The Seed is Strong.

[AlaskanSandman]

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard V
"Was there nothing else? No final words?"
"When I saw that all hope had fled, I gave the Hand the milk of the poppy, so he should not suffer. Just before he closed his eyes for the last time, he whispered something to the king and his lady wife, a blessing for his son. The seed is strong, he said. At the end, his speech was too slurred to comprehend. Death did not come until the next morning, but Lord Jon was at peace after that. He never spoke again."

 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI
Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be."

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII
The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

Stark in German means Strong
 

The Seed is Strong, and Tya Lannister bore forth a Large and Lusty Lad.

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Ryam was considered the greatest knight of his day,[6] accomplished at sword and lance.[7] During the tourney celebrating Jaehaerys's tenth year of coronation, young Ryam unhorsed Ser Ronnal Baratheon, Arthor Oakheart, Lord Simon Dondarrion, and Ser Harys Hogg, as well as Ser Lorence Roxton and Ser Lucamore Strong of the Kingsguard. Ryam crowned Queen Alysanne Targaryen as the tourney's queen of love and beauty.[8]
With Queen Alysanne being crowned Queen of Love and Beauty, and likely getting a rose. While Lucamore Strong is later sent to the Wall. (We'll get back to him). Alysanne though, has some of the pieces we see later with Lyanna.
In 51 AC, a pregnant Alysanne accompanied Jaehaerys on his first royal progress, touring the crownlands. At Duskendale Alysanne held the first of her famous women's courts, where she heard women of all ages and births bring her their fears, hopes and consternations. These courts would be held every time the queen visited a castle, town or city. The progress continued to the riverlands, where Alysanne and Jaehaerys eventually arrived at Maidenpool. There, the pregnant Alysanne wished to bathe in Jonquil's Pool. Jaehaerys's Doctrine of Exceptionalism had won over most of the pious in the realm, but not all. Some of the women who tended Jonquil's Pool believed that the pool's sacred waters would become polluted if the queen, pregnant with the king's "abomination", were to enter the waters. While she was inside, Alysanne was attacked by three of these women with daggers. As only women were allowed in the bathhouse, Alysanne was accompanied only by her maids and septas, who did not hesitate to protect Alysanne by stepping between Alysanne and her would-be assassins. Their shouts alarmed the two Kingsguard knights who stood outside, who burst in and slew two of the attackers, sparing the third for questioning. Under questioning, the remaining would-be assassin revealed the names of half a dozen more in the order who had helped plan the assault. Lord Mooton hanged the guilty women of the order, and planned to hang the innocent ones as well; Alysanne convinced him otherwise.[18]
We are also told of Alysanne bathing in Jonquil's pool before her first birth. Like the legend of Jonquil when Florian discovered her. With her K.G. bursting in and seeing this "jonquil" naked in the pool.

Then we are told something quite interesting about Lusty Lucamore Strong. We are introduced to him right before going into Alysanne.

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“After hours of blood and clangor, however, the last man left standing was a strapping young knight from the riverlands, a broad-shouldered blond bull called Ser Lucamore Strong.

Soon after the conclusion of the tourney, Queen Alysanne left King’s Landing for Dragonstone, there to await the birth of her child.”
“In 57 AC, Jaehaerys and his queen found cause to rejoice again when the gods blessed them with another son. Baelon, he was named, after one of the Targaryen lords who had ruled Dragonstone before the Conquest, himself a second son. Though smaller than his brother, Aemon, at birth, the new babe was louder and lustier*, and his wet nurses complained that* they had never known a child to suck so hard.”

 

Baelon was Lusty, just like Lusty Lucamore.
 

Idk who the 3 wives were and no guesses as yet to his 16 children.

 

Gowen Baratheon though was the 3rd son of some Lord Baratheon during the reign of Aegon V. With Lyonel Baratheon being Lord at some point during the reign of Aegon V.

