Renly but I'm not impressed. Robb was undefeated in the field, Euron undefeated in voodoo, Doran in vengeance. Renly couldn't rule the sunset because the sunset can't be ruled without dragons. That's obvious now.

Eleven kings ruled the sunset kingdoms after the dragons died. There's no magic involved, it was that kind of mindset which led to Egg to burn himself to ash rather than compromising with his fellow nobles and keeping the deals he had made to further his policies.

Both Tywin, Kevan and Renly understood that, which is why the Realm would have been stable enough under them.

 

30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Aerys lost

He didn't understand it.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

but others?

The Greyjoys would just sit and wait, Doran is Doran and Renly would have no other choice but to back Stannis (even if he craved the throne ).

The only ones who would have been targeted would have been the Lannisters but their only meaningful tie was that with the crown, severed that they would be isolated and facing destruction.

I don't think Tywin would march but who knows. With Stannis crowning we lose enlightened Stannis but we get not attached to Melisandre Stannis.

 

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Stannis is convinced that he must rule like a Targaryen (cuz duh) but that's not possible without Targaryen muscle, realm would bleed. LF saw it true

Most Targaryen kings didn't even remotely rule like Stannis does or wants to do. Stannis shows no mercy, so whoever offends him or actually rebels against him can expect to lose his head and/or his lands and castle.

That kind of thing you get from stupid Targaryen kings like Maegor or Aegon II, but most of them were pretty lenient and capable of compromise. All within the framework of the society, of course.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I suppose that's true. Dragonstone and Summerhall must have helped

Dragonstone is a pretty small stronghold and Summerhall may have cost more than it was worth.

The point there is that the Targaryens were foreign invaders who were accepted as overlords by everybody. They were viewed as being above the noble familes, not one of the them.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Truly a terrible king. The Much affair is sad but it's just some rando kid and a dog. The Tyrion catspaw affair is egregious

Yeah, but Robert doesn't even act confident in the whole situation. He wants to be elsewhere, according to Ned, and tried to hush it up without properly thinking about it and the implications.

But you are right - the way he deals with the later incident is equally worse. Something like that wouldn't have happened under a Targaryen king.

Then, of course, no Targaryen king was as dependent on the support of 2-3 great houses to secure his kingship, nor did any other king (to our knowledge) pick his queen and his Hand from two great houses who loath each other. That also shows very poor judgment on Robert's part.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Eleven kings ruled the sunset kingdoms after the dragons died. There's no magic involved

That's probably not true. How many eyes does Bloodraven have? 

The Targaryens were the leaders for a long time, remember we're still talking about Westeros, where the barbarians get a hard on for a picture of their landlord's pet or something. Hard to escape the mental prison.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

it was that kind of mindset which led to Egg to burn himself to ash rather than compromising with his fellow nobles and keeping the deals he had made to further his policies.

Interesting theory

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Both Tywin, Kevan and Renly understood that, which is why the Realm would have been stable enough under them.

Tywin and Kevan bungled almost every step at their time in KL. Their government is hysterically evaporating and it's only mostly because of Cersei. (RW, not defending the Wall, not opening communication with Greyjoy, wanton tyranny, etc)

Renly would have done all that except place the Tyrells even higher on a pedestal, if that's possible

2 hours ago, frenin said:

He didn't understand it.

I think he did. KL is useless without a dragon. So what'd he want to do?

And he would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for that meddling kingslayer

2 hours ago, frenin said:

The Greyjoys would just sit and wait

Are you fucking kidding? Balon, Victarion, Euron, Aeron, Asha, Theon? Which one of them sits or waits?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Doran is Doran

A vengeful conniver who's dream of destroying the usurpers is his only obsession, currently clearing the landing bay for three targaryen dragons. Yea, Dorans Doran. Except now his brother is still alive

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Renly would have no other choice but to back Stannis (even if he craved the throne ).

did you just say Renly craved the throne? I fucks with it.

 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

The only ones who would have been targeted would have been the Lannisters but their only meaningful tie was that with the crown, severed that they would be isolated and facing destruction.

