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Andals, Glass Candles, Iron Born and Valyrians.


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Lets reconsider some of what we are told about the histories and the events of Westeros.  As I see many who still believe the Andals to not be connected with the Long Night.

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A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

“Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

Lets consider this.


 
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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown

When the Andals came, the Hightowers were amongst the first lords of Westeros to welcome them. "Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride. His grandson Lord Damon (the Devout) was the first to accept the Faith. To honor the new gods, he built the first sept in Oldtown and six more elsewhere in his realm. When he died prematurely of a bad belly, Septon Robeson became regent for his newborn son, ruling Oldtown in all but name for the next twenty years and ultimately becoming the first High Septon. The boy he raised and trained, Lord Triston Hightower, raised the Starry Sept in his honor after his passing.

 

 

 

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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

 

 

 

The Glass Candles came to Old Town when the Andals had invaded most of Westeros 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest

The two queens smiled at one another and exchanged courtesies instead. Then Lady Sharra sent for the three crowns (her own regent's coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown of Mountain and Vale that the Arryn kings had worn for a thousand years), and surrendered them to Queen Visenya, along with the swords of her garrison. And it was said afterward that the little king flew thrice about the summit of the Giant's Lance and landed to find himself a little lord. Thus did Visenya Targaryen bring the Vale of Arryn into her brother's realm.

 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale: House Arryn

The true tale of House Arryn contains neither giants nor griffins nor huge falcons, yet from the day Ser Artys first donned the Falcon Crown to the present, they have rightly held a storied place in the history of the Seven Kingdoms. 

 

 

 

The Arryns have only been ruling for about 1000 years before Aegon conquered.

 
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A Dance with Dragons - Jaime I

"Five hundred years before the Andals. A thousand, if the True History is to be believed. Only no one knows when the Andals crossed the narrow sea. The True History says four thousand years have passed since then, but some maesters claim that it was only two. Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend."

 

 

 

The Blackwoods coming south after the Starks booted them out.

 
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The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter
Even this did not give Winterfell dominion over all the North. Many other petty kings remained, ruling over realms great and small, and it would require thousands of years and many more wars before the last of them was conquered. Yet one by one, the Starks subdued them all, and during these struggles, many proud houses and ancient lines were extinguished forever.
Amongst the houses reduced from royals to vassals we can count the Flints of Breakstone Hill, the Slates of Blackpool, the Umbers of Last Hearth, the Lockes of Oldcastle, the Glovers of Deepwood Motte, the Fishers of the Stony Shore, the Ryders of the Rills...and mayhaps even the Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter (certain runic records support this claim, if Maester Barneby's translations can be trusted).

 

 

 

 
 
Meaning the Starks and the Long Night happened roughly 1500-2000 years before Aegon Conquered. With the Andals making early invasions that broke the Pact, and ending their invasions within  500-1000 years.
 
Its pretty implied that the Andals were around during the Age of Heroes as stated by the legends.
 
So lets compare some other key events in Westeros. Like the War Across the Waters.
 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale

How far these tales can be trusted is uncertain, but it is worth noting that these atrocities, whilst oft mentioned in accounts of the war written by men from the Vale, go largely unmentioned in Northern chronicles. It cannot be denied, however, that the rule of the Northmen was onerous enough to the Sistermen for them to send their surviving lords scurrying to the Eyrie to plead for help from the King of Mountain and Vale.
This help King Mathos Arryn, Second of His Name, was pleased to provide, upon the condition that the Sistermen agreed to do fealty to him and his descendants thereafter, and acknowledge the right of the Eyrie to rule over them. When his lady wife questioned the wisdom of involving the Vale in this War Across the Water, His Grace famously replied that he would sooner have a pirate than a wolf for his neighbor. The king set sail for Sisterton with a hundred warships.
He never returned, but his sons carried on the war after him. For a thousand years, Winterfell and the Eyrie contested for the rule of the Three Sisters. The Worthless War, some dubbed it. Time and time again the fighting seemed at an end, only to flare up once more a generation later. The islands changed hands more than a dozen times. Thrice the Northmen landed on the Fingers. The Arryns sent a fleet up the White Knife to burn the Wolf's Den, and the Starks replied by attacking Gulltown and burning hundreds of ships in their wroth when the city walls proved too strong for them.
In the end the Arryns emerged victorious, and the Three Sisters have remained part of the Vale ever since, save for the brief reign of Queen Marla Sunderland in the immediate aftermath of Aegon's Conquest; she was deposed at the sight of the approaching Braavosi fleet that the Northmen had hired at King Aegon's command. Her brother swore homage to the Targaryens, and she herself ended her days as a silent sister.

 

 
So the War lasted 1000 years before Aegon's Conquest.

 

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The exact line of succession is as yet unknown.

 

 

With maybe 500 to 1000 years of rulers before Mathos II Arryn. (Being generous based on the list)

 

This does not conflict with the Andals first invading 2000 to 1500 years ago, with the securing Westeros by 1000 years before Aegon Conquered.

 

So lets consider one of the most problematic people and events, Qhored Hoare.

 

 

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The exact number of high kings or driftwood kings chosen by the kingsmoot is unknown and their line of succession is rife with contradictions.[3]

Known Iron Kings/Kings of the Iron Islands

Urron Redhand made the kingship hereditary and took the simpler title of King of the Iron Islands or Iron King.

 

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The list tend to place Qhored before the rule of the Grey Iron's.

 

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King Rodrik Stark is said to have won the island in a wrestling match and granted it to House Mormont,[11] although some scholars are skeptical of the story.[6] This presumably occurred in the century after Gerold LannisterKing of the Rock, raided the Iron Islands, when weaker driftwood kings lost most ironborn possessions along western Westeros.[12]

 

 

 

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History

After the death of the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy, King Rodrik is claimed to have won Bear Island from the ironborn and granted the island to House Mormont.[1][2] The histories of the north claim that Rodrik won Bear Island back from the ironborn in a wrestling match. Some maesters believe there is truth to this tale, for the driftwood kings were often moved to prove their prowess and right to their crown with feats of strength. Other scholars question the tale and suggest that Rodrik had won the island back with words.[3]

After his death, Rodrik's sons and grandsons battled the ironborn for Cape Kraken, though the resulting battles were less decisive.[2]

 

 

 

How likely is Qhored before the Andals? Using the Lannisters as a base?

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    • Lann the Clever, legendary founding ancestor of House Lannister during the Age of Heroes. Posthumously considered King of the Rock.[1]
    • King Loreon Lannister, "the Lion", the first true known Lannister king.[1]
    • King Tybolt Lannister, "the Thunderbolt", who made sure that the first Andal warlords in the westerlands met a bloody end.[1]

     

 

When the 3rd listed Lannister King is already dealing with Andals. Meaning even if Qhored is in the time of Gerold Lannister, its still after the Andals invaded. 

 

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Harmund I Hoare, known as Harmund the Host, was a King of the Iron Islands from House Hoare. The Hoare kings of his era were opposed by the priests of the Drowned God because of their support for the Faith of the Seven, discouraging of reaving, and promotion of trade.[1]

History

Harmund I was the first literate iron king and a man fond of books. From his seat on Great Wyk he welcomed travelers and merchants to the Iron Islands. He also protected septons and septas of the Faith.[1]

 

 

 

Lets also consider that it wasn't till Harmund I, did any Iron born even become Literate. Making any before him and their dating not reliable.