Lyonel is known for rebellion against Aegon V after Dunk Targaryen spurns his daughter for Jenny of Old Stones. Only making peace when Ormund his son is wed to Rhaella Targaryen, Aegon V's sister. Ormund also heped in the War of the Nine Penny Kings. With his son being Steffon, and grandkids being Robert, Stannis, and Renly. All big lusty men (Stannis bangs Melisandre while married, don't tell me he isn't lusty)

Tya Lannister is around the time of Gerold Lannister who this is said about him

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The Sworn Sword

 

"That is not to say there has been no one. Cleyton Caswell and Simon Leygood have been the most persistent, though they seem more interested in her lands than in her person. Were I given to wagering, I should place my gold on Gerold Lannister. He has yet to put in an appearance, but they say he is golden-haired and quick of wit, and more than six feet tall . . ."

there is also this about Gerold's older brother

 

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Despite being a young and healthy man, he died under suspicious circumstances in 212 AC. Tybolt was briefly succeeded by his three-year-old daughter, Cerelle Lannister, with Tybolt's younger brother Gerold as her regent. However, she passed away less than a year later, leading many to suspect Gerold of having a hand in their deaths, as he succeeded Cerelle as Lord of Casterly Rock.^[2]

With Gerold being married to a Farman, whose family stole 3 dragon eggs during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

This doesn't go back far enough to Lucamore Strong or Breakbones yet but I think there is more evidence to likely get it there. Just wanted to share and get ideas into the Lannisters and Baratheons being Strong's. Gerolds dad was Damon Lannister with not a lot to go on there other than it goes back to Daeron II's reign. 

We know Lucamore's bastards were hidden as Rivers, Waters and Storms. None were mentioned though to be Hills of the Westerlands. So maybe the Lannisters got Strong genes from the Baratheons who got it from Storm bastards. 

I am curious at to who the 3 wives and 16 kids were of Lucamore and wonder what other clues may point to things.

 

Jon Arryn told Cersei though, who ends up with a Ser Robert Strong. Curtesy of Qyburn. With the Clegans being big, and hounds evolving from Wolves. 

The Seed is Strong.

(still working on a bigger theory but doing research to see what I can find)

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

If I were to suspect some where one of these bastard children of Lucamore may have ended up is in House Frey. With Walder Frey being one of the Lustiest chaps we know.

Walder's sister married Ambrose Butterwell after Walder caught her with a servant. So Butterwell's may have some of the Strong genes too.

Walder's 3rd son wed Genna Lannister, sister of Tywin. Both children of Tytos, son of Tybolt, who may be brothers to Tya Lannister. Or Damon, son of Tytos, is the son of Tya.

There is another Lannister marriage to a Baratheon though before Tya, 30 years earlier.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

This stuff is interesting to think about, and I think it's pretty clear that GRRM has some plans for House Strong and their seed. 

One question though: You mention the German meaning of "stark," but how does that factor into House Strong, in-story?

To me, House Stark lines up pretty well with the plain English meaning of stark: stiff, rigid, obstinate; stern, severe, hard, or harsh.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, Phylum of Alexandria said:

This stuff is interesting to think about, and I think it's pretty clear that GRRM has some plans for House Strong and their seed. 

One question though: You mention the German meaning of "stark," but how does that factor into House Strong, in-story?

To me, House Stark lines up pretty well with the plain English meaning of stark: stiff, rigid, obstinate; stern, severe, hard, or harsh.

 

House Stark are from the Reach and likely left behind branch houses as they made their way North. 

There are other naming conventions between them and clues. You can get a good rundown in this vid of some of the Stark connections.

 

Im not reaching that far back just yet though myself. Im more just trying to work backwards from Robert and Brienne, to Alysanne and Lucamore.

[AlaskanSandman]

Dunk's shield is that of a Tree with a shooting star over it. One that Brienne finds in one of her chapters among old things. (Knight of the Laughing Tree)

So Brienne was born in 280ac and is the youngest of 4. With Galladon, Arianne, and Alyanne being older than her. Every one of these is interesting, with Alysanne being the most obvious clue, as we tie her and House Strong to Brienne and Dunk.