They are the most powerful house

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't think Tywin would march but who knows

You don't think so? I mean he'll march for the Imp, who he hates, but his daughter 3 grandkids and probably Jaime? Yes, who knows?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

With Stannis crowning we lose enlightened Stannis but we get not attached to Melisandre Stannis.

She was around then.

 

Im not talking about the lords. Im talking about the kingdom. The people, the pickpocketer and the drunken brawler, the hooker and the gambler. The realm will bleed

[Hugorfonics]

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Most Targaryen kings didn't even remotely rule like Stannis does or wants to do. Stannis shows no mercy, so whoever offends him or actually rebels against him can expect to lose his head and/or his lands and castle.

Except that's not actually true. He just wished it was. He begrudgingly showed mercy to the stormlords and after they betrayed him again he begrudgingly pardoned the northern lords, who claimed to follow Robb 

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dragonstone is a pretty small stronghold and Summerhall may have cost more than it was worth.

I always assumed they turned a profit. Not the castle but the lands it commands.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point there is that the Targaryens were foreign invaders who were accepted as overlords by everybody. They were viewed as being above the noble familes, not one of the them.

Word. I think that facade took about 100 years to crack

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Then, of course, no Targaryen king was as dependent on the support of 2-3 great houses to secure his kingship, nor did any other king (to our knowledge) pick his queen and his Hand from two great houses who loath each other. That also shows very poor judgment on Robert's part.

Yea I think marrying the most powerful house, especially for a usurper is also a terrible decision

[James Arryn]

Can’t talk long…babies…but one really under appreciated aspect of Renly’s life compared with Stannis was that Renly also endured the horrors of the siege of Storm’s End…as a ~ 5/6 year old child. He ‘well remembers’ starving and eating rats and shoe leather.

If anything that would have been a more traumatic experience, and yet most readers don’t even realize he was there too because Renly is not constantly whinging about all he’s suffered like Stannis. Well, who (aside from Cersei internally) does?

So remember that…and remember that unlike Robert and Stannis, Renly grew up an orphan with only the distant Robert and cold inflexible Stannis as older brothers…when you talk about him being soft or pampered. 

[Ran]

16 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Except that's not actually true. He just wished it was. He begrudgingly showed mercy to the stormlords and after they betrayed him again he begrudgingly pardoned the northern lords, who claimed to follow Robb 

Quote

"And when I come into my kingdom, he shall. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."

He pardoned people out of necessity, but as he notes at the time and then repeats later, he has not forgotten who they sided with, and those who made the "kingdom bleed" are going to "reap what [they have] sown."

His reign is going to be a bloody one.

[Hugorfonics]

53 minutes ago, Ran said:

He pardoned people out of necessity, but as he notes at the time and then repeats later, he has not forgotten who they sided with, and those who made the "kingdom bleed" are going to "reap what [they have] sown."

His reign is going to be a bloody one.

Oh yeah. Od bloody. Although he says that annihilating Claw Isle is evil, and only the old craven lords must die. 

This is mad bloody, so pretty bad, but long run? Do you know how to make an omelet? 

Quote

"I am lowborn," Davos reminded him. "An upjumped smuggler. Your lords will never obey me."

"Then we will make new lords."

 Most lords of Westeros are terrible, after all it's clearly not a meritocracy, but if Stannis like he wants, does a clean sweep then perhaps it won't be all bad. After all the quote you supplied started off with 

Quote

"I shall bring justice to Westeros. A thing Ser Axell understands as little as he does war. Claw Isle would gain me naught . . . and it was evil, just as you said. Celtigar must pay the traitor's price himself, in his own person. And when I come into my kingdom, he shall. Every man shall reap what he has sown...

Justice. That's a Dany word. We don't hear Renly or Tywin or Robert ever say such things, so while Stannis' reign would be Aerys bloody it would be for a good cause as opposed to a dragon transformation or something.

Id also like to emphasize one fabulous aspect of Stannis' government. Because although I've spent most this thread highlighting Westeros' absolute govt(s), I want to point out that Stannis' is on a path to be constitutional.

