Andals, Glass Candles, Iron Born and Valyrians.

[Thandros]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well the Iron Born history isn't to be trusted. Which is my point. They were illiterate till Harmund I Hoare sometime after the Andal Invasion. So any history before then is questionable at best. 

Plus, they possibly took the Citadel and had access to forge the records

Consider this. There have been 111 Kings of the Iron Isles, yet there are supposedly 998 L.C's of the Nights Watch (Another group with a dubious history. One tied to the Night Fort for most its history.).

In 2000 years there have been around 260 popes in Rome. 

So either the Iron Born are missing a lottttt of kings from their list. (Which if they're illiterate, might make sense). Or, the Night's Watch list is misunderstood or wrong. With it being possible that each castle had its own L.C. With 19 Castle on the Wall, that would cut the years by a lot.

One possibility is that different kings have merged to together over time defined only by their stories. Kings with the same name would end up looking very similar particularly if their stories lack distinguishing marks to tell them apart.Also do you think the Ironborn universally noted as unintellectual would have the capacity to organise the forgery of thousands of records in the citadel in such a way that no would be able to ever tell the differences and then have those changes applied to records of the Ironborn kept elsewhere. Westeros has a fair degree of the centralisation of knowledge but I don't think it's so extreme that even the Ironborn could falsify a huge amount of history.

With the Night's Watch at least you could easily have several in a year without problems assuming elections are held quickly and given the nature of the job you easily expect to lose Lord Commanders fairly routinely and remember the History of the Nihgt's Watch goes back 8000 years or so plenty of time to have 998 Lord Commanders and Samwell finds some very old lists listing only 600 or Lord Commanders so they have records detailing their Lord Commanders going back quite some time at the very least.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That being said, we are pointed to the Iron Born hiding stuff and being closer to the Andals than alluded. 

Hugor of the Hill has 44 sons and is an Andal mythic hero and founder.

Nagga's Hill on Old Wyk has 44 Ribs or Weirwoods that were chopped down. With a legend of the Grey King slaying the demon tree Ygg. Many believing these are not dead trees, but rather, carved weirwoods forming the Haul of an Overturned ship. 

High Heart has 31 chopped down Weirwoods.

 

The Iron Isles have 44 Islands total. With 31 in the Main Grouping of which 7 are the largest, then 13 extra near Lonely Isle.

 

Erreg the KinSlayer attacked HighHeart and cut down these trees. He was supposedly an Andal who fought the Cotf (though most Maesters in True History would have us believe the Cotf were gone by then)

Errege is Latin for King. So Maester Perestan was right in his A consideration of History. Erreg is just a title.

Errege is King in Basque not Latin though it is apparently derives from Latin (which if true would be a very interesting thing to try and understand about very early basque culture and their organisation). The numbers thing is probably another coincidence. It should also be noted while Lonely light and it's rocks are grouped with the Iron Islands in every sense they are unconnected. They're eight days sail away. That's no small distance so far beyond that they will probably not show up on most maps at all.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Torgon_Greyiron  Erreg the Kin Slayer is likely Torgon GreyIron the Later Comer who slew his brother for hiding the Kingsmoot from him.

House GreyIron are Andals, before House Hoare who are also Andal.

This suggest that the Iron Born are who attacked HighHeart, possibly built a giant ship from the Trees, and are the Andals fighting the First Men.

I would think Tristifer IV who died against 7 Andal Kings, is likely the King who fought for Highheart against Erreg the Kin Slayer (Torgon the Later Comer GreyIron). With the 7 Andal Kings being Rock Kings from the 7 Iron Islands.

The 13 Islands near Lonely Light, point to the Night's King who was L.C of the Watch for 13 years.

With 13 being carved into the Weirwood at Harrenhal, built by Harren the Black Hoare whose brother was L.C. of the Watch, ruling from the Night Fort. 

With the Nightfort having the secret Weirwood door for sacrificing children, and the Andals/Iron born breaking the Pact of the First Men and driving back the Children of the Forest beyond the Wall. It would make a lot of sense that Harren's brother is at the Wall, while Harren is holding down the Riverlands. They are holding back the CotF from what it looks like.

Ummm no. That is all rubbish. Remember this detail. The Greyirons were wipped out by the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands (The Hoares do have some andal blood some marrying Andal wives to strengthen their position). Also Torgon Greyiron comes at least a thousand years prior to the end of House Greyiron and the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands involving timelines and tales of a some what dubious note. At the very least he comes from teh Kingsmoot era which is the older section of Ironborn history and probably pre Andal which makes this all highyl unlikely at best.