 

 

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Qhored I Hoare, known as Qhored the Cruel,[1], was one of the greatest High Kings of the Iron Islands. While he is usually associated with House Hoare, some accounts state he was actually of House Greyiron or House Blacktyde.[1]

History

The young Qhored sacked Oldtown, taking thousands of women as captives.[1] When he was thirty, Qhored defeated King Bernarr II Justman and took his three sons as hostages. Three years later he murdered the boys in the Bloody Keep of Pyke, crushed Bernarr's vengeful army, and drowned the river king as a sacrifice to the Drowned God, putting an end to House Justman.[2][1]

 

 

 

Qhored though is stated to have ended House Justman who had formed after the Andal Invasion.

 

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House Justman was a noble house from the riverlands who ruled as Kings of the Trident (or Kings of the Rivers and the Hills). According to semi-canon sources they blazoned their arms with golden scales on white, a double tressure blue.[1]

History

House Justman was founded after the Andal invasion by Benedict Rivers, a bastard from Houses Blackwood and Bracken. Over a period of thirty years Benedict managed to defeat the petty kings of the Trident, after which he crowned himself. As he was a wise king who came to be known as Benedict the Just, his house became known as House Justman. King Benedict I Justman extended his domains to Maidenpool and the Neck, while his son Benedict II acquired Duskendale, Rosby, and the mouth of the Blackwater Rush.[2]

The 1000 years of Grey Iron rule, is either not as long as they say since they are illiterate any ways, or it was 1000 years of Grey Iron rule from the time the Andals first arrived to when the Andals hit the Iron Islands. Either way, it does not conflict with Qhored being during the Andal times and after Grey Iron 1000 year rule.

The Fact that there are alot of kings before House GreyIron would back up the Idea that House Hightower were sea faring people akin to the Iron Born and arriving around the same time. As Hightowers predate the first men.

 

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Urron Greyiron, known as Urron Redhand and Urron of Orkmont, was a member of House Greyiron. He was the first King of the Iron Islands to make the throne hereditary, five thousand years before the War of the Five Kings.[1]

History

Urron was the salt king of Orkmont during the rule of his great-uncle, Urragon IV Greyiron, who had assumed the title High King of the Iron Islands without being chosen in a kingsmoot. It was the dying Urragon's wish for Urron to succeed him, but the priests of the Drowned God were determined not to lose the power of kingmaking for a third time after Urragon's assumption of the throne and, before that, Torgon Greyiron's usurpation from Urrathon IV Goodbrother.

Urron put an end to the institution of kingsmoot when he descended with his axemen on Nagga's Hill on Old Wyk, slaying all captains, the thirteen salt and rock kings, and half a hundred priests and prophets assembled for the choosing. Urron made the high kingship hereditary.[4] Calling himself simply King of the Iron Islands, Urron had his crown be made of black iron instead of the traditional driftwood.[5]

During Urron's reign of twenty-two years,[3] the rulers of the various Iron Islands were reduced to lords, and several ancient lines that refused to bend the knee were extinguished.[5] Along with the kingsmoot, Galon Whitestaff's decree against ironborn making war upon each other ended. Urron Redhand and his descendants had to deal with half a dozen major rebellions and at least two major thrall uprisings.[5] House Greyiron is said to have ruled the islands for a thousand years, until the coming of the Andals.[4]

 

 

So shortly after the Andals hit the Iron Islands, Aegon came and invaded as there are not many Hoare Kings till Aegon came. 

 

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The young Qhored sacked Oldtown, taking thousands of women as captives.[1] When he was thirty, Qhored defeated King Bernarr II Justman and took his three sons as hostages. Three years later he murdered the boys in the Bloody Keep of Pyke, crushed Bernarr's vengeful army, and drowned the river king as a sacrifice to the Drowned God, putting an end to House Justman.[2][1]

This is actually important, as the Banner's of House Hoare show them to rule the Maesters as indicated by the Raven on their sigil. Along with the Arbor, and Bear Island. Suggesting that Harren the Black's family was controlling the Maesters and Old Town. 

 

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History

Harrenhal

Harren was born to House Hoare, the ruling house of the Iron Islands. He was the grandson of King Harwyn Hardhand, who extended the ironborn rule over the riverlands from the Neck to the Blackwater Rush, and the son of King Halleck Hoare. Harren's brother rose to become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.[1]

 

 

Even controlling so far as the Wall and the Night's Watch.

Then Aegon invades and changes everything. Aegon, who has a sept on Dragons Stone. Aegon who visits Old Town before conquering Westeros. Old Town, which is held by House Hoare and does not take the field against Aegon the Conqueror.

Im guessing the Hightowers invited Aegon's invasion to fend off the Iron Born threat. Something that is now growing in the absence of any Targaryens. 

 

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The Isle of Ravens is an isle located inside the Citadel in Oldtown. A weathered wooden drawbridge links the isle to the bank of the Honeywine river.

The Ravenry, the oldest building in the Citadel, is a castle on the isle.[1] As the name suggests, ravens are housed there. There are separate rookeries, the white in the west tower and the black in the north tower, as the two colors of ravens quarrel.

History

In the Age of Heroes the Ravenry was supposedly the stronghold of a pirate lord who sat there robbing ships as they came down the Honeywine.[1] The drawbridge has not been raised in living memory.[1]

 

 

 

With One Eye Euron seeking to hit Old Town and having had a Glass Candle

 

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.
"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"
"We would have no more need of ravens."

 

 
 
Opposition to Bloodraven, or ally?

 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn XI

Catelyn knelt and took her father's hand in hers. It was a big hand, but fleshless now, the bones moving loosely under the skin, all the strength gone from it. "You should have told me," she said. "A rider, a raven …"
"Riders are taken, questioned," he answered. "Ravens are brought down …" A spasm of pain took him, and his fingers clutched hers hard. "The crabs are in my belly … pinching, always pinching. Day and night. They have fierce claws, the crabs. Maester Vyman makes me dreamwine, milk of the poppy … I sleep a lot … but I wanted to be awake to see you, when you came. I was afraid … when the Lannisters took your brother, the camps all around us … I was afraid I would go, before I could see you again … I was afraid …"

 

 
 
The Crabs

 

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A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

"We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot." The Damphair stood. "No godless man—"
"—may sit the Seastone Chair, aye." Euron glanced about the tent. "As it happens I have oft sat upon the Seastone Chair of late. It raises no objections." His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."

 

 
 
Considering the time line and taking things into account, Imo, a more interesting picture is painted involving the Iron Born that spans from their Mythic Grey King, to Qhored Hoare holding Old Town, to Harren the Black and his brother holding most of Westeros till Aegon arrived.
 
Was House Hoare preparring against the Dragons? Valyrian steel was making its way into Westeros except for to the Iron Born, who have to take one from House Rein. (Red Rein)
 
Did the Hightowers welcome the Dragons? Only to worry they might have ended them in the Dance of the Dragons? What is Lord Leyton doing up in his Hightower. Talking to Euron via Glass Candles? Watching him? 