So Galladon is the Perfect Knight who is given a magic sword by the Maid who fell for him (the Maiden is a star, so a metaphor of a falling star). He only draws the sword 3x and not once against a moral. Similar to the myth of Azor Ahai who has a magic sword forged 3x in water (An Other), a lion (Lannister), and then his wife Nissa Nissa who could be an immortal like Melisandre, or possibly Alys Rivers (We'll come back to her, a bastard of House Strong). This all with falling star's points to House Dayne. As if these nods were not enough, the Lord Even(Star) of Even(Fall) points to Starfall. The Home of House Dayne, who have a magical sword Dawn said to be forged from the Heart of a Dying Star.

Arianne is interesting cause it points to Arianne Martell and House Martell of Dorne. Which House Dayne is also in Dorne. I've pointed before to Arianne and her Soiled Knight Ary's Oakheart whose chapter is the 13th chapter of AFFC. With Ary's thinking about Lusty Lucamore Strong, and others who slept with their Queen. This chapter also points to a plotting K.G.

The next is "Naughty" Queen Alysanne who has a Tower named after her, "Queen's Crown" which Crowning is a birthing term. This Tower is in the North where House Stark rule. Whose name in German means "Strong".

The Starks and the Wildlings are the same blood as pointed out by Ygritte to Jon with the Bael the Bard story. With Mance appearing as Bael-Abel and being called Bael by Jon upon learning Mance was at Winterfell when Robert visited. With Mance being born on a Wildling, possibly at White Tree, and possibly by L.C. Qorgyle who had Mance attend him to Winterfell. Where Mance first saw, or checked up on Jon Snow.

Alysanne being who connects the Starks and Strongs to the Targaryens.

 

Speaking of Alys Rivers. She was wed to Aemon One Eye, who fought Daemon Targaryen at Harrenhal where Daemon carved 13 into a Weirwood in the Gods wood. Alys is seen bathing in a pool and wanting revenge, while Bran Stark has a vision of a woman bathing in a pool saying that her child will seek revenge.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

 

 

 

With a girl after wards kissing a Knight many believed to be Dunk and Old Nan. Leading to Hodor eventually. Who, along with Bran, on the 13th chapter of ADWD meet Bloodraven who was L.C. of the Night's Watch for 13 years. With the Night's King being the 13th L.C.

 

Just some other connections that may or may not play into things. With Brienne being the descendant of Dunk and a possible Strong.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Not related to your thesis, but I like that the Strong sigil has the red, green, and blue stripes against a white field. Perhaps some soft support for my trichromatic theory of magic! 

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Not related to your thesis, but I like that the Strong sigil has the red, green, and blue stripes against a white field. Perhaps some soft support for my trichromatic theory of magic! 

White field of snow/ice.  Another sigil in a white field:

File:House Stark.svg - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)  

[LynnS]

51 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There are other naming conventions between them and clues. You can get a good rundown in this vid of some of the Stark connections.

I do like Joe Magician.  The Starks and the Strongs are dangerous!  Dangerous enough for Aerys to try and eliminate both House Stark and Baratheon.

[LynnS]

OK, I'm going to cause an uproar...

I think Jon Arryn is specifically referring to Robert's bastards. If the seed is Strong and that's present in both the Baratheon and Stark bloodlines;  what is to say that Baratheon features would dominate over Stark features?

[AlaskanSandman]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do like Joe Magician.  The Starks and the Strongs are dangerous!  Dangerous enough for Aerys to try and eliminate both House Stark and Baratheon.

Well its interesting Cause Baelon and possibly Alyssa, are Lucamore's. Baelon and Alyssa have kids together, having Viserys I and Daemon the Rogue Prince. With Viserys hooking with with Aemma Arryn to produce Rhaenyra, while producing Aegon II and Helaena who  create Jaehaera. 

Daemon though, and Rhaenyra, produce Aegon III the dragon's bane. A double Strong through Daemon, and a half Strong from Rhaenyra. It would appear the Strong's and Arryn's killed off the dragons. 

Rhaenyra's other kids had Velaryon genes. Aegon III had Hightower Genes. Now, nothing seem's to change much going forward for House Stark. 