Also the Black Gate isn't for sacrificing children. It's likely an old secret way across the wall that can only be used by the Watchmen to come and go in relative security for leading sorties or scouting their enemies undetected. Harren's brother and Harren have no evidence of coordination and it's more likely Harren forced his brother into the Night's Watch to secure his position.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Oldest part of Pyke castle is a Round Tower. 

 

If the Iron Born were the first Andals, and they broke the Pact, then it would stand to reason they would want to hide this fact. Giving motivation to take the Citadel as House Hoare did.

The Oldest part of the Citadel is a castle said to be a pirates den originally.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Isle_of_Ravens

 

It may be that the foundation of the Citadel is somehow tied to the Iron born as the Hightowers are said to be a Sea Faring people. Apparently not one of the Good Brothers.

 

Edit- Erreg was supposedly acting for a River King against his rival. Suggesting this is House Blackwood and House Bracken. Who usurped the other either 1000 years before the Andals, or 500 years before according to Hoster Blackwood

So is Winterfell's oldest tower and no one suggests they are secret Andals. Given the location and state of Pyke it probably losses Towers at a routine basis as their stack are eroded away by the sea. it's probably younger than the First Keep in Winterfell by a considerable margin.

The island was a pirate den but nothing to suggest the builds were. Likely the pirates were Ironborn when they held Oldtown in the distant past. I should note the settlement is said to have originally been found by a sea faring people though given the suggestions they may not have travelled the sea in any conventional means if the deep ones are behind it like the Seastone chair and the Toad stone among others. It certainly gives some creepy edge to the Ironborn worship of the drowned god but I don't think it says much about the Hightowers themselves or whatever connections they have. They may have arrived and taken over the original oldtown some time after it's founding.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Thandros said:

One possibility is that different kings have merged to together over time defined only by their stories. Kings with the same name would end up looking very similar particularly if their stories lack distinguishing marks to tell them apart.Also do you think the Ironborn universally noted as unintellectual would have the capacity to organise the forgery of thousands of records in the citadel in such a way that no would be able to ever tell the differences and then have those changes applied to records of the Ironborn kept elsewhere. Westeros has a fair degree of the centralisation of knowledge but I don't think it's so extreme that even the Ironborn could falsify a huge amount of history.

With the Night's Watch at least you could easily have several in a year without problems assuming elections are held quickly and given the nature of the job you easily expect to lose Lord Commanders fairly routinely and remember the History of the Nihgt's Watch goes back 8000 years or so plenty of time to have 998 Lord Commanders and Samwell finds some very old lists listing only 600 or Lord Commanders so they have records detailing their Lord Commanders going back quite some time at the very least.

Errege is King in Basque not Latin though it is apparently derives from Latin (which if true would be a very interesting thing to try and understand about very early basque culture and their organisation). The numbers thing is probably another coincidence. It should also be noted while Lonely light and it's rocks are grouped with the Iron Islands in every sense they are unconnected. They're eight days sail away. That's no small distance so far beyond that they will probably not show up on most maps at all.

Ummm no. That is all rubbish. Remember this detail. The Greyirons were wipped out by the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands (The Hoares do have some andal blood some marrying Andal wives to strengthen their position). Also Torgon Greyiron comes at least a thousand years prior to the end of House Greyiron and the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands involving timelines and tales of a some what dubious note. At the very least he comes from teh Kingsmoot era which is the older section of Ironborn history and probably pre Andal which makes this all highyl unlikely at best.

Also the Black Gate isn't for sacrificing children. It's likely an old secret way across the wall that can only be used by the Watchmen to come and go in relative security for leading sorties or scouting their enemies undetected. Harren's brother and Harren have no evidence of coordination and it's more likely Harren forced his brother into the Night's Watch to secure his position.

So is Winterfell's oldest tower and no one suggests they are secret Andals. Given the location and state of Pyke it probably losses Towers at a routine basis as their stack are eroded away by the sea. it's probably younger than the First Keep in Winterfell by a considerable margin.

The island was a pirate den but nothing to suggest the builds were. Likely the pirates were Ironborn when they held Oldtown in the distant past. I should note the settlement is said to have originally been found by a sea faring people though given the suggestions they may not have travelled the sea in any conventional means if the deep ones are behind it like the Seastone chair and the Toad stone among others. It certainly gives some creepy edge to the Ironborn worship of the drowned god but I don't think it says much about the Hightowers themselves or whatever connections they have. They may have arrived and taken over the original oldtown some time after it's founding.

I get the feeling I could say anything and you'd argue it. Illogical or not while ignoring more than worthy clues laid out by the author. 