 

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A Feast for Crows - Prologue

A hush fell over the torchlit terrace. Armen sighed and shook his head. Mollander began to laugh. The Sphinx studied Leo with his big black eyes. Roone looked lost.
Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

 

 
 
Reconsidering the timeline, the Andal Invasion during the Age of Heroes, Iron Born exansion to the Wall and Old Town, and Glass Candles, along with Valyrians. What do you think is going on?
 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals

The clans of the Mountains of the Moon are clearly descendants of the First Men who did not bend the knee to the Andals and so were driven into the mountains. Furthermore, there are similarities in their customs to the customs of the wildlings beyond the Wall—such as bride-stealing, a stubborn desire to rule themselves, and the like—and the wildlings are indisputably descended from the First Men.
As with the First Men before them, the Andals proved bitter enemies to the remaining children. To their eyes, the children worshipped strange gods and had strange customs, and so the Andals drove them out of all the deep woods the Pact had once given them. Weakened and grown insular over the years, the children lacked whatever advantages they had once had over the First Men. And what the First Men could never succeed in doing—eradicating the children entirely—the Andals managed to achieve in short order. Some few children may have fled to the Neck, where there was safety amidst the bogs and crannogs, but if they did, no trace of them remains. It is possible that a few survived on the Isle of Faces, as some have written, under the protection of the green men, whom the Andals never succeeded in destroying. But again, no definitive proof has ever been found.

 

 
 
 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale

Moreover, the Vale and its surrounding peaks were divided into a score of petty kingdoms when the first Andals began wading ashore, with the seven-pointed star painted (or carved, in some cases) on their chests. Riven by ancient enmities, the kings of the First Men did not unite against the invaders when first they appeared but rather made pacts and alliances with them, seeking to use the newcomers in their wars against one another. (A familiar folly that was to be repeated time and time again as the Andals spread out across Westeros).

 

 
  What was the Pact?

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Coming of First Men

Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact. Giving up all the lands of Westeros save for the deep forests, the children won from the First Men the promise that they would no longer cut down the weirwoods. All the weirwoods of the isle on which the Pact was forged were then carved with faces so that the gods could witness the Pact, and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle.

 

 

 

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I think you touch on some interesting things but make a bunch of leaps I don’t follow…

When you hear “1000 years” I think that’s like the Bible saying “40 year”, it just means a long time, not a literal number.

I don’t think you can assume all the mentions of 1000 years mean exactly the same thing or even that the old stories from that long ago are all accurate. Or that multiple men can’t share the same name.

I do not believe the Andal invasion could possibly have happened during the age of heroes or before the Long Night (which presumably was the end of the age of heroes, given the “last hero”).

That said, I do think there are some intentional discrepancies which point to a group of peoples other than the First Men, who had seafaring, ironworking, and advanced construction before the Andal invasion.

Everything we have learned points to the Andals being driven from Essos by the rise of Valyria.

Edited by Mourning Star
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1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I think you touch on some interesting things but make a bunch of leaps I don’t follow…

When you hear “1000 years” I think that’s like the Bible saying “40 year”, it just means a long time, not a literal number.

I don’t think you can assume all the mentions of 1000 years mean exactly the same thing or even that the old stories from that long ago are all accurate. Or that multiple men can’t share the same name.

I do not believe the Andal invasion could possibly have happened during the age of heroes or before the Long Night (which presumably was the end of the age of heroes, given the “last hero”).

That said, I do think there are some intentional discrepancies which point to a group of peoples other than the First Men, who had seafaring, ironworking, and advanced construction before the Andal invasion.

Everything we have learned points to the Andals being driven from Essos by the rise of Valyria

These are all good points. I think the best evidence that may suggest otherwise is that Hugor of the Hill is said to possibly be a variant of Hukko, and thus fits in with a larger spectrum of variations on the Azor Ahai character: Azor Ahai --> Huzhor Amai --> Hukko --> Hugor of the Hill --> Hyrkoon the Hero. Moreover, Hukko's slaying of the swan maidens sounds pretty similar to the fisher queens of Huzor Amai. 

Now, it could be that the Andals merely took this ancient mythic history and mutated it for their own ends. Like Hitler's silly claim that native Germans descended from the ancient "aryans," who were Indo-Iranian.

Or, it could be an indication that the Andals do have a deeper history than we tend to think. One that is connected to real magic, unlike the present-day Faith of the Seven.

 

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2 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

These are all good points. I think the best evidence that may suggest otherwise is that Hugor of the Hill is said to possibly be a variant of Hukko, and thus fits in with a larger spectrum of variations on the Azor Ahai character: Azor Ahai --> Huzhor Amai --> Hukko --> Hugor of the Hill --> Hyrkoon the Hero. Moreover, Hukko's slaying of the swan maidens sounds pretty similar to the fisher queens of Huzor Amai. 

Now, it could be that the Andals merely took this ancient mythic history and mutated it for their own ends. Like Hitler's silly claim that native Germans descended from the ancient "aryans," who were Indo-Iranian.

Or, it could be an indication that the Andals do have a deeper history than we tend to think. One that is connected to real magic, unlike the present-day Faith of the Seven.

 

I think there is a case to be made not only for Hugor “of the hill” (hollow hill?) being a reflection of ancient myth, but the seven (seven faces of one godhood) also being reflections of an ancient religion. One based on the worship of trees with faces that house ancestors… aka a time when there were Weirwoods in Essos (where now they seem only to be found around the house of the Undying).

I think there may also be a case for the “last hero” and his companions being from Essos. But even if this included Hugor of the Hill, I suspect it predates the larger Andal Invasion of Westeros.

Edit: And since you mention the fisher queens, I feel compelled to point out what seems an obvious reference to the Arthurian Grail myth and the fisher king. It’s maybe a little out there, but I’ve wondered if maybe there is a good comparison to be made between the holy grail and the horn of winter… then again one might also make the case for a parallel to Joshua, and the destruction of the Walls of Jericho (Jorramun?) where they marched around the walls once a day for six days, and seven times on the seventh day, with the arc of the covenant (the pact?) blowing horns. Anyway, good stuff!

Edited by Mourning Star
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18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
So the War lasted 1000 years before Aegon's Conquest.

 

The thing is the Wolf's den is the name for White Harbour before the Manderlys arrived to found White harbour a thousand years before Aegon's conquest. This means at the very least the attack on the Wolf's den occurred over a thousand years before Aegon's conquest and the king's who launched the attack are not the original king who began the war at the very least it occurred a generation or more after the start of the war. Given that the Lord of Sweet sister believes the Rape of the Three Sisters occurred two thousand years ago according to the Maesters I'm willing to go along with that date as a reasonable one.

A lot of the rest of the early I've already contested so let's get to the meat.

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So lets consider one of the most problematic people and events, Qhored Hoare.

The list tend to place Qhored before the rule of the Grey Iron's.

How likely is Qhored before the Andals? Using the Lannisters as a base?

When the 3rd listed Lannister King is already dealing with Andals. Meaning even if Qhored is in the time of Gerold Lannister, its still after the Andals invaded. 

Lets also consider that it wasn't till Harmund I, did any Iron born even become Literate. Making any before him and their dating not reliable.

Qhored though is stated to have ended House Justman who had formed after the Andal Invasion.

The 1000 years of Grey Iron rule, is either not as long as they say since they are illiterate any ways, or it was 1000 years of Grey Iron rule from the time the Andals first arrived to when the Andals hit the Iron Islands. Either way, it does not conflict with Qhored being during the Andal times and after Grey Iron 1000 year rule.