A fuss is made though over Daena the defiant. The child of Aegon III and Jaehaera. This line though ends up in Daemon Blackfyre, who still can't hatch dragons. Though Illyrio who is possibly with the Blackfyres gives Dany 3 eggs that she hatches.

There is a Martell, Dayne, and Blackwood marriages that neither produces Dragons. Which is weird.

There is all this Baratheon and Lannister talk too.

Blackwoods and Starks have mated before too with no dragons being produced. 

Its all a little confusing and was hoping people on the forum had some thoughts on it all

[Thandros]

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaenyra's other kids had Velaryon genes. Aegon III had Hightower Genes. Now, nothing seem's to change much going forward for House Stark. 

A fuss is made though over Daena the defiant. The child of Aegon III and Jaehaera. This line though ends up in Daemon Blackfyre, who still can't hatch dragons. Though Illyrio who is possibly with the Blackfyres gives Dany 3 eggs that she hatches.

A couple of errors. They don't exactly affect the theory though. None of Rhaenyra's children likely had Velaryon blood unless you think their Strong like appearance came from her and Laenor was actually their father. Aegon III had no Hightower blood at all. Daena the defiant is the child of Aegon III and Daenaera Velaryon not Jaehaera. 

I'm not sure what the entire connection is with dragon hatching I prefer to think the Maesters had something to do with it rather than it being a conspiracy involving an extinct house.

Of course if you really wanted to go ham on all this Strong stuff with Lucamore the Lusty being Baelon and Alyssa's father then why not go the next step and suggest Viserys during his reign somehow became aware of this which is why he was so insistent on making Rhaenyra heir as she was the only one who could arguably make some kind of legitimate claim to the throne and marrying her off to Laenor an attempt to restore the correct line of succession as painlessly as possible.

It of course assumes that you think Lucamore and Alysanne actually had two children which I don't buy to be fair. The other stuff about the Strongs being connected to the Starks. Maybe but I don't think the German translation of Stark being strong helps your case since you could technically translate the German stark as stark (stark possesses an archaic definition roughly meaning strong) and they are both cognates so you could argue they are the same word. The Starks are probably related to most houses of First men origin somehow and I'm not sure what would make the Strongs so important.

The more interesting way to translate Stark is through Kashubian where Stark translates apparently as grandfather or old man which I sure if you wanted to could allow you to go ham on theories if you wanted.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Thandros said:

A couple of errors. They don't exactly affect the theory though. None of Rhaenyra's children likely had Velaryon blood unless you think their Strong like appearance came from her and Laenor was actually their father. Aegon III had no Hightower blood at all. Daena the defiant is the child of Aegon III and Daenaera Velaryon not Jaehaera. 

I'm not sure what the entire connection is with dragon hatching I prefer to think the Maesters had something to do with it rather than it being a conspiracy involving an extinct house.

Of course if you really wanted to go ham on all this Strong stuff with Lucamore the Lusty being Baelon and Alyssa's father then why not go the next step and suggest Viserys during his reign somehow became aware of this which is why he was so insistent on making Rhaenyra heir as she was the only one who could arguably make some kind of legitimate claim to the throne and marrying her off to Laenor an attempt to restore the correct line of succession as painlessly as possible.

It of course assumes that you think Lucamore and Alysanne actually had two children which I don't buy to be fair. The other stuff about the Strongs being connected to the Starks. Maybe but I don't think the German translation of Stark being strong helps your case since you could technically translate the German stark as stark (stark possesses an archaic definition roughly meaning strong) and they are both cognates so you could argue they are the same word. The Starks are probably related to most houses of First men origin somehow and I'm not sure what would make the Strongs so important.

The more interesting way to translate Stark is through Kashubian where Stark translates apparently as grandfather or old man which I sure if you wanted to could allow you to go ham on theories if you wanted.

Well its not my theory and thank you for the correction, but yea. I dont know what to make of the Strong theory. Its interesting, but l can't see what the point of them would be. That's why im curious if anyone else had any thoughts for or against the idea. 

I always suspected Gael and Baelon of being Starks, but that got messed up a little by Fire and Blood. The Strongs being Starks though and Alyssane mixing with them is roughly the same effect. Starks already mixing with Targs and appearing to kill of the dragons.

