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The Seed is Strong.


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53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He does have a reason to hide that fact if Jon is Robert's bastard.  He would be in just as much danger from the Lannisters as he would be if he was Rhaegar's bastard.   Robert would certainly legitimize Jon and make him a great bastard.  He wouldn't stand a chance of survival at court.  We know what Tywin did to Rhaegar's children and we know what Cersei does to Robert's bastards.  She even rationalizes plotting to kill Jon at the Wall as doing Catelyn's job for her.

As for revealing that to Catelyn, there could always be the question of succession in that house and the conflict that could develop between brothers.  Something Ned wants to avoid.  

but Lynn, Ned claimed Jon as his own before the Lannister betrothal. in that point , Tywin was only one of high lords in Robert's side. Robert would have probably legitimized his son before thinking of any marriage alliances. if he had a son with Lyanna ,his betrothed, he'd probably believed they were married in the eyes of gods anyways.

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You're more than welcome to bring up rlj or Robert :) Im open to ideas.

I'll put it this way... When we first read GoT, we're told that Ned is Jon's father.  Then we get the clues that he isn't but Lyanna is Jon's mother and Jon is Ned's foster son.  So the next question becomes who the hell is Jon's father.  Of all the possible XYZ theories out there, the only one that Martin goes to any trouble exclude is Robert.  He paints him as an unlikeable character who would rather let the good times roll and party like Bacchus than run the realm which is clearly not in his wheelhouse.  So we immediately dislike him in favor of the exotic and handsome Targ prince. 

However now we know the champion's crown was the poisonous winter rose/bitterbloom and I've since discovered that Fattest Leech discovered that a few years back.  I think it's one of those one in a hundred  theories that people dismiss for the preferred narrative.

It's certainly stops us from looking at the political situation operating below the surface.

Were you advancing Mance as Jon's father? I don't recall.

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3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

but Lynn, Ned claimed Jon as his own before the Lannister betrothal. in that point , Tywin was only one of high lords in Robert's side. Robert would have probably legitimized his son before thinking of any marriage alliances. if he had a son with Lyanna ,his betrothed, he'd probably believed they were married in the eyes of gods anyways.

I think you have to consider what Ned witnessed when he sees the bodies of Rhaegar's children and his comment to Robert that he would rather trust a pit viper than a Lannister when it comes to fostering someone else's child.  Lyanna is gone and the path is open for Tywin to offer Cersei.  I don't think he would have waited long or that Tywin's ambitions would have been lost on Ned..    

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2 hours ago, Thandros said:

There is no serious evidence for the Andals being in Westeros at that point.

The castles for one can be rebuilt and repaired and updated. Tales of the ancient castles being built in their current forms is ludicrous and even the Maesters simply believe the castles got rebuilt at some point to their current forms not the Andals were around thousands of years earlier than they were said to be. The earliest Hightowers were built of wood and clearly the actual stone Hightower was built after the Andals showed up.

Almost all of the accounts of Lann the Clever make him a first man. The handful that don't are clearly tales of a more dubious nature and not to be trusted.

Galladon of Morne is associated with Tarth the island not the house and the claims that he's an Andal also place him much later than the other tales possibly a champion from the Andal invasion when Morne itself was built or at the very least the set of ruins currently associated with Morne.

Symeon Star Eyes wasn't a knight it's just that the singers gave him that title because it sounded better for their hero to have a knighthood you know when you're singing to an audience influenced by Andal values of Knighthood.

Serywn of the Mirror is clearly such a mix of different tales and legends from different points of time and history that telling anything about him is nigh impossible.

If the best you can muster are the stories of bards to support these claims (a source so dubious no one takes it seriously), rebuilt parts of castles and other baseless claims.

The stuff about the Andals being involved in the breaking of the pact is reasonable but that probably only because the Andals invaded and killed most of the Children of the Forest long after the Long Night and the end of the Age of heroes.

Well, you've paraphrased the Maesters mostly, but not made any real convincing statements. Considering the Maesters pretend like the CoTF never existed and if they did, they are long gone. When we know that not only are they not gone, but have been south of the Neck.

They say the Andals cut down all the weirwoods, yet there are clearly weirwoods in every castle in the south.

They say Andals built the round towers and I guess the perfect walls of Storms End, even though they never build like this ever again and also they Eyrie was built when the Arryn's were jealous of the other castles of Westeros. Mean time the Gates of the Moon that was built before the Eyrie, has square towers.

 

But surrrrrre. I believe you and the Maesters. 