The Fact that there are alot of kings before House GreyIron would back up the Idea that House Hightower were sea faring people akin to the Iron Born and arriving around the same time. As Hightowers predate the first men.

So shortly after the Andals hit the Iron Islands, Aegon came and invaded as there are not many Hoare Kings till Aegon came. 

This is actually important, as the Banner's of House Hoare show them to rule the Maesters as indicated by the Raven on their sigil. Along with the Arbor, and Bear Island. Suggesting that Harren the Black's family was controlling the Maesters and Old Town.

Even controlling so far as the Wall and the Night's Watch.

Then Aegon invades and changes everything. Aegon, who has a sept on Dragons Stone. Aegon who visits Old Town before conquering Westeros. Old Town, which is held by House Hoare and does not take the field against Aegon the Conqueror.

Im guessing the Hightowers invited Aegon's invasion to fend off the Iron Born threat. Something that is now growing in the absence of any Targaryens. 

With One Eye Euron seeking to hit Old Town and having had a Glass Candle

Opposition to Bloodraven, or ally?
 
The Crabs
 
Considering the time line and taking things into account, Imo, a more interesting picture is painted involving the Iron Born that spans from their Mythic Grey King, to Qhored Hoare holding Old Town, to Harren the Black and his brother holding most of Westeros till Aegon arrived.
 
Was House Hoare preparring against the Dragons? Valyrian steel was making its way into Westeros except for to the Iron Born, who have to take one from House Rein. (Red Rein)
 
Did the Hightowers welcome the Dragons? Only to worry they might have ended them in the Dance of the Dragons? What is Lord Leyton doing up in his Hightower. Talking to Euron via Glass Candles? Watching him? 
 
Reconsidering the timeline, the Andal Invasion during the Age of Heroes, Iron Born exansion to the Wall and Old Town, and Glass Candles, along with Valyrians. What do you think is going on?

What I think is going on is massive over reach by you based on sources from different periods into some massive Ironborn empire which never really existed. The Hoare sigil marks historical conquests. By the time the Maesters really come into existence they've long lost Oldtown and other areas and it for example doesn't mentioned the greatest Hoare conquest of all the Riverlands. It's likely the sigil is a later post Andal creation which reflects the historical might of the Hoares. As for the issues with Qhored Hoare the obvious answer is. There is more than one Qhored Hoare and our sources simply don't distinguish between them. One who was a great king during the olden early days of the Ironborn before the coming of the Andals who conquered a vast empire and a second later one after the Hoares became hereditary kings of the Iron Islands who fought and defeated the Justman dynasty. Given that Qhored Hoare was the greatest king of the Ironborn in their early days then is makes sense that they would name some of their sons after him. We see it everywhere else after all.

The Hoares at Aegon's conquest ruled the Iron Islands and the Riverlands and nowhere else. If they did we would have seen references in the actual text to Ironborn control of these areas. The Night's Watch was simply led by his brother at the time he had no control or influence over them let alone the lands in between.

The Crabs are references to Hoster having cancer which I believe the ancient Greeks described as crabs pinching the stomach or something like that. Not something to do with Ironborn or some other wacky conspiracy.

What do I think is going on? Once again you worked up a crazy theory in your head from a bunch of half gathered references from different points with little connection and tried to call it some idea of Ironborn domination of Westeros only stopped by the arrival of Aegon the Conquerer.

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Hugor of the Hill. What hill? The Andals are not really from Essos, at least not the ones actually mentioned in history. Knights, tourneys, the faith of the Seven, all of that emerged in Westeros over time.

Hugor of the Hill = Casterly Rock.

Uthor of the Hightower is Hugor of the Hill or related.

The first Hightower was built of timber. It was probably made of the cut down wood of High Heart.

Hightower was torn down to make 44 ships of weirwood. The 44 masts on Nagga's Hill are from those ships.

Hugor had 44 mighty sons, who wore plates of iron, and who would conquer far away lands. They conquered the iron islands and more.

Uthor of Hightower married Maris the Maid, but Argoth Stoneskin had crowned her at the first tourney, and Argoth left and "roared outside the walls of Oldtown". Stoneskin, grey skin, or full plate iron armor?

"King Theon Stark" is said to have defeated the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar in the Battle of the Weeping Water. The King of Winter then sailed across the narrow sea to the coast of Andalos with Argos's body displayed on the prow of his ship like a figurehead. Theon burned a score of Andal villages, killing hundreds and capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept. The king displayed the spiked heads of his victims along his coastline to deter future invaders.

This likely did not take place in Essos, it is probably literally the Three Towers island right outside Oldtown. Agos Sevenstar was probably Argoth Stoneskin, and Theon Stark just went and took revenge on where he came from, outside of Oldtown on Three Towers island.

Azor Ahai

Huzor Amai, the Amazing

Huzor Amazing, or the Great?

The Great Huzor, the Great Hugor, the Great Uthor, the Great Other.

You have the Fisher Queens too

Quote

 

The Fisher Queens were a legendary dynasty that ruled an equally legendary realm, the Realm of the Fisher Queens, in Essos. Their kingdom is said to have covered the lands adjoining the Silver Sea, a great inland sea located in what today is the Dothraki Sea, of which only three great lakes remain. This is one of the first civilizations of which there is any sort of record, even though these records are only legends transmitted through oral tradition, as their supposed existence predates written word.

The Fisher Queens ruled from a floating palace that made its way endlessly around its shores. They were wise and benevolent, and favored of the gods. Kings and lords and wise men sought their floating palace for their counsel. The last of the Fisher Queens gave birth to Huzhor Amai, who would become the ancestor of the Tall Men.

 

Silver Sea, like Greywater. Floating palaces, like Greywater Watch. Favored by the gods. Either they eventually fled to Westeros, or it was always a story set in Westeros. 

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14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You're right. I held a gun to GRRM's head and forced him to type all those words I quoted that you're calling bullshit.

So much evidence to refute your timeline - as I and others have repeatedly done in the past. Where to start? To pick a few random points:

The civilizations of Essos have actual written records that go back to the Long Night, which Westeros does not have. (Mostly because the Long Night preceded the arrival of the Andals, who brought writing to Westeros).

Anyway, those records from the East make it clear that the Valyrian civilization is 5000 years old and only arose AFTER the Long Night.

Old Ghis, however, existed in some fashion before the Long Night, and actually survived it, only to be defeated by a young Valyria in a series of wars 5000 years ago.

The World of Ice and Fire DOES cast doubt on the original dating of the Long Night at 8,000 years ago, and suggests that it was in fact 6,000 years ago. A 2,000 year revision and that curiously also raises its head in the two conflicting historical timelines debated by the Maesters of the Citadel.

It is pretty clear that Martin has sought to crunch the timeline a bit, maybe in a concession to realism, but only by lopping 2,000 years from the original mythical histories. 

So, the Long Night happened 6,000 years ago.

Valyria rose 5,000 years ago

The Andals migrated somewhere between 4,000 and 2,000 years ago (perhaps in a series of increasingly frequent raids and eventually full scale migrations that spanned much of the 4,000 - 2000 years BC timespan.)