Even that idea though isn't full proof as I don't know what the Dayne, Martell, and Blackwood lines did. They seem like they didn't do anything. This though pokes holes in any idea of Dany having magical blood as a reason she hatched dragons. Which im not opposed to. Even if she is a Dayne-Heiress. She could've just hatched them through blood magic and the right circumstances. 

A lot of info that would connect Aegon V's time to Alysanne though hasn't been released and will be in Fire and Blood 2. Unless it was snuck into Dunk and Egg novellas. 

 

That being said, Alysanne does show other things though.

She was Queen of Love and Beauty to Ryam, but was taken by Lucamore possibly. Who may have been the K.G. who saw her bathing in a pool naked when he saved her. She likely got a rose for the Tourney. And Lucamore was not only a K.G but also a Blackbrother. Pieces seen in both the Maris the Maid legend, Alysanne's, Lyanna's and Sansa's.

Alysanne is just Ae Lyanna anyways. Maybe suggesting the Starks are Targs and the two are already mixed. Which does circle back to Strongs being Starks. 

Edit-

Sansa is given a rose by Loras but taken by Dontos for Baelish. Who may have a thing for her and may want to knock her up in some dungeon. With Yoren in K.L. around the time.

Maris the Maid is given a rose presumably by Argoth win he wins her and crowns her queen of Love and Beauty. For her to be taken by Uthor of the Hightower and giving Uthor two kids birthed in the lower dungeons of the Hightower base. As Hightower was built by Bran the Builder the nephew of Maris.  With Bran being tied to the Night's Watch, having built the Wall. 

Alysanne is given a rose by Ryam but taken by Lucamore Storng and knocked up with a kid. (Maybe at Queen's Crown, but who knows). Lucamore tho is a K.g who spies her naked in a pool and then becomes a Blackbrother having having some bastards. Alysanne's name points to her being a Lyanna architype. (lyanna-se) 

What does se mean in words?

 

 

apart

 

a prefix meaning “apart,” occurring in loanwords from Latin: seduce; select. [< Latin sē(d) (preposition), sē- (prefix) without, apart]

 

SE - definition of SE by The Free Dictionary

OR she is different. Not sure how to take the extra se left over. (Maybe this is reaching, but her myths do seem to match Lyanna)

Lyanna Stark is given a rose by Rhaegar and a Blackbrother is in attendance at Harrenhal. This is all we know for fact.

She should be taken by someone other than Rhaegar who gives her the rose though, and knocked up by someone associated with the Night's Watch and Bastards. 

If Mance Rayder is the Knight in a motely of armor, then he would fit the Florian the Fool role with Lyanna as Jonquil the flower. Jonquil is a yellow flower though and a K.G should be involved. Incidentally, we have a golden K.G. in Jamie Lannister who was at Harrenhal for the Feast but told to go to K.L.

With this quote giving pause.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII
The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

 

If Alysanne is mixed up with Strongs, and Strongs are mixed up with Lannisters. Jamie being a K.G. and of an age with Lyanna is suspect. Jamie certainly couldn't compete in the Tourney either as Aery's told him to go home. 

[AlaskanSandman]

 

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime IV

One day, he heard Urswyck say something about Harrenhal, and remembered that was to be their destination. That made him laugh aloud, and that made Timeon slash his face with a long thin whip. The cut bled, but beside his hand he scarcely felt it. "Why did you laugh?" the wench asked him that night, in a whisper.

"Harrenhal was where they gave me the white cloak," he whispered back. "Whent's great tourney. He wanted to show us all his big castle and his fine sons. I wanted to show them too. I was only fifteen, but no one could have beaten me that day. Aerys never let me joust." He laughed again. "He sent me away. But now I'm coming back."

They heard the laugh. That night it was Jaime who got the kicks and punches. He hardly felt them either, until Rorge slammed a boot into his stump, and then he fainted.