Quote

"Your Grace, you made me swear to give you honest counsel and swift obedience, to defend your realm against your foes, to protect your people. Is not Edric Storm one of your people? One of those I swore to protect? I kept my oath. How could that be treason?"

And he bought it! (Jesus quest helped)

Stannis' words are law, and the slick lawyer Davos apparently is, interpreted his oath to successfully frustrate the king. It's almost modern

[James Arryn]

46 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

 

Justice. That's a Dany word. We don't hear Renly or Tywin or Robert ever say such things, so while Stannis' reign would be Aerys bloody it would be for a good cause as opposed to a dragon transformation or something.

Technically true, but only because we don’t hear Renly say much at all before his murder. But we know from others that he does say the word. Which, btw, is just a word. Hitler said it often; it means w/e the speaker thinks it means. Anyways, while haranguing recently widowed Cat for Ned’s failings to him, we get:

[i]”I should have been Robert’s Hand.”

“That was your brother’s will. Ned never wanted it.”

“Yet he took it. That which should have been mine. Still, I give you my word, you shall have justice for his murder.”

How they loved to promise heads, these men who would be king. “[b]Your brother promised me the same. But if truth be told, I would sooner have my daughters back, and leave justice to the gods[/b].”[/i]

46 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

[Lord Varys]

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 I always assumed they turned a profit. Not the castle but the lands it commands.

It is certainly possible, but so far we have no idea how much land belonged to the lordship of Summerhall. Could have just been a summer palace with not much land.

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea I think marrying the most powerful house, especially for a usurper is also a terrible decision

If the marriage had worked out, it wouldn't have been that bad. But there would still be a clear shift of power from the king's family to the queen's family - the royal power would be shared rather than the queen just being the royal consort.

You also see that with the two factions at Stannis' court although on a much smaller level. You do have 'the king's men' and 'the queen's men'. That is due to Melisandre and Selyse becoming powerful players in their own right.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

He pardoned people out of necessity, but as he notes at the time and then repeats later, he has not forgotten who they sided with, and those who made the "kingdom bleed" are going to "reap what [they have] sown."

His reign is going to be a bloody one.

His whole declaration about making 'new lords' is another such hint.

Stannis is perhaps the most radical and most absolutist king to ever sit the Iron Throne. His monarchistic ideology is that everybody does what he says, that his decision is final and just by virtue of being a royal decision, and he is not interested in compromise or mediation if he can avoid it.

Which he could to a much larger degree had he ever crushed his enemies on the field and established himself on the Iron Throne.

Stannis would not bathe in the blood of entire families like Maegor or Aemond or Tywin ... at least as long as he deemed the women and children innocent. But he would take the head of everybody he viewed as a traitor, and he would attaint the families of such traitors, destroying various noble families in that way.

It is very difficult to imagine Stannis allowing the Lannisters of Casterly Rock to survive as a noble family he he would win the war. Back before Alester's treason one would also imagine he would have taken Highgarden from the Tyrells to grant it to the Florents instead. He would also pay Mel back for her help, by allowing her to forcefully convert Westeros to R'hllor, dealing with dissenters the way he dealt with Sunglass and company.

His rule might still be just and effectively better for a lot of people, especially the smallfolk, but Stannis' inflexibility and unwillingness to win the love of his people would make it all but impossible to secure his rule by creating a strong powerbase of supporters. Most common people might not even realize that the new king is the one who makes things better, and still adore dashing knights and lordlings like Renly and Loras.

I don't think Stannis' reign would be successful - he would be viewed as a tyrant and might be overthrown eventually - but if it was he would be remembered as a worse version of Aegon III.

And if you wonder about how Stannis might die ... I think his own men rebelling and murdering him, selling him to his enemies, abandoning him when he would have needed them, or some queen's men fanatics sacrificing him have still a very high chance there. George constantly tells us how unpopular this guy is, and that can be build-up for a rather unpleasant plot twist at the end.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Technically true, but only because we don’t hear Renly say much at all before his murder. But we know from others that he does say the word. Which, btw, is just a word. Hitler said it often; it means w/e the speaker thinks it means.