The likely Westerosi timeline therefore:

First Men arrive : 10,000 years ago

Long Night : 6,000 years ago

Starks build the Wolf’s Den : ~4000 years ago

First Andals start raiding : ~3,000 years ago

Andals conquer the Vale : ~2500 years ago

War Across the Water starts : ~2000 years ago with the Rape of Sisterton

War Across the Water ends when the Manderlys arrive and build White Harbor, between 900 and 1300 years ago - thereby invalidating the military importance and ongoing cost of subduing the Three Sisters to protect the White Knife from raiders.

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Some good points brought up by a couple people so ill address each in a bit. The most relevant point brought up is that the Maesters do indeed present at least 3 different plausible timelines. So Im not going to crunch my keyboard belittling people who feel the longer dates to be the more accurate dates. Specially when some of these early figures may have indeed lived for 1000 years. (Which is a rough number im sure no one takes quite literal as 1k years)

I tried to use events that I felt helped prove my point about the Andals landing roughly 2300 years ago and finishing their invasion around 1100 years ago. There is more historical accuracy in this dating than the others based on a few concepts. The largest being that the Azor Ahai figure is a Christ like figure, with Christ existing 2000 years ago, and being responsible for multiple faiths like the Roman Catholics and the East Orthodox Catholics represented by the Faith of the Seven and the Church of Starry Wisdom. 

The Morning Star that the Dayne's and their "falling star" legends references is that of Lucifer and Jesus who are both referred to as the "Morning Star". With Azor Ahai sharing the same duality of good and evil. Light and dark.

The Andal Invasion is more reminicent of the Viking Invasions of England that began with the Saxon's who forged the Seven Kingdoms of England (North Umbria, Wessex, Essex, Etc.), and running up to the Norwegian and Danish invasions of the later times, and ending with the Norman Invasion (Which is the Targaryen invasion as represented by the War of the Roses and the Dance of the Dragons). With the Normans being founded by the Viking Rollo. 

Westeros being England after all with the Wall being Hadrans wall which inspired GRRM.

The Dark Age after the Age of Heroes is reminiscent of the Long Night and the Age of Heroes in Asoiaf. The Age of Heroes being when the Trojan war and maid theft happened. The Trojan war happening 1200Bc abouts. Since this is the Middle Ages that Asoiaf takes place in. Then from that time, the Trojan war was about 2000 years earlier when Jesus being 1000 years earlier.

The Vikings are Germanic, and the Germanic Dane tribe traces back to the Lost Tribes of Israel by old myth. This is likely how the Andals and Valyrians are tied together.

This though, is just to explain how the timeline crunch fits reality more around 2000 years. Which would explain the technology progression better too. 

I also used only Westeros and not Essos because records from the East are dubious and Elio and GRRM have even stated as much. The further away it is, the less reliable the tales. Like Roman's hearing legend of China from the few who had been in those times, but knowing not much. (Specially since the Chinese have destroyed their own history making it hard for even modern historians).

To the other points though I will address more in a bit but wont be refuting too much. As we've established, the Maesters have put forward 3 timelines roughly, and not going to blast people for picking one of the three that disagrees with the one I chose. I just think the one around 2k years presents a more probable scenario that seems something we could see play out in the books. As Euron is has taken to calling him self kIng in the North and Iron Isles. The Riverlands and Hightowers are on his list.

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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56 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Some good points brought up by a couple people so ill address each in a bit. The most relevant point brought up is that the Maesters do indeed present at least 3 different plausible timelines. So Im not going to crunch my keyboard belittling people who feel the longer dates to be the more accurate dates. Specially when some of these early figures may have indeed lived for 1000 years. (Which is a rough number im sure no one takes quite literal as 1k years)

I tried to use events that I felt helped prove my point about the Andals landing roughly 2300 years ago and finishing their invasion around 1100 years ago. There is more historical accuracy in this dating than the others based on a few concepts. The largest being that the Azor Ahai figure is a Christ like figure, with Christ existing 2000 years ago, and being responsible for multiple faiths like the Roman Catholics and the East Orthodox Catholics represented by the Faith of the Seven and the Church of Starry Wisdom. 

The Morning Star that the Dayne's and their "falling star" legends references is that of Lucifer and Jesus who are both referred to as the "Morning Star". With Azor Ahai sharing the same duality of good and evil. Light and dark.

The Andal Invasion is more reminicent of the Viking Invasions of England that began with the Saxon's who forged the Seven Kingdoms of England (North Umbria, Wessex, Essex, Etc.), and running up to the Norwegian and Danish invasions of the later times, and ending with the Norman Invasion (Which is the Targaryen invasion as represented by the War of the Roses and the Dance of the Dragons). With the Normans being founded by the Viking Rollo. 

Westeros being England after all with the Wall being Hadrans wall which inspired GRRM.

The Dark Age after the Age of Heroes is reminiscent of the Long Night and the Age of Heroes in Asoiaf. The Age of Heroes being when the Trojan war and maid theft happened. The Trojan war happening 1200Bc abouts. Since this is the Middle Ages that Asoiaf takes place in. Then from that time, the Trojan war was about 2000 years earlier when Jesus being 1000 years earlier.

The Vikings are Germanic, and the Germanic Dane tribe traces back to the Lost Tribes of Israel by old myth. This is likely how the Andals and Valyrians are tied together.

This though, is just to explain how the timeline crunch fits reality more around 2000 years. Which would explain the technology progression better too. 

I also used only Westeros and not Essos because records from the East are dubious and Elio and GRRM have even stated as much. The further away it is, the less reliable the tales. Like Roman's hearing legend of China from the few who had been in those times, but knowing not much. (Specially since the Chinese have destroyed their own history making it hard for even modern historians).

To the other points though I will address more in a bit but wont be refuting too much. As we've established, the Maesters have put forward 3 timelines roughly, and not going to blast people for picking one of the three that disagrees with the one I chose. I just think the one around 2k years presents a more probable scenario that seems something we could see play out in the books. As Euron is has taken to calling him self kIng in the North and Iron Isles. The Riverlands and Hightowers are on his list.

The main issue isn’t your choice of Andal arrival date so much as your dramatic reduction of the pre-Andal time period.

2000 years ago for the Andals can work, roughly, but less than 5000 years ago for the Long Night can not.

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54 minutes ago, Egged said:

Hugor of the Hill. What hill? The Andals are not really from Essos, at least not the ones actually mentioned in history. Knights, tourneys, the faith of the Seven, all of that emerged in Westeros over time.

Hugor of the Hill = Casterly Rock.

Uthor of the Hightower is Hugor of the Hill or related.

The first Hightower was built of timber. It was probably made of the cut down wood of High Heart.

Hightower was torn down to make 44 ships of weirwood. The 44 masts on Nagga's Hill are from those ships.

Hugor had 44 mighty sons, who wore plates of iron, and who would conquer far away lands. They conquered the iron islands and more.

Uthor of Hightower married Maris the Maid, but Argoth Stoneskin had crowned her at the first tourney, and Argoth left and "roared outside the walls of Oldtown". Stoneskin, grey skin, or full plate iron armor?

"King Theon Stark" is said to have defeated the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar in the Battle of the Weeping Water. The King of Winter then sailed across the narrow sea to the coast of Andalos with Argos's body displayed on the prow of his ship like a figurehead. Theon burned a score of Andal villages, killing hundreds and capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept. The king displayed the spiked heads of his victims along his coastline to deter future invaders.