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14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'll put it this way... When we first read GoT, we're told that Ned is Jon's father.  Then we get the clues that he isn't but Lyanna is Jon's mother and Jon is Ned's foster son.  So the next question becomes who the hell is Jon's father.  Of all the possible XYZ theories out there, the only one that Martin goes to any trouble exclude is Robert.  He paints him as an unlikeable character who would rather let the good times roll and party like Bacchus than run the realm which is clearly not in his wheelhouse.  So we immediately dislike him in favor of the exotic and handsome Targ prince. 

However now we know the champion's crown was the poisonous winter rose/bitterbloom and I've since discovered that Fattest Leech discovered that a few years back.  I think it's one of those one in a hundred  theories that people dismiss for the preferred narrative.

It's certainly stops us from looking at the political situation operating below the surface.

Were you advancing Mance as Jon's father? I don't recall.

That's fair. I think Mance is, and one reason is due to GRRM ignoring him as the options even though the Bael legend has a King Beyond the Wall fathering a bastard on a Stark Maid. Mance is also mentioned before Rhaegar ever comes up.

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think you have to consider what Ned witnessed when he sees the bodies of Rhaegar's children and his comment to Robert that he would rather trust a pit viper than a Lannister when it comes to fostering someone else's child.  Lyanna is gone and the path is open for Tywin to offer Cersei.  I don't think he would have waited long or that Tywin's ambitions would have been lost on Ned..    

I know... but I believe Ned didn't think Robert marry a Lannister.. at least not in that point and not for some time after Lyanna's death. knowing Robert , I doubt Jon Arryn suggested Lannister match before Robert hearing of Lyanna's death and mourning her a bit . on the other hand , Ned would definitely share the terrible news in person when they reconcile. which would give Ned plenty of time and opportunity to share the news with a Robert who's not yet linked to Lannisters . Ned only doubted Robert when it came to other people's children , specifically children of men he was jealous of. 

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14 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I know... but I believe Ned didn't think Robert marry a Lannister.. at least not in that point and not for some time after Lyanna's death. knowing Robert , I doubt Jon Arryn suggested Lannister match before Robert hearing of Lyanna's death and mourning her a bit . on the other hand , Ned would definitely share the terrible news in person when they reconcile. which would give Ned plenty of time and opportunity to share the news with a Robert who's not yet linked to Lannisters . Ned only doubted Robert when it came to other people's children , specifically children of men he was jealous of. 

Sure.  But I do think Ned was astute enough to figure out where Robert would end up. We also don't yet know what promises Ned made to Lyanna or why she had to plead with him before he would agree.. We know he didn't like lying to Robert on his death bed or why Ned thinks he betrayed Robert.  Ned thinks he kept the truth from Robert.

Edited by LynnS
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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We know he didn't like lying to Robert on his death bed or why Ned thinks he betrayed Robert.  Ned thinks he kept the truth from Robert.

I think he believes he lied to and somewhat betrayed the trust of his friend because Robert was asking Ned to support and protect Joffrey.  Ned knew that his ultimate plan was to support Stannis over Joffrey, and stretched the truth by telling Robert that he would protect his children (i.e. the bastards) as if they were his own.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think he believes he lied to and somewhat betrayed the trust of his friend because Robert was asking Ned to support and protect Joffrey.  Ned knew that his ultimate plan was to support Stannis over Joffrey, and stretched the truth by telling Robert that he would protect his children (i.e. the bastards) as if they were his own.

Yes he wouldn't want to hurt Robert this way although he had every intention of telling Robert the truth when he returned from the hunt.  But I do think there is a subtext here because Ned also thinks of the promise he made to Lyanna.  Protecting Jon as if he was his own seems to be one of them.

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9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, you've paraphrased the Maesters mostly, but not made any real convincing statements. Considering the Maesters pretend like the CoTF never existed and if they did, they are long gone. When we know that not only are they not gone, but have been south of the Neck.

They say the Andals cut down all the weirwoods, yet there are clearly weirwoods in every castle in the south.

They say Andals built the round towers and I guess the perfect walls of Storms End, even though they never build like this ever again and also they Eyrie was built when the Arryn's were jealous of the other castles of Westeros. Mean time the Gates of the Moon that was built before the Eyrie, has square towers.

 

But surrrrrre. I believe you and the Maesters. 

Sure the Maesters are unreliable but they are certainly better than the singers you use to make your arguments about the Andals being in Westeros thousands of years before their is any evidence of them crossing the narrow sea. 