Word. Like how mercy to Joffrey means beheading. 

So when Tyrion plans to do what Cersei never expects I think he means being a good guy. Like justice as in the Justice League of America. The JLA are super heroes, not assassins, like the Kings Justice. Similarly when Stannis says Florent doesn't understand justice he's talking about law and stuff, not executions 

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Anyways, while haranguing recently widowed Cat for Ned’s failings to him, we get:

[i]”I should have been Robert’s Hand.”

“That was your brother’s will. Ned never wanted it.”

“Yet he took it. That which should have been mine. Still, I give you my word, you shall have justice for his murder.”

How they loved to promise heads, these men who would be king. “[b]Your brother promised me the same. But if truth be told, I would sooner have my daughters back, and leave justice to the gods[/b].”[/i]

It's a tricky word though for sure.

[Ran]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh yeah. Od bloody. Although he says that annihilating Claw Isle is evil, and only the old craven lords must die. 

This is mad bloody, so pretty bad, but long run? Do you know how to make an omelet? 

The old craven lords are going to call up their vassals and peasants to protect them when it becomes obvious that Stannis has not forgotten who really supported him and who "made the realm bleed." And Stannis will put it on those vassals and peasants for having failed to be loyal to him, and so they too shall "reap" what they have "sown".

Stannis is simply too uncompromising to be a good king. He has already decided that a bloodbath is what the realm needs to achieve perfect justice.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is certainly possible, but so far we have no idea how much land belonged to the lordship of Summerhall. Could have just been a summer palace with not much land.

Eggs dad lived there during Duncan times, people acted like he could raise an army, I assumed it was from his holdings

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If the marriage had worked out, it wouldn't have been that bad. But there would still be a clear shift of power from the king's family to the queen's family - the royal power would be shared rather than the queen just being the royal consort.

You also see that with the two factions at Stannis' court although on a much smaller level. You do have 'the king's men' and 'the queen's men'. That is due to Melisandre and Selyse becoming powerful players in their own right.

Certainly doesn't help that Stannis' army is mostly Florents these days

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis is perhaps the most radical and most absolutist king to ever sit the Iron Throne.

Perhaps. But his Hand is one of the most radical and liberal lords to ever run the kingdom

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Stannis' reign would be successful - he would be viewed as a tyrant and might be overthrown eventually

That old time religion. Burning gods and weirwoods for kicks won't win him friends

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Stannis is simply too uncompromising to be a good king

He'd be a terrible king (better then most but with Eurons and Joffs in the field it's hardly a compliment.) However Davos would be a brilliant Hand

[frenin]

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's probably not true. How many eyes does Bloodraven have? 

You will find it surprising but having a massive web of spies isn't magic. There's nothing magical about running your own Gestapo.

 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin and Kevan bungled almost every step at their time in KL. Their government is hysterically evaporating and it's only mostly because of Cersei. (RW, not defending the Wall, not opening communication with Greyjoy, wanton tyranny, etc)

Renly would have done all that except place the Tyrells even higher on a pedestal, if that's possible

They did not, the RW was placed on the Frey's feet and the North was "pacified" till Tywin died, the Greyjoys were doomed to fail anyway and so on.

Besides you're confusing being a good/decent ruler with being perfect, you can be decent and still fuck up. these are humans at the end of the day. Yet out all of the pretenders, this including the Targlings, Westeros's best chance of peace and prosperity, this not including the Others, after AGOT lied with Renly, Tywin and Kevan, it's not surprising things get more chaotic after each's death.

 

 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think he did. KL is useless without a dragon. So what'd he want to do?

And he would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for that meddling kingslayer

He would have turned like Egg, instead of simply burning a nice palace and a few hundreds, he'd have burned millions and th city.

 

 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Are you fucking kidding? Balon, Victarion, Euron, Aeron, Asha, Theon? Which one of them sits or waits?

All of them?