This likely did not take place in Essos, it is probably literally the Three Towers island right outside Oldtown. Agos Sevenstar was probably Argoth Stoneskin, and Theon Stark just went and took revenge on where he came from, outside of Oldtown on Three Towers island.

Azor Ahai

Huzor Amai, the Amazing

Huzor Amazing, or the Great?

The Great Huzor, the Great Hugor, the Great Uthor, the Great Other.

You have the Fisher Queens too

Silver Sea, like Greywater. Floating palaces, like Greywater Watch. Favored by the gods. Either they eventually fled to Westeros, or it was always a story set in Westeros. 

Great idea the andals were always in Westeros. One problem we have at least one account of Andals that you can't exactly disprove because of poor records. Qarlon the Great who led an attack on Norvos and provoked Valyrian retribution. Also if the Andals where never in Essos where does Andalos get it's name from.

It would be a great theory if it held the slightest bit of evidence that would actually allow it to exist.

22 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Some good points brought up by a couple people so ill address each in a bit. The most relevant point brought up is that the Maesters do indeed present at least 3 different plausible timelines. So Im not going to crunch my keyboard belittling people who feel the longer dates to be the more accurate dates. Specially when some of these early figures may have indeed lived for 1000 years. (Which is a rough number im sure no one takes quite literal as 1k years)

I tried to use events that I felt helped prove my point about the Andals landing roughly 2300 years ago and finishing their invasion around 1100 years ago. There is more historical accuracy in this dating than the others based on a few concepts. The largest being that the Azor Ahai figure is a Christ like figure, with Christ existing 2000 years ago, and being responsible for multiple faiths like the Roman Catholics and the East Orthodox Catholics represented by the Faith of the Seven and the Church of Starry Wisdom. 

The Morning Star that the Dayne's and their "falling star" legends references is that of Lucifer and Jesus who are both referred to as the "Morning Star". With Azor Ahai sharing the same duality of good and evil. Light and dark.

The Andal Invasion is more reminicent of the Viking Invasions of England that began with the Saxon's who forged the Seven Kingdoms of England (North Umbria, Wessex, Essex, Etc.), and running up to the Norwegian and Danish invasions of the later times, and ending with the Norman Invasion (Which is the Targaryen invasion as represented by the War of the Roses and the Dance of the Dragons). With the Normans being founded by the Viking Rollo. 

Westeros being England after all with the Wall being Hadrans wall which inspired GRRM.

The Dark Age after the Age of Heroes is reminiscent of the Long Night and the Age of Heroes in Asoiaf. The Age of Heroes being when the Trojan war and maid theft happened. The Trojan war happening 1200Bc abouts. Since this is the Middle Ages that Asoiaf takes place in. Then from that time, the Trojan war was about 2000 years earlier when Jesus being 1000 years earlier.

The Vikings are Germanic, and the Germanic Dane tribe traces back to the Lost Tribes of Israel by old myth. This is likely how the Andals and Valyrians are tied together.

This though, is just to explain how the timeline crunch fits reality more around 2000 years. Which would explain the technology progression better too. 

I also used only Westeros and not Essos because records from the East are dubious and Elio and GRRM have even stated as much. The further away it is, the less reliable the tales. Like Roman's hearing legend of China from the few who had been in those times, but knowing not much. (Specially since the Chinese have destroyed their own history making it hard for even modern historians).

To the other points though I will address more in a bit but wont be refuting too much. As we've established, the Maesters have put forward 3 timelines roughly, and not going to blast people for picking one of the three that disagrees with the one I chose. I just think the one around 2k years presents a more probable scenario that seems something we could see play out in the books. As Euron is has taken to calling him self kIng in the North and Iron Isles. The Riverlands and Hightowers are on his list.

Ok this goes from unsubstantiated theory making to out the window madness. Ok one Azor Ahai and christ have very little in common except for being important figures in religion. Azor Ahai is a warrior hero while Christ very explicitly isn't.

There's a lot of stuff that's very dubious in their including the crazy stupid idea that the Vikings are somehow related to the Lost tribes of Israel. I can't explain how stupid that is.

You mention technological progress as a means to determine your 'timeline' So assuming the conquest correlates to around the norman conquest so 1066 onwards dating back to the beginning of the Iron age puts the date around 2300 BAC or perhaps a bit earlier than that dating in the ancient world is hard. For the first men assuming they have reliable access to both copper and tin we could probably not unreasonably take the date for their arrival back towards maybe 7,000 or 8,000 BAC. Based on the evidence for organised smelting in the real world at lest 6,000 years BCE and maybe even further. Like I said dating anything in the ancient world is very hard.

Your decision to compare the viking invasion to the Andal invasion is curious given both have better comparisons. The Andal invasion is perhaps better compared to the invasions of the sea peoples which played a role in ending the bronze age kingdoms of the near east and could be compared with ideas from Greek myth of the Dorian invasion. The anglo saxon migration and the viking invasions are perhaps better compared with the Stormlander conquest of the river lands (beginning with the arrival of the saxon/stormlanders to aid against domestic enemies and they end up staying) and the Iron Born invasion of the Riverlands.

The long Night/ Trojan war comparison is rubbish. The Trojan war in greek myth was the swan song of the age of heroes, their last great deeds and a plot by Zeus to kill off as many demigods as possible, so it falls better right before the Andal invasion where as the long night falls in the middle of the age of heroes and lacks an obvious historical counterpart (unless you want to start considering flood myths though that may relate to the breaking of the arm of Dorne).

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2 hours ago, Thandros said:

Great idea the andals were always in Westeros. One problem we have at least one account of Andals that you can't exactly disprove because of poor records. Qarlon the Great who led an attack on Norvos and provoked Valyrian retribution. Also if the Andals where never in Essos where does Andalos get it's name from.

It would be a great theory if it held the slightest bit of evidence that would actually allow it to exist.

Ok this goes from unsubstantiated theory making to out the window madness. Ok one Azor Ahai and christ have very little in common except for being important figures in religion. Azor Ahai is a warrior hero while Christ very explicitly isn't.

There's a lot of stuff that's very dubious in their including the crazy stupid idea that the Vikings are somehow related to the Lost tribes of Israel. I can't explain how stupid that is.

You mention technological progress as a means to determine your 'timeline' So assuming the conquest correlates to around the norman conquest so 1066 onwards dating back to the beginning of the Iron age puts the date around 2300 BAC or perhaps a bit earlier than that dating in the ancient world is hard. For the first men assuming they have reliable access to both copper and tin we could probably not unreasonably take the date for their arrival back towards maybe 7,000 or 8,000 BAC. Based on the evidence for organised smelting in the real world at lest 6,000 years BCE and maybe even further. Like I said dating anything in the ancient world is very hard.

Your decision to compare the viking invasion to the Andal invasion is curious given both have better comparisons. The Andal invasion is perhaps better compared to the invasions of the sea peoples which played a role in ending the bronze age kingdoms of the near east and could be compared with ideas from Greek myth of the Dorian invasion. The anglo saxon migration and the viking invasions are perhaps better compared with the Stormlander conquest of the river lands (beginning with the arrival of the saxon/stormlanders to aid against domestic enemies and they end up staying) and the Iron Born invasion of the Riverlands.