 

 

 

This and what I added above in the Edited section gives me pause to Jamie's involvement at Harrenhal

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its all a little confusing and was hoping people on the forum had some thoughts on it all

I fully admit that I'm not very good at all this genealogy stuff or figuring out where all the bastards ended up. You are much better at it than I am.  So I don't think I can make any guesses about it.

The main takeaway for me is that Starks, Baratheons and Targs all have the Strong bloodline to one degree or another.

I hate to bring up RLJ because it creates such a big problem I sure don't want to spend time on it.  It's the question of Robert's bastards and whether or not Jon is one of them.  That was all but eliminated when Martin hung out the 'don't look here sign' with the book of lineages.  When someone purposely directs my attention elsewhere, I start looking under the carpets.

If the Strong bloodline is responsible for the Baratheon look (the seed is Strong) what is there to say that it isn't equally as strong in the Stark bloodline in producing the Stark look?  That could account for why Jon has no Targ features as well, but I don't think I can eliminate Robert anymore either.

The ultimate irony of RLJ would be that it's true but the R stands for Robert.  It would also be ironic if Stannis raises his own brother's bastard to great bastard status without knowing they are Kin.  What does that do to Stannis' claim on succession?

 

[Thandros]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That being said, Alysanne does show other things though.

She was Queen of Love and Beauty to Ryam, but was taken by Lucamore possibly. Who may have been the K.G. who saw her bathing in a pool naked when he saved her. She likely got a rose for the Tourney. And Lucamore was not only a K.G but also a Blackbrother. Pieces seen in both the Maris the Maid legend, Alysanne's, Lyanna's and Sansa's.

First problem. Lucamore wasn't even a Kingsguard during the attack at Jonquil's Pool and the knights who did come to her defence are known, Ser Joffrey Doggett and Ser Gyles Morrigen (p199 of Fire and Blood). As for Ryam crowning Alysanne queen of Love and beauty I think you read too much into it. The gifting of a rose is something stated to be done by Loras at the start of every joust and I think you feel it is too important given he would have given out perhaps a dozen by the time he gave one to Sansa we don't know enough about how many rounds the tourney had. Though it was the only red rose he gave out that might have been because it was his last joust of the day or because Sansa had red hair. It doesn't seem to be a wider tradition anyone else follows any where I've seen.

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Sansa is given a rose by Loras but taken by Dontos for Baelish. Who may have a thing for her and may want to knock her up in some dungeon. With Yoren in K.L. around the time.

Maris the Maid is given a rose presumably by Argoth win he wins her and crowns her queen of Love and Beauty. For her to be taken by Uthor of the Hightower and giving Uthor two kids birthed in the lower dungeons of the Hightower base. As Hightower was built by Bran the Builder the nephew of Maris.  With Bran being tied to the Night's Watch, having built the Wall. 

Alysanne is given a rose by Ryam but taken by Lucamore Storng and knocked up with a kid. (Maybe at Queen's Crown, but who knows). Lucamore tho is a K.g who spies her naked in a pool and then becomes a Blackbrother having having some bastards. Alysanne's name points to her being a Lyanna architype. (lyanna-se) 

What does se mean in words?

 

 

apart

 

a prefix meaning “apart,” occurring in loanwords from Latin: seduce; select. [< Latin sē(d) (preposition), sē- (prefix) without, apart]

 

SE - definition of SE by The Free Dictionary

OR she is different. Not sure how to take the extra se left over. (Maybe this is reaching, but her myths do seem to match Lyanna)

Lyanna Stark is given a rose by Rhaegar and a Blackbrother is in attendance at Harrenhal. This is all we know for fact.

She should be taken by someone other than Rhaegar who gives her the rose though, and knocked up by someone associated with the Night's Watch and Bastards. 

If Mance Rayder is the Knight in a motely of armor, then he would fit the Florian the Fool role with Lyanna as Jonquil the flower. Jonquil is a yellow flower though and a K.G should be involved. Incidentally, we have a golden K.G. in Jamie Lannister who was at Harrenhal for the Feast but told to go to K.L.