The about the COTF is that everyone thinks they are completely gone until Bran wanders into a cave and finds a few. Nobody seems to think they are around at all so the Maesters are hardly unique in this at all.

The reason why the Andal castles have weirwoods is because the early Andals were smart enough to realise that trying to convert everyone by force to the seven was a fools errand and kept them as a gesture of reconciliation between the faiths as a means of strengthening their hold in Westeros. Given that Humfrey Tegaue's attempt to do just that hundreds or thousands of years after the andals arrived provoked the revolt to topple his dynasty you could understand why conciliation might have been preferred particularly when the control of the Andals was still weak.

The gates of the moon has square towers because it is old. Early Andal castles had square towers and when later rebuilt they replaced them with round towers because round towers are more tricky to undermine. Given the location of the Gates of the Moon it is quite likely it is more vulnerable to being overlooked than undermined. As such the expense of rebuilding it's towers may have been too great for the benefit it might provide particularly given that the square towers aren't actually the ones at the very front of the castle.

Storm's End's perfect wall is clearly very odd. Maybe it's final form wasn't even built by the Andals themselves but by other even more skilled stoneworkers at some point in the distant past.

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More like the Seed is Wrong.  :D  There are too many families.  We should see a reduction as the story builds to its conclusion.  Robert Strong will almost certainly be the only prominent Strong in the remainder of the story.  Per Bran's dream, Strong will menace and threaten the Starks in the future. 

Direwolves are the ancestors of wolves.  They are, IRL, larger but not as developed as wolves.  Smaller brains and such. 

On 1/11/2022 at 8:31 AM, Phylum of Alexandria said:

To me, House Stark lines up pretty well with the plain English meaning of stark: stiff, rigid, obstinate; stern, severe, hard, or harsh.

Unadorned. Simple.  The German definition of the word probably has no meaning in the story. 

Edited by James West
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3 hours ago, Thandros said:

Sure the Maesters are unreliable but they are certainly better than the singers you use to make your arguments about the Andals being in Westeros thousands of years before their is any evidence of them crossing the narrow sea. 

The about the COTF is that everyone thinks they are completely gone until Bran wanders into a cave and finds a few. Nobody seems to think they are around at all so the Maesters are hardly unique in this at all.

The reason why the Andal castles have weirwoods is because the early Andals were smart enough to realise that trying to convert everyone by force to the seven was a fools errand and kept them as a gesture of reconciliation between the faiths as a means of strengthening their hold in Westeros. Given that Humfrey Tegaue's attempt to do just that hundreds or thousands of years after the andals arrived provoked the revolt to topple his dynasty you could understand why conciliation might have been preferred particularly when the control of the Andals was still weak.

The gates of the moon has square towers because it is old. Early Andal castles had square towers and when later rebuilt they replaced them with round towers because round towers are more tricky to undermine. Given the location of the Gates of the Moon it is quite likely it is more vulnerable to being overlooked than undermined. As such the expense of rebuilding it's towers may have been too great for the benefit it might provide particularly given that the square towers aren't actually the ones at the very front of the castle.

Storm's End's perfect wall is clearly very odd. Maybe it's final form wasn't even built by the Andals themselves but by other even more skilled stoneworkers at some point in the distant past.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.
"She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest."

 

 
 

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

Meera said, "You speak the Common Tongue now."
"For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."
"Two hundred years?" said Meera

 

 
The Maesters are well aware that Jenny came to K.L. with a wood's witch said to be Cotf, plus Leaf walked among them for 200 years. Bran going into a cave beyond the wall is not the only example.
 
 
And how do you know the Andals built square fortress first and then later round ones after coming to Westeros? Yet the first men didn't built them? How do you know any of those castle we're built after the Andals as you claim. 
 
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A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

“Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

Lets consider this.


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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing.

 

 

 
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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

 

The Glass Candles came to Old Town when the Andals had invaded most of Westeros 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

The two queens smiled at one another and exchanged courtesies instead. Then Lady Sharra sent for the three crowns (her own regent's coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown of Mountain and Vale that the Arryn kings had worn for a thousand years), and surrendered them to Queen Visenya, along with the swords of her garrison. And it was said afterward that the little king flew thrice about the summit of the Giant's Lance and landed to find himself a little lord. Thus did Visenya Targaryen bring the Vale of Arryn into her brother's realm.

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale: House Arryn

The true tale of House Arryn contains neither giants nor griffins nor huge falcons, yet from the day Ser Artys first donned the Falcon Crown to the present, they have rightly held a storied place in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. 