Like, why would the Nights Watch need a secret door for attacking people? That makes no sense. They have plenty of gates, and the Wildlings aren't that close to the Wall to care. IF an army is attacking Castle Black, a small band led out some tiny door underneath the castle isn't likely a large enough force to matter in any battle. You're also just as likely to allow the Wildings through to the other side than you are to make some effective attack. You're better off to stay atop the Wall and fire down on them. Other than any group needed to hold Castle Black itself from attack from the South. None of which would require a door.

 

You're also quick to shoot down clues laid by Martin, using the Maesters as your claim to truth, yet turn around make unsubstantiated claims like this.

Quote

Given the location and state of Pyke it probably losses Towers at a routine basis as their stack are eroded away by the sea. it's probably younger than the First Keep in Winterfell by a considerable margin.

You play real lose with your arguments

Why would it be younger than the First Keep by considerable margin? When it, the HIghtower, First Keep at Winterfell, and Storm's End are all First man keeps and all but Pyke were built by Bran the Builder supposedly. Showing the Stonemason to likely be the same, or of the same culture to have those skills and knowledge. What evidence are you even basing on that on??

Quote

Errege is King in Basque not Latin though it is apparently derives from Latin

Yea, that means it's Latin. Not Basque. If it derives from Latin, then it is Latin. 

Basque is a language Isolate and likely predates Proto-Indo European. They have different diphthongs than Latin also.

Rex is King in Latin also, so Errege is likely just an older form possibly picked up from the Etruscan's  if anything.

[Thandros]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I get the feeling I could say anything and you'd argue it. Illogical or not while ignoring more than worthy clues laid out by the author. 

Like, why would the Nights Watch need a secret door for attacking people? That makes no sense. They have plenty of gates, and the Wildlings aren't that close to the Wall to care. IF an army is attacking Castle Black, a small band led out some tiny door underneath the castle isn't likely a large enough force to matter in any battle. You're also just as likely to allow the Wildings through to the other side than you are to make some effective attack. You're better off to stay atop the Wall and fire down on them. Other than any group needed to hold Castle Black itself from attack from the South. None of which would require a door.

 

You're also quick to shoot down clues laid by Martin, using the Maesters as your claim to truth, yet turn around make unsubstantiated claims like this.

Umm the same reason most castles have sally ports. A well timed and executed sally against an unprepared enemy can devastate them such that they are forced to retreat and abandon the siege. Given the nature of the wall it's possible the gates are later additions and the black gate was originally the principle way through designed to ensure only black brothers left or entered. It might say something about Other tactics that such a thing might be considered necessary.

Something to consider is the concept of the red herring or maybe the term coincidence means nothing to you. Of course you've probably got some theory about the number seven because it appears everywhere in the older stories. Even though it's just Septons inserting the number everywhere they can. Not every tiny match up of numbers is going to be significant.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You play real lose with your arguments

Why would it be younger than the First Keep by considerable margin? When it, the HIghtower, First Keep at Winterfell, and Storm's End are all First man keeps and all but Pyke were built by Bran the Builder supposedly. Showing the Stonemason to likely be the same, or of the same culture to have those skills and knowledge. What evidence are you even basing on that on??

Because those castles have equally been rebuilt and coastal erosion. Pyke sits on a series of Stacks. They erode away. Not quickly but they do. The sea tower sites on the outermost sack and is the oldest because it's stack has been around the longest and will likely be the next to fall into the sea. It's simple geology of coastal erosion. Waves attack rock and erode it. Weaker rocks erode faster to create arches. Arches collapse to form stacks. Stack erode and topple to form stumps. It's not a precise process depends on the rock but it will happen eventually. This isn't even speculation the descript of Pyke in AWOIAF literally says this happened over time. The oldest part of Winterfell must be somewhat older than two thousand years old and I find it unlikely the oldest part of Pyke is that old. Also None of these castles were likely actually built by Brandon the builders. He's a sort of mythic figure not likely to actually exist. But a Bunch of old castles claim to have been built by them despite probably only reaching their current form thousands of years later in much more recent times.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea, that means it's Latin. Not Basque. If it derives from Latin, then it is Latin. 

Basque is a language Isolate and likely predates Proto-Indo European. They have different diphthongs than Latin also.

Rex is King in Latin also, so Errege is likely just an older form possibly picked up from the Etruscan's  if anything.