You've tried to make the stories of four characters match but all of them have problems. Sansa was never queen of love and beauty she was simply given a rose by Loras after a joust an act he does to multiple unnamed women during the same tourney.Maris the Maid's story is probably entirely fabricated. Tourneys are the past time of knights and there weren't any knights before the arrival of the Andals. Likely singers have simply inserted a tourney into a song or story about Maris the Maid which may have been dubious in the first place. Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar though and everyone agrees on that even in story. Ned places her lasts words in his mind right next to his confrontation with the Kingsguard in the red mountains of Dorne.

As for your attempts to use etymology on Alysanne name to compare her to Lyanna it doesn't really work. For one none of these people's names actually mean anything. These aren't the Early Germans of Late Antiquity who did have names which meant something. There names picked for reasons which we aren't given but presumably Alysanne was a girl's name somewhere before hand. we don't exactly have a broad sweep of names from the early period to judge if it was around beforehand. Two the se add on you note is placed randomly with Alysanne's name compared to Lyanna which means it no longer holds it's meaning anyway.

[AlaskanSandman]

57 minutes ago, Thandros said:

Tourneys are the past time of knights and there weren't any knights before the arrival of the Andals.

Lann-Andal

Lanns' father Andal Adventurer.

House Tarth said to be Andal but they have a first man legend of Galladon of Morne. Their castle though is said to be Andal.

Storm's End is Andal with Round Towers.

The Oldest Tower at Winterfell is Round. 

The Hightower is Round.

Daeryssa and Serywn of the Mirror Shield

Ser Symeon Star Eyes

etc, etc, etc. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Andals were around back then and are responsible for the Pact on the God's being broken. That pact likely responsible for Garth the Green who sounds like one of the Green Men or Green Kings. Lann coming from a later time as his grandchild. When the Pact was likely broken as another of Garth's grandchildren, Bran the Builder, helped build the Wall and formed the Long Night. Along with building Winterfell, HIghtower, and Storm's End. All of which have round towers.

We are told of a King's Guard, possibly the Rainbow Guard, and dragon slayers. With Renly duplicating the Rainbow Guard while being a green armored and horned god like figure, like Garth. Who Durran is said to be related to.

So when you say that Maris was made up, Im not going to agree.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I fully admit that I'm not very good at all this genealogy stuff or figuring out where all the bastards ended up. You are much better at it than I am.  So I don't think I can make any guesses about it.

The main takeaway for me is that Starks, Baratheons and Targs all have the Strong bloodline to one degree or another.

I hate to bring up RLJ because it creates such a big problem I sure don't want to spend time on it.  It's the question of Robert's bastards and whether or not Jon is one of them.  That was all but eliminated when Martin hung out the 'don't look here sign' with the book of lineages.  When someone purposely directs my attention elsewhere, I start looking under the carpets.

If the Strong bloodline is responsible for the Baratheon look (the seed is Strong) what is there to say that it isn't equally as strong in the Stark bloodline in producing the Stark look?  That could account for why Jon has no Targ features as well, but I don't think I can eliminate Robert anymore either.

The ultimate irony of RLJ would be that it's true but the R stands for Robert.  It would also be ironic if Stannis raises his own brother's bastard to great bastard status without knowing they are Kin.  What does that do to Stannis' claim on succession?

 

You're more than welcome to bring up rlj or Robert  Im open to ideas.

[Thandros]

35 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lann-Andal

Lanns' father Andal Adventurer.

House Tarth said to be Andal but they have a first man legend of Galladon of Morne. Their castle though is said to be Andal.

Storm's End is Andal with Round Towers.

The Oldest Tower at Winterfell is Round. 

The Hightower is Round.

Daeryssa and Serywn of the Mirror Shield

Ser Symeon Star Eyes

etc, etc, etc. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Andals were around back then and are responsible for the Pact on the God's being broken. That pact likely responsible for Garth the Green who sounds like one of the Green Men or Green Kings. Lann coming from a later time as his grandchild. When the Pact was likely broken as another of Garth's grandchildren, Bran the Builder, helped build the Wall and formed the Long Night. Along with building Winterfell, HIghtower, and Storm's End. All of which have round towers.