 

The Arryns have only been ruling for about 1000 years before Aegon conquered.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

"Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

The Blackwoods coming south after the Starks booted them out.

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever.
Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).

 

 
 
Meaning the Starks and the Long Night happened roughly 1500-2000 years before Aegon Conquered. With the Andals making early invasions that broke the Pact, and ending their invasions within  500-1000 years.
 
Its pretty implied that the Andals were around during the Age of Heroes as stated by the legends.
 
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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:
The Maesters are well aware that Jenny came to K.L. with a wood's witch said to be Cotf, plus Leaf walked among them for 200 years. Bran going into a cave beyond the wall is not the only example.
 

One Jenny only claimed she was a child of the forest not that anyone actually thought that. Jenny's mental state is hard to grasp so she is probably wrong about. We actually meet this supposed COTF. They're the ghost of high heart and she has some odd appearances she doesn't look like a COTF so scratch that one.

As for Leaf walking the lands of men can mean a lot of things. Given that common is reasonably widely spoken among the lands beyond the wall their might even have been significant need for her to even cross the wall. Also she said she did it to watch and listen and learn. None of that means anyone saw her. The fact her heart was weary could easily be that she'd been alone for so long that she wanted to go home and meet someone to talk to. Just because she took the time to go into the lands of men doesn't mean anyone saw or her and if they did. Would anyone else believe it to be anything but the rambling of a madman.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:
And how do you know the Andals built square fortress first and then later round ones after coming to Westeros? Yet the first men didn't built them? How do you know any of those castle we're built after the Andals as you claim. 
 

It's said by Maester Kennet in WOIAF that the first men and early Andals didn't build round towers when noting the age of the first keep. Perhaps some of the first men did build stone castles with square towers but not round ones. If there isn't any evidence of the early andals or first men building round towers then any castles with round towers must either post date the Andal arrival by some time or had access to far superior stone building techniques than the early Andals. Winterfell's inner walls are noted to be at least two thousand years old and the outer walls somewhere over a thousand years. the first keep is older than both so must be closer to three thousand years old or so which is long after the Andal invasion if you place it out at four thousand years before Aegon's conquest.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:
Meaning the Starks and the Long Night happened roughly 1500-2000 years before Aegon Conquered. With the Andals making early invasions that broke the Pact, and ending their invasions within  500-1000 years.
 
Its pretty implied that the Andals were around during the Age of Heroes as stated by the legends.

What you've is taken two statements which say different things and taken them to be saying the same thing.

Let's start with Oldtown and the seat of the high septons. For one the Starry Sept wasn't even around when the first High Speton was chosen and this would have been many generations after the beginning of the Andal Invasion to start with. The next sections you don't quotes notes that oldtown became the unquestioned centre of the faith in the cneturies that followed. Also the sources of your quote is Pate a novice of the citadel of dubious capabilities who may not actually know how long the Starry Sept was the home of the high septon or he may simply be paraphrasing the exact amount of time which is longer but he says a thousand years because it sounds good.

The stuff with the glass candles would place their arrival around 1100 BAC which based on your final estimate would mean they arrived before the Andal invasion.

As for the Arryn issue just because the crown is said to have been worn for a thousand years doesn't mean it is the only crown they've ever worn. It seems quite reasonable to me that the Arryns could have had two or three different crowns in the past with the older ones being lost or destroyed. The original could easily have been lost when King Roland II attacked the Riverlands and meet his end to an axe wielded by the Hammer of Justice.

The stuff with the Blackwoods is only relative to the Andal invasion so not really relevant to everything else.

A counter point to your timeline is the number of Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch of which there have supposedly been 998 including Jon Snow. Given that to elect a Lord Commander the order needs to gather for a vote and elect a candidate by a two thirds majority you can't have multiple being selected and dying in the same battle or perhaps even the same war. Given that several whose rule we know lasted far longer than the two year or so average we'd need for your numbers to be right (the night's watch was founded at the end of the Long night we must assume) including Osric Stark who was leader for sixty years, Byrnden Rivers who led them for thirteen years, Jeor Mormont for ten or eleven and the Night King who led them for at least thirteen years and probably much longer. Given that Sam can find lists containing hundreds of lord Commanders you have to push the Long Night back quite a bit further to fit all of them in.

Also while in ASOIAF some legends are indeed true such as the others that doesn't mean all of them are accurate tales of the distant past.

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1 hour ago, Thandros said:

One Jenny only claimed she was a child of the forest not that anyone actually thought that. Jenny's mental state is hard to grasp so she is probably wrong about. We actually meet this supposed COTF. They're the ghost of high heart and she has some odd appearances she doesn't look like a COTF so scratch that one.