 

Quote

"No man has ever died from bending his knee," her father had once told her. "He who kneels may rise again, blade in hand. He who will not kneel stays dead, stiff legs and all." Balon Greyjoy had proved the truth of his own words when his first rebellion failed; the kraken bent the knee to stag and direwolf, only to rise again when Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark were dead.

Do you think they were sitting quietly and meekly because they loved Robert and Ned's rule?

 

 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

A vengeful conniver who's dream of destroying the usurpers is his only obsession, currently clearing the landing bay for three targaryen dragons. Yea, Dorans Doran. Except now his brother is still alive

His brother was alive for fifteen years of Robert's and Tywin's rule. He's not getting himself involved,

 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

did you just say Renly craved the throne? I fucks with it.

Nah, just that even if you choose to believe he craved the throne, he'd be forced to back Stannis anyway.

 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They are the most powerful house

They are certainly powerful but they are no match against several kingdoms their throat.  Ie, there's no reason Stannis makes the kingdom bleed. When Tywin marched his grandchildren were alive and in the throne and his enemies were dispersed. Would he march against a king who hates him and with the realm against him? Now, that would be something to see.

Stannis snubbed and resentful of the people who dismissed his claim and who waged a civil war under false claims however? Now, that one is going to be without mercy.

 

 

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She was around then.

 

Im not talking about the lords. Im talking about the kingdom. The people, the pickpocketer and the drunken brawler, the hooker and the gambler. The realm will bleed

He wasn't listening to a word he had to say then.

Stannis is just Maekar come again, if the Realm survived under the latter, it'd survive under the former.

 

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Eggs dad lived there during Duncan times, people acted like he could raise an army, I assumed it was from his holdings

It might be ... but then Maekar is also a Targaryen prince and a proven general and feared warrior, so people might be drawn to his banner whether he has much land or not.

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Certainly doesn't help that Stannis' army is mostly Florents these days

It should be mostly Florents, but pretty much no queen's man we meet in ADwD is a Florent or has Florent ties or is even from the Reach.

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Perhaps. But his Hand is one of the most radical and liberal lords to ever run the kingdom

Davos doesn't run anything so far ... and whenever Davos' and Stannis' visions of what had to be done Stannis' would win.

The only way Davos can convince Stannis of anything is by pointing out that Stannis is acting against his own moral code.

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He'd be a terrible king (better then most but with Eurons and Joffs in the field it's hardly a compliment.) However Davos would be a brilliant Hand

I'd say that Stannis could actually be a worse king in the eye of the public than Joffrey, considering that good Hands and advisers might still be able to distract an adult Joffrey enough to keep him out of the day-to-day government for the most part. Stannis would never permit that and go through with whatever he decided.

You see that most of his decisions are solitary decisions which he then sees through by sidelining and/or destroying any opposition left at his court.

[James Arryn]

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Like how mercy to Joffrey means beheading. 

So when Tyrion plans to do what Cersei never expects I think he means being a good guy. Like justice as in the Justice League of America. The JLA are super heroes, not assassins, like the Kings Justice. Similarly when Stannis says Florent doesn't understand justice he's talking about law and stuff, not executions 

It's a tricky word though for sure.

To be fair, Stannis often means executions, as he (and Renly) did in the passage I quoted above.
 

But there’s another word that Renly does use, and Robb, and Dany, which Stannis does not*, and that’s peace. Renly might or might not be able to confront the Others, but he has (by far) the best chance to do so with a unified kingdom behind him. Stannis’ campaign of cutting off heads and setting up new lords would have the 7K a bloody divided mess at war with itself even more than it already is. Even if his way was feasible (it’s not) it’s complete suicide with what Westeros is facing.

*he uses it once in terms of the crime of breaching the peace, I think, but that’s an entirely different meaning. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

You will find it surprising but having a massive web of spies isn't magic. There's nothing magical about running your own Gestapo.

Bloodraven wants that bad

And he almost definitely had magic

1 hour ago, frenin said:

They did not, the RW was placed on the Frey's feet and the North was "pacified" till Tywin died, the Greyjoys were doomed to fail anyway and so on.