We are told of a King's Guard, possibly the Rainbow Guard, and dragon slayers. With Renly duplicating the Rainbow Guard while being a green armored and horned god like figure, like Garth. Who Durran is said to be related to.

So when you say that Maris was made up, Im not going to agree.

There is no serious evidence for the Andals being in Westeros at that point.

The castles for one can be rebuilt and repaired and updated. Tales of the ancient castles being built in their current forms is ludicrous and even the Maesters simply believe the castles got rebuilt at some point to their current forms not the Andals were around thousands of years earlier than they were said to be. The earliest Hightowers were built of wood and clearly the actual stone Hightower was built after the Andals showed up.

Almost all of the accounts of Lann the Clever make him a first man. The handful that don't are clearly tales of a more dubious nature and not to be trusted.

Galladon of Morne is associated with Tarth the island not the house and the claims that he's an Andal also place him much later than the other tales possibly a champion from the Andal invasion when Morne itself was built or at the very least the set of ruins currently associated with Morne.

Symeon Star Eyes wasn't a knight it's just that the singers gave him that title because it sounded better for their hero to have a knighthood you know when you're singing to an audience influenced by Andal values of Knighthood.

Serywn of the Mirror is clearly such a mix of different tales and legends from different points of time and history that telling anything about him is nigh impossible.

If the best you can muster are the stories of bards to support these claims (a source so dubious no one takes it seriously), rebuilt parts of castles and other baseless claims.

The stuff about the Andals being involved in the breaking of the pact is reasonable but that probably only because the Andals invaded and killed most of the Children of the Forest long after the Long Night and the end of the Age of heroes.

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I fully admit that I'm not very good at all this genealogy stuff or figuring out where all the bastards ended up. You are much better at it than I am.  So I don't think I can make any guesses about it.

The main takeaway for me is that Starks, Baratheons and Targs all have the Strong bloodline to one degree or another.

I hate to bring up RLJ because it creates such a big problem I sure don't want to spend time on it.  It's the question of Robert's bastards and whether or not Jon is one of them.  That was all but eliminated when Martin hung out the 'don't look here sign' with the book of lineages.  When someone purposely directs my attention elsewhere, I start looking under the carpets.

If the Strong bloodline is responsible for the Baratheon look (the seed is Strong) what is there to say that it isn't equally as strong in the Stark bloodline in producing the Stark look?  That could account for why Jon has no Targ features as well, but I don't think I can eliminate Robert anymore either.

The ultimate irony of RLJ would be that it's true but the R stands for Robert.  It would also be ironic if Stannis raises his own brother's bastard to great bastard status without knowing they are Kin.  What does that do to Stannis' claim on succession?

 

Lynn I enjoy your train of thoughts usually but I feel like your on the wrong path here ... I've been following Heresys and with that in mind I understand how you came up with Robert being Jon's dad. but a huge problem is that Ned has no reason to hide Jon from Robert or anyone else in that scenario . Young Robert seemed like a good father to Mya and he would have surely cherished a son with Lyanna . pretending to sire Jon would only work for Ned if : a) Jon is Lyanna's with a man other than Robert in which case Ned would want to protect Jon from R's wroth and Lyanna's memory from becoming a "a willful woman who ran away herself" . b) Jon is Brandon's and is older than Robb which might cause some inherency issues if Northern bannermen want to oppose Ned one day (which with Ned's character I doubt it) 

and Sandman , ice side destroying dragon genes is a good idea ..anyways, sorry for dropping in but I don't have anything to add currently! 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

but a huge problem is that Ned has no reason to hide Jon from Robert or anyone else in that scenario

He does have a reason to hide that fact if Jon is Robert's bastard.  He would be in just as much danger from the Lannisters as he would be if he was Rhaegar's bastard.   Robert would certainly legitimize Jon and make him a great bastard.  He wouldn't stand a chance of survival at court.  We know what Tywin did to Rhaegar's children and we know what Cersei does to Robert's bastards.  She even rationalizes plotting to kill Jon at the Wall as doing Catelyn's job for her.

As for revealing that to Catelyn, there could always be the question of succession in that house and the conflict that could develop between brothers.  Something Ned wants to avoid.