As for Leaf walking the lands of men can mean a lot of things. Given that common is reasonably widely spoken among the lands beyond the wall their might even have been significant need for her to even cross the wall. Also she said she did it to watch and listen and learn. None of that means anyone saw her. The fact her heart was weary could easily be that she'd been alone for so long that she wanted to go home and meet someone to talk to. Just because she took the time to go into the lands of men doesn't mean anyone saw or her and if they did. Would anyone else believe it to be anything but the rambling of a madman.

It's said by Maester Kennet in WOIAF that the first men and early Andals didn't build round towers when noting the age of the first keep. Perhaps some of the first men did build stone castles with square towers but not round ones. If there isn't any evidence of the early andals or first men building round towers then any castles with round towers must either post date the Andal arrival by some time or had access to far superior stone building techniques than the early Andals. Winterfell's inner walls are noted to be at least two thousand years old and the outer walls somewhere over a thousand years. the first keep is older than both so must be closer to three thousand years old or so which is long after the Andal invasion if you place it out at four thousand years before Aegon's conquest.

What you've is taken two statements which say different things and taken them to be saying the same thing.

Let's start with Oldtown and the seat of the high septons. For one the Starry Sept wasn't even around when the first High Speton was chosen and this would have been many generations after the beginning of the Andal Invasion to start with. The next sections you don't quotes notes that oldtown became the unquestioned centre of the faith in the cneturies that followed. Also the sources of your quote is Pate a novice of the citadel of dubious capabilities who may not actually know how long the Starry Sept was the home of the high septon or he may simply be paraphrasing the exact amount of time which is longer but he says a thousand years because it sounds good.

The stuff with the glass candles would place their arrival around 1100 BAC which based on your final estimate would mean they arrived before the Andal invasion.

As for the Arryn issue just because the crown is said to have been worn for a thousand years doesn't mean it is the only crown they've ever worn. It seems quite reasonable to me that the Arryns could have had two or three different crowns in the past with the older ones being lost or destroyed. The original could easily have been lost when King Roland II attacked the Riverlands and meet his end to an axe wielded by the Hammer of Justice.

The stuff with the Blackwoods is only relative to the Andal invasion so not really relevant to everything else.

A counter point to your timeline is the number of Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch of which there have supposedly been 998 including Jon Snow. Given that to elect a Lord Commander the order needs to gather for a vote and elect a candidate by a two thirds majority you can't have multiple being selected and dying in the same battle or perhaps even the same war. Given that several whose rule we know lasted far longer than the two year or so average we'd need for your numbers to be right (the night's watch was founded at the end of the Long night we must assume) including Osric Stark who was leader for sixty years, Byrnden Rivers who led them for thirteen years, Jeor Mormont for ten or eleven and the Night King who led them for at least thirteen years and probably much longer. Given that Sam can find lists containing hundreds of lord Commanders you have to push the Long Night back quite a bit further to fit all of them in.

Also while in ASOIAF some legends are indeed true such as the others that doesn't mean all of them are accurate tales of the distant past.

Sure, that's about all I can say to your analysis and opinion. As none of this is the subject of the post im not going to continue to this further.

 

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A few obscure factoids:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

Awkwardly, Jon took the sword in hand. His left hand; his bandaged right was still too raw and clumsy. Carefully he pulled it from its scabbard and raised it level with his eyes.

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf's head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes

The word is derived from Latin “granatum” which means seed, and is called so because of the gemstone’s resemblance to the beautifully red seeds of the pomegranate.

The Greeks were familiar with the fruit far before it was introduced to Rome via Carthage, and it figures in multiple myths and artworks.[61] In Ancient Greek mythology, the pomegranate was known as the "fruit of the dead", and believed to have sprung from the blood of Adonis.[60][62]

Pomegranate - Wikipedia

Adonis:

- a beautiful youth loved by both Aphrodite and Persephone. He was killed by a boar, but Zeus decreed that he should spend the winter of each year in the underworld with Persephone and the summer months with Aphrodite.

Robert Baratheon, your tall, dark and handsome type:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together

 

 

Edited by LynnS
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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

A few obscure factoids:

The word is derived from Latin “granatum” which means seed, and is called so because of the gemstone’s resemblance to the beautifully red seeds of the pomegranate.