They did. Not successfully, it wasn't, they're winning

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Besides you're confusing being a good/decent ruler with being perfect, you can be decent and still fuck up. these are humans at the end of the day. Yet out all of the pretenders, this including the Targlings, Westeros's best chance of peace and prosperity, this not including the Others, after AGOT lied with Renly, Tywin and Kevan, it's not surprising things get more chaotic after each's death.

They're all pretty bad. KL is bad. Robbs kingdoms sounds nice, south looks like a lost cause. Idk, I'm into this Davos fella. He could do great things. He's like Ned with balls

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Do you think they were sitting quietly and meekly because they loved Robert and Ned's rule?

They were waiting for the first chance of weakness, for instance Lannister vs Stark. That's this scenario too.

And you didn't mention Euron. I can't stress this enough, the world's bigger then the red keep.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

His brother was alive for fifteen years of Robert's and Tywin's rule. He's not getting himself involved

Except he did at the first chance a available. And Doran is knee deep in Essos politics all to throw one blow at usurpers 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

They are certainly powerful but they are no match against several kingdoms their throat. 

That's not how the war of five kings played out

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Would he march against a king who hates him and with the realm against him?

Obviously. KL doesn't actually matter and Tywins ego knows no bounds

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Stannis is just Maekar come again, if the Realm survived under the latter, it'd survive under the former.

One had dragons...

 

 

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It might be ... but then Maekar is also a Targaryen prince and a proven general and feared warrior, so people might be drawn to his banner whether he has much land or not.

Could be

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It should be mostly Florents, but pretty much no queen's man we meet in ADwD is a Florent or has Florent ties or is even from the Reach.

Axel is around, hes waiting to marry Val I think.

But for sure, your right too. Lots of red stormmen

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Davos doesn't run anything so far ... and whenever Davos' and Stannis' visions of what had to be done Stannis' would win.

The only way Davos can convince Stannis of anything is by pointing out that Stannis is acting against his own moral code.

Davos actually frustrated Stannis' scheme. He basically told the king no. Jon Arryn couldn't do that, the brother who died by Eggs dad couldn't do that. This could be a turning part of Westeros governing.

The fact that he's m.i.a seems to me he's really going to do whatever he wants, on behalf of Westeros

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd say that Stannis could actually be a worse king in the eye of the public than Joffrey

Joff took a crossbow to the crowd. I don't care how many trees get rooted, there's no topping Joff, especially once his father is revealed 

 

 

53 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

To be fair, Stannis often means executions,

No doubt. But he didn't there.

53 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

But there’s another word that Renly does use, and Robb, and Dany, which Stannis does not*, and that’s peace. Renly might or might not be able to confront the Others, but he has (by far) the best chance to do so with a unified kingdom behind him. Stannis’ campaign of cutting off heads and setting up new lords would have the 7K a bloody divided mess at war with itself even more than it already is. Even if his way was feasible (it’s not) it’s complete suicide with what Westeros is facing.

*he uses it once in terms of the crime of breaching the peace, I think, but that’s an entirely different meaning

So the quote Ran pulled up. It starts with, uh, well heres the full thing. 

Quote

"Look at it, onion knight. My realm, by rights. My Westeros." He swept a hand across it. "This talk of Seven Kingdoms is a folly. Aegon saw that three hundred years ago when he stood where we are standing. They painted this table at his command. Rivers and bays they painted, hills and mountains, castles and cities and market towns, lakes and swamps and forests . . . but no borders. It is all one. One realm, for one king to rule alone."

"One king," agreed Davos. "One king means peace."

"I shall bring justice to Westeros. A thing Ser Axell understands as little as he does war. Claw Isle would gain me naught . . . and it was evil, just as you said. Celtigar must pay the traitor's price himself, in his own person. And when I come into my kingdom, he shall. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that." King Stannis turned from the table. "On your knees, Onion Knight."