The long Night/ Trojan war comparison is rubbish. The Trojan war in greek myth was the swan song of the age of heroes, their last great deeds and a plot by Zeus to kill off as many demigods as possible, so it falls better right before the Andal invasion where as the long night falls in the middle of the age of heroes and lacks an obvious historical counterpart (unless you want to start considering flood myths though that may relate to the breaking of the arm of Dorne).

Gonna hard disagree with your associations here as making no sense at all. The Vikings were the Stormlanders invading the Riverlands? That makes no sense. The Vikings were a sea faring people that came from a different country to the Island of England. The Storm landers invading the Riverlands would be akin to to Essex invading Mercia as both live on the same Island. 

You're apparently unaware of the theories that Jesus was the leader of a rebellious militia group.

Whether you agree with their theories about Jesus, or the Danish assertion of Folk Legend that say's they come from the Tribes of Dan. Is irrelevant to the fact that these things exist, and GRRM is a biggggg fan of history and myst and uses both as inspiration for his books. 

And no, we're not confused on when the Iron Age began or the steel Age. The Iron Age began after the Dark Ages that followed the civilization collapses along the Mediterranean, with history largely picking up again with new kingdoms on the board and old ones gone, like the Myceneans. 

Hard to take the rest serious as you seem to have a select knowledge on history and myth and assert your own feelings to much on the subjects validity instead of excepting that these theories exist whether you agree or not. I don't think the Danish are likely of the tribe of Dan either any more than British Israelism. Yet, they exist and were believed to be history at the time of the medieval age. Kings and queens based their lineages on these claims. With some going back to Cleopatra and some going to the Lost Tribes of Israel. While two from Trojan hero's Aeneas and Brutus. Brutus being the British connection to Troy and where the name Britain comes from that Replaced Albion. So named from a Greek Princess who came to the Island hundreds of years before Troy.

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The main issue isn’t your choice of Andal arrival date so much as your dramatic reduction of the pre-Andal time period.

2000 years ago for the Andals can work, roughly, but less than 5000 years ago for the Long Night can not.

Why do you say that?

If the Iron born had taken Old Town, and the Citadel along with its Maesters and Glass Candles, then they could have altered the records to dissociate them selves all they wanted. Disconnecting them selves as culprits of the Long Night. 

You can't disagree that Euron is doing exactly as the Hoare Kings did and trying to conquer all of Westeros naming him self king of every where he goes (Even if contested). With Dany being one of the few things that can stop him. Which is very much the situation I'm suggesting happened in the past. 

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4 hours ago, Egged said:

Hugor of the Hill. What hill? The Andals are not really from Essos, at least not the ones actually mentioned in history. Knights, tourneys, the faith of the Seven, all of that emerged in Westeros over time.

Hugor of the Hill = Casterly Rock.

Uthor of the Hightower is Hugor of the Hill or related.

The first Hightower was built of timber. It was probably made of the cut down wood of High Heart.

Hightower was torn down to make 44 ships of weirwood. The 44 masts on Nagga's Hill are from those ships.

Hugor had 44 mighty sons, who wore plates of iron, and who would conquer far away lands. They conquered the iron islands and more.

Uthor of Hightower married Maris the Maid, but Argoth Stoneskin had crowned her at the first tourney, and Argoth left and "roared outside the walls of Oldtown". Stoneskin, grey skin, or full plate iron armor?

"King Theon Stark" is said to have defeated the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar in the Battle of the Weeping Water. The King of Winter then sailed across the narrow sea to the coast of Andalos with Argos's body displayed on the prow of his ship like a figurehead. Theon burned a score of Andal villages, killing hundreds and capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept. The king displayed the spiked heads of his victims along his coastline to deter future invaders.

This likely did not take place in Essos, it is probably literally the Three Towers island right outside Oldtown. Agos Sevenstar was probably Argoth Stoneskin, and Theon Stark just went and took revenge on where he came from, outside of Oldtown on Three Towers island.

Azor Ahai

Huzor Amai, the Amazing

Huzor Amazing, or the Great?

The Great Huzor, the Great Hugor, the Great Uthor, the Great Other.

You have the Fisher Queens too

Silver Sea, like Greywater. Floating palaces, like Greywater Watch. Favored by the gods. Either they eventually fled to Westeros, or it was always a story set in Westeros. 

Well an invasion could have happened the other direction. I still feel the Andals came from Essos and are stated as having come from the same general area as the first men. Being possibly one of the three tribes conquered by Huzhor Amai. Suggesting they began around the same time.

Andals are so named for the Vandals and GRRM has already said as much. The Vandals were viking invaders from the main land along with Saxons and Jutes. All invaded England using long ships. The Vikings of later ages like the Danes used similar long ships. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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4 hours ago, Thandros said:

Azor Ahai is a warrior hero while Christ very explicitly isn't.

 

Lets take a Greek view that all the gods between cultures are the same by another name. 

 

Quote

 

Etymology[edit]

The Old Norse name Aurvandill stems from a Proto-Germanic form reconstructed as *Auza-wandilaz,[1] *Auzi-Wandalaz,[7] or *Auzo-wandiloz.[8][9] It is cognate with Old English Ēarendel, Old High German Aurendil (≈ Orentil), and Lombardic Auriwandalo.[1][2][10] The Gothic word auzandil, translating the Koine Greek ἑωσφόρος (eosphoros, 'dawnbringer'), may also be related.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurvandill

 

 

Notice the Dawn Bringer reference used towards Azor Ahai type figure. Along with the sword Dawn of House Dayne of Starfall.
 

Quote

 

Phosphorus (Greek Φωσφόρος Phōsphoros) is one of the Astra Planeta, specifically the god of the planet Venus in its appearance as the Morning Star. Another Greek name for the Morning Star is Heosphorus (Greek Ἑωσφόρος Heōsphoros), meaning "the dawn-bringer". The form Eosphorus is sometimes met in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus_(morning_star)

Latin literature[edit]

The Latin word corresponding to Greek "Phosphorus" is "Lucifer". It is used in its astronomical sense both in prose[9] and poetry.[10] Poets sometimes personify the star, placing it in a mythological context.

 

Lucifer and Jesus are the Morning Star

Quote

 

“ I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Let us then consider this Old English poem.

Quote

 

Hail Earendel, brightest of angels,
Sent to men over middle-earth,

And true radiance of the sun,
Fine beyond stars, you always illuminate,
From your self, every season!
As you, God born wholly of God,
Son of the true Father, were ever
In the glory of heaven without beginning,
So now your own creation awaits you
Through eternity in need, that you send
To us that bright sun, and you yourself come
So that you illuminate those who for the longest time,
Covered by smoke, and in darkness here,
Dwelled in continual night; enfolded in sins,
They had to endure the dark shadow of death.
Now we believe in joyful salvation,
Brought to people through the word of God,
Which in the beginning was from the Father almighty,
Jointly eternal with God, and now again became
The flesh without sin that the virgin bore

Through suffering to safety. God was with us,
Seen among sins; the mighty child of fate
And the son of man dwelt together,
United amidst the people. We may express
Our thanks to the Lord of victory always through our deeds,
Because he wanted to send himself to us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_I

 

 

So Jesus before he came to Earth in mortal form is Lucifer/ Eosphoros. Son of Eos and grandson of Hyperion the Titan. Whose family was over thrown by Zeus and his kids. With Zeus casting aside Hyperion to take his throne, Aphrodite casting aside Lucifer to become the Morning Star, and Apollo casting aside Helios to become the new sun. This happened during the Titanomachy is which Atlas led the Titans in war against Zeus.