The Greeks were familiar with the fruit far before it was introduced to Rome via Carthage, and it figures in multiple myths and artworks.[61] In Ancient Greek mythology, the pomegranate was known as the "fruit of the dead", and believed to have sprung from the blood of Adonis.[60][62]

Pomegranate - Wikipedia

Adonis:

- a beautiful youth loved by both Aphrodite and Persephone. He was killed by a boar, but Zeus decreed that he should spend the winter of each year in the underworld with Persephone and the summer months with Aphrodite.

Robert Baratheon, your tall, dark and handsome type:

 

Indeed. Zeus is also a fertility god with many children. One of which is mixed up with the Lucifer/Christ figure. That of Apollo/Balder. The God of Light and Music. It is very in keeping with the Starks icy crypt like identity for pomegranates and their seeds to be associated with the dead.

York from which Stark is partially derived (Lancaster's vs Yorks and the War of the Roses) means "Boar town"

 
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As York was a town in Roman times, its Celtic name is recorded in Roman sources (as Eboracum and Eburacum); after 400, Angles took over the area and adapted the name by folk etymology to Old English Eoforwīc or Eoforīc, which means "wild-boar town" or "rich in wild-boar".

 

 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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37 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Indeed. Zeus is also a fertility god with many children. One of which is mixed up with the Lucifer/Christ figure. That of Apollo/Balder. The God of Light and Music. It is very in keeping with the Starks icy crypt like identity for pomegranates and their seeds to be associated with the dead.

LOL! You missed the main point....

Gemstones and fruit - pomegranates, mentioned numerous time, a fruit that produces many seeds.  Garnate itself means seed named after the seeds of the pomegranate.

- the pomegranate was known as the "fruit of the dead", and believed to have sprung from the blood of Adonis.  Jon Snow is the fruit of the dead sprung from the blood of Adonis - is the blood of Adonis, a handsome youth who was killed by a boar.

Robert is the tall, dark and handsome youth (Adonis figure) who looks like a god and was killed by a boar..

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together

 

I'm just showing you what I found under the carpet.  :D

 

Edited by LynnS
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7 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

GRRM must be laughing behind our backs with all the mysteries he has laid before us. especially probably the simplest of them! he'd have a good time thinking of RLJ when fans have been thinking of another RLJ for 20 years...  damn that man ! 

He's a clever bastage! Damn his bullstein!:rofl:

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12 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL! You missed the main point....

Gemstones and fruit - pomegranates, mentioned numerous time, a fruit that produces many seeds.  Garnate itself means seed named after the seeds of the pomegranate.

- the pomegranate was known as the "fruit of the dead", and believed to have sprung from the blood of Adonis.  Jon Snow is the fruit of the dead sprung from the blood of Adonis - is the blood of Adonis, a handsome youth who was killed by a boar.

Robert is the tall, dark and handsome youth (Adonis figure) who looks like a god and was killed by a boar..

I'm just showing you what I found under the carpet.  :D

 

Oh I caught your point lol but your talking about two houses born of the Horned God Garth the Green. 

 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Ned Stark laid his head back against the damp stone wall and closed his eyes. His leg was throbbing. "The king's wine … did you question Lancel?"
"Oh, indeed. Cersei gave him the wineskins, and told him it was Robert's favorite vintage." The eunuch shrugged. "A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray … the forest is the abbatoir of the gods. It was not wine that killed the king. It was your mercy."
Ned had feared as much. "Gods forgive me."

 

 

Your missing my point, Stark's are the Boar that killed Robert Baratheon (who took most after Garths identity as the Horned God). The Strong Seed born of the pomegranate and its seeds of death. 

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As York was a town in Roman times, its Celtic name is recorded in Roman sources (as Eboracum and Eburacum); after 400, Angles took over the area and adapted the name by folk etymology to Old English Eoforwīc or Eoforīc, which means "wild-boar town" or "rich in wild-boar".

 

 

Lancasters were so named for the River Lhun (Lann the Clever). Its likely the Red Fork River used to empty out near Casterly Rock as we're told the river has changed courses and no longer runs by the Inn that used to look out over the River.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Red_Fork

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

It took Ned a moment to comprehend her words, but when the understanding came, the darkness left his eyes. "Robert is coming here?" When she nodded, a smile broke across his face.
Catelyn wished she could share his joy. But she had heard the talk in the yards; a direwolf dead in the snow, a broken antler in its throat. Dread coiled within her like a snake, but she forced herself to smile at this man she loved, this man who put no faith in signs. "I knew that would please you," she said. "We should send word to your brother on the Wall."

 

 

Starks vs Baratheon's. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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