Davos is the peace guy. Stannis doesn't refute this but he does immediately make him hand. Looks like a stamp of approval to me. And I really do think Davos is a man in million, he's like Tyrion but with a heart

[frenin]

I will put this convo under spoilers because I'm feeling we're derailing a little bit and i don't want to make it more annoying to anyone. I hate scrolling down through long threads and i'm to blame on many of them. 

@Hugorfonics

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Bloodraven wants that bad

And he almost definitely had magic

 

Bloodraven may have had magic when he rule or he may not but he definitely did not rule through  magic, he ruled through a massive net of spies and the fear that brought. There's nothing magical about the way he dealt with the Blackfyres.

 

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They did. Not successfully, it wasn't, they're winning

People did not believe them but they had plausible deniability which is what's matter.

The Greyjoys controlled four castles... But you and i had a loong discussion about this, so unless you're ready to revive that thread, let's agree to disagree then.

 

 

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They're all pretty bad. KL is bad. Robbs kingdoms sounds nice, south looks like a lost cause. Idk, I'm into this Davos fella. He could do great things. He's like Ned with balls

They are the best the Realm has to offer. 

 

 

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They were waiting for the first chance of weakness, for instance Lannister vs Stark. That's this scenario too.

And you didn't mention Euron. I can't stress this enough, the world's bigger then the red keep.

Asha makes it clear, they were waiting for their jailors to die. And Lannister v Stark is a chance of weakness, Lannister v Stark, Tully, Baratheon, and Tyrell (possibly Arryns) it's not weakness.

Euron was smart to know when he had lost and sail the high seas after they were defeated.

 

 

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Except he did at the first chance a available. And Doran is knee deep in Essos politics all to throw one blow at usurpers 

Little did i know that Doran rebelled against Robert after he tppk the throne like Oberyn demanded or that Doran did jack shit during Balon's rebellion.

Doran may plan whatever he wants, he's not someone who rushes into anything and he's not helping either Robert or Tywin anyway.

 

 

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That's not how the war of five kings played out

No, the war of the five kings were different factions fighting and betraying and allying each other. This is Balon's rebellion 2.0, most of the realm against a single target.

 

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Obviously. KL doesn't actually matter and Tywins ego knows no bounds

He def strikes as prideful, not as suicidal, else he would have acted against Aerys sooner not when he was done for.

 

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One had dragons...

Dragons had been dead for almost a hundred years when Maekar became king.

 

 

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"Though it's a fool's law, wouldn't you agree? Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted? The crown will suit me, as it never suited Robert and would not suit Stannis. I have it in me to be a great king, strong yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient—"
"—humble?" Catelyn supplied.
Renly laughed. "You must allow a king some flaws, my lady."

Renly said this of himself and admitted he was an arrogant fella but for the little we do see of him, he does displays every single of those qualities, including arrogance, there's certainly some vapid sense on him that turned off seniors but i hadn't seen a single better candidate yet.

[Springwatch]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Most Targaryen kings didn't even remotely rule like Stannis does or wants to do. Stannis shows no mercy, so whoever offends him or actually rebels against him can expect to lose his head and/or his lands and castle.

Not so. Not with Davos as Hand. Or even without him -  he didn't need persuasion from Davos to pardon Renly's men (in his own style):

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"[..] these lords who flocked to my brother's banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten." He fell silent for a moment, brooding on his plans for justice.

Stannis can be pragmatic.

(Can't get atuned to this thread, not staying. @Hugorfonics has the best arguments I've seen.)

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Stannis can be pragmatic.

As already noted with the lines I quoted earlier, once he has the throne he means to settle the score with those who contributed to making the realm bleed . He's pragmatic out of necessity in the moment. He's not intending to stay that way should he come into power.

Whether Davos can dissuade him of that when they come to cross the bridge, no one knows. But this vision of Stannis having permanently forgiven those who he sees as traitors and betrayers is just wrong. The good (finally choosing his side) does not wash out the bad (not having chosen his side to begin with).

[sifth]

He seemed like a decent person. Much better than Joff, Balon and possibly even Robb.