So Jesus was a warrior.

 

What's more, is Lucifer is the 13th born since Adam and Eve.
 

Quote

 

Iapetus was linked to Japheth (יֶפֶת) one of the sons of Noah and a progenitor of mankind in biblical accounts. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapetus

 

So, as Iapetus is brothers with Hyperion and Kronos, father of Zeus. That would make Saturn, Noah. The 10th born after Adam and Eve. 

 

This is likely the inspiration for the Gem Stone Emperors and the Bloodstone Emperor and his sister the Amethyst Empress (Aphrodite and Lucifer). As Aphrodite is a daughter of Zeus by some accounts, making her also the 13th generation since Adam and Eve. 

 

Adam and Eve who lived in the Garden of Eden among the two trees. The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge, which man ate from. These remind me of the Weirwoods in Westeros and the Blue Leaved trees in Essos.

The ancients believed this stuff, as evident by the Poem.

Quote

 

The imagery is very diverse in its subject matter and derivations, and includes a single Christian image, the Adoration of the Magi, along with images derived from Roman history (Emperor Titus) and Roman mythology (Romulus and Remus), as well as a depiction of at least one legend indigenous to the Germanic peoples: that of Weyland the Smith. It has also been suggested that there may be an episode from the Sigurd legend, an otherwise lost episode from the life of Weyland's brother Egil, a Homeric legend involving Achilles, and perhaps even an allusion to the legendary founding of England by Hengist and Horsa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks_Casket

 

This is an Old English Casket written in Runes depicting Christ, the Elven Smith Wayland, Ties to Troy, and ties to Rome.

 

 

Edit- If Earendel sounds familiar. Its because its the Star Frodo holds up against Shelob in Lord of the Rings. Frodo holds it up as he hails Lucifer/Jesus-Earendil.
Edited by AlaskanSandman
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Fantasies are not the only books I recommend to my readers, however. It has always been my belief that epic fantasy and historical fiction are sisters under the skin, as I have said in many an interview. A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE draws as much on the traditions of historical fiction as it does on those of fantasy, and there are many great historical novelists, past and present, whose work helped inspire my own. - GRRM

https://grrm.livejournal.com/316785.html

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On 1/13/2022 at 9:13 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Lets reconsider some of what we are told about the histories and the events of Westeros.  As I see many who still believe the Andals to not be connected with the Long Night.

I personaly think that Andals came on the earliest possible time, meaning 6000 ago and they were there at least when the Night's king was there, if not during the long night.  During Night's King's reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the north. Even though, if I remember corectly, GRRM has said that the long night happened earlier than they think, around 5000 and if this is true, then the Andals could be already there.

Quote

It was not until Brandon the Breaker, the King of Winter, and Joramun , the King-Beyond-the-Wall, joined forces that Night's King was brought down and the Night's Watch freed.

This took place during the age of Heroes and probably not realy late, since the Nigh't King was the 13nth commander, so the watch was fairly new (there is a posibility this was during the long night, but it's not sure). So why do we have wildling at this point of the story? We know that: The free folk believe that the gods made the earth for all men to share and when the kings came with their crowns and their steel swords, they stole it by claiming it was all theirs and theirs alone. So the Andals were already in Westeros at this point. From what we know about Andals, they were very religious, from the start. They drew the star at a rock first thing, when they arrived in Westeros and had it curved on them during fights plus, they were violent on the spreading of the faith. In Essos, also, were ok with slavery and sacrifises, so something happened, something bad, to stop themfromdo these things since all the other men in Westeros did them too. 

Members of the Faith worship the Seven Who Are One, a single deity with seven aspects or faces. This is something that many people have noticed and have point out the similarities with the Many Faced God of the FM, but I want to point out another religion of some short with similar elements, the Church of Starry Wisdom. Both of them have the starry element in them, but there is another hidden similarity.

The Church of Starry Wisdom is a reference to H. P. Lovecraft's The Haunter of the Dark. In the story, the Church worships Nyarlathotep. Nyarlathotep, known to many by his epithet The Crawling Chaos, he differs from the other deities in the Mythos, as he isn't exiled to the stars, he walks the Earth disguised as a human being, usually a tall, slim, joyous man. He has "a thousand" other forms and manifestations, many reputed to be quite horrific and sanity-blasting. Unlike the other Outer Gods, spreading madness is more important and enjoyable than death and destruction to Nyarlathotep. It is suggested by some that he will destroy the human race and possibly the earth as well.

This is something very interesting to me,bc this is considered the most sinister religion in the books and has common ground with the Faith.  

 

Edited by Forward-Speaker-5979
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6 minutes ago, Forward-Speaker-5979 said:

I personaly think that Andals came on the earliest possible time, meaning 6000 ago and they were there at least when the Night's king was there, if not during the long night.  During Night's King's reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the north. Even though, if I remember corectly, GRRM has said that the long night happened earlier than they think, around 5000 and if this is true, then the Andals could be already there.

This took place during the age of Heroes and probably not realy late, since the Nigh't King was the 13nth commander, so the watch was fairly new (there is a posibility this was during the long night, but it's not sure). So why do we have wildling at this point of the story? We know that: The free folk believe that the gods made the earth for all men to share and when the kings came with their crowns and their steel swords, they stole it by claiming it was all theirs and theirs alone. So the Andals were already in Westeros at this point. From what we know about Andals, they were very religious, from the start. They drew the star at a rock first thing, when they arrived in Westeros and had it curved on them during fights plus, they were violent on the spreading of the faith. In Essos, also, were ok with slavery and sacrifises, so something happened, something bad, to stop themfromdo these things since all the other men in Westeros did them too. 

Members of the Faith worship the Seven Who Are One, a single deity with seven aspects or faces. This is something that many people have noticed and have point out the similarities with the Many Faced God of the FM, but I want to point out another religion of some short with similar elements, the Church of Starry Wisdom. Both of them have the starry element in them, but there is another hidden similarity.

The Church of Starry Wisdom is a reference to H. P. Lovecraft's The Haunter of the Dark. In the story, the Church worships Nyarlathotep. Nyarlathotep, known to many by his epithet The Crawling Chaos, he differs from the other deities in the Mythos, as he isn't exiled to the stars, he walks the Earth disguised as a human being, usually a tall, slim, joyous man. He has "a thousand" other forms and manifestations, many reputed to be quite horrific and sanity-blasting. Unlike the other Outer Gods, spreading madness is more important and enjoyable than death and destruction to Nyarlathotep. It is suggested by some that he will destroy the human race and possibly the earth as well.

This is something very interesting to me,bc this is considered the most sinister religion in the books and has common ground with the Faith.  

 

Thats another way to take it and still links the Andals to the Long Night, which is one of the larger points of the timeline take away I get. The Iron Born I get the feeling were the earlier Andals who kept to the old way and never took up tilling the soil as the mainlanders did that merged with the First Men. The earlier Andals fleeing Valyria may have gone further than the later group that stayed in Andalos for a time hoping to establish themselves there but failing ultimately when not Valyria, but Theon Stark wipes them out.

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