No it doesn't. When a language borrows a word sure it's the same for a time but Basque borrowed from the Latin term Regem perhaps two thousand years ago or maybe a little later it's hard to say. It's long ceased to be a latin term and aquired a basque nature and a basque set of forms. It's ceased to be a foreign word in Basque but a loanword and as such a part of basque. Or do you consider half of English to be a different language.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Thandros said:

Or do you consider half of English to be a different language.

Yes, I do. Latin, German, Greek, and Spanish make up many words in the English language. Just because English uses the word Mansion, does not mean Mansion is of English origin. Mansion is a French loan word, of French origin.

Just as Errege is a Latin word. 

 We use Jalapeno in the U.s. Doesn't mean its of English origin or an English word. 

[GOTSeriesfan]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:27 PM, Mourning Star said:

I think you touch on some interesting things but make a bunch of leaps I don’t follow…

When you hear “1000 years” I think that’s like the Bible saying “40 year”, it just means a long time, not a literal number.

I don’t think you can assume all the mentions of 1000 years mean exactly the same thing or even that the old stories from that long ago are all accurate. Or that multiple men can’t share the same name.

I do not believe the Andal invasion could possibly have happened during the age of heroes or before the Long Night (which presumably was the end of the age of heroes, given the “last hero”).

That said, I do think there are some intentional discrepancies which point to a group of peoples other than the First Men, who had seafaring, ironworking, and advanced construction before the Andal invasion.

Everything we have learned points to the Andals being driven from Essos by the rise of Valyria.

The Age of Heroes occured before the Andal Invasion after the Pact was sealed between the Children and the First Men and the Long Night. Then the different ancestral figures of many Houses emerged.

1. Bran the Builder - The first King in the North and the Wall's architect, founder of House Stark
2. Grey King - A King of the Iron Islands who slew Nagga, the first sea dragon, making a hall of his bones, and built the first ship from the wood of a demon tree, and the ancestor of House Greyjoy
3. Lann the Clever - A trickster who deceived House Casterly out of Casterly Rock to make it his own, and in another tale, he fathered enough bastards with their maidens to be accepted into the castle, where he founded House Lannister
4. Garth Greenhand - The first King of the Reach who made the land bloom and wore a crown of flowers, who is the ancestor of many Houses in the Reach, including House Tyrell
5. Durran Godsgrief - The first Storm King who married the immortal Elenei and built several castles to oppose her parents' wrath, with his last and most resilient one being Storm's End. He is the ancestor of House Durrandon and through the female line, House Baratheon

Houses Arryn and Martell were founded after the Andal Invasion.

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, GOTSeriesfan said:

The Age of Heroes occured before the Andal Invasion after the Pact was sealed between the Children and the First Men and the Long Night. Then the different ancestral figures of many Houses emerged.

1. Bran the Builder - The first King in the North and the Wall's architect, founder of House Stark
2. Grey King - A King of the Iron Islands who slew Nagga, the first sea dragon, making a hall of his bones, and built the first ship from the wood of a demon tree, and the ancestor of House Greyjoy
3. Lann the Clever - A trickster who deceived House Casterly out of Casterly Rock to make it his own, and in another tale, he fathered enough bastards with their maidens to be accepted into the castle, where he founded House Lannister
4. Garth Greenhand - The first King of the Reach who made the land bloom and wore a crown of flowers, who is the ancestor of many Houses in the Reach, including House Tyrell
5. Durran Godsgrief - The first Storm King who married the immortal Elenei and built several castles to oppose her parents' wrath, with his last and most resilient one being Storm's End. He is the ancestor of House Durrandon and through the female line, House Baratheon

Houses Arryn and Martell were founded after the Andal Invasion.

I still think the Age of Heroes was the beginning or early migration of Andals. Akin to the Anglo-Saxon migration to England before the Viking invasion. Both groups being part of the Germanic families as opposed to the Celtic societies they invaded in England.  The Valyrian invasion is akin to the Romans who in Norse culture were called the Vallir people in the Kingdom of Val. Using the spelling themes of the Romans found in Hispania, you turn Val or Valir, into Valiria/ Valyria. Who likewise built roads that they became famous for.

[GOTSeriesfan]

6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I still think the Age of Heroes was the beginning or early migration of Andals. Akin to the Anglo-Saxon migration to England before the Viking invasion. Both groups being part of the Germanic families as opposed to the Celtic societies they invaded in England.  The Valyrian invasion is akin to the Romans who in Norse culture were called the Vallir people in the Kingdom of Val. Using the spelling themes of the Romans found in Hispania, you turn Val or Valir, into Valiria/ Valyria. Who likewise built roads that they became famous for.

No, no, the Age of Heroes happened before the migration of the Andals. All of the figures in the Age of Heroes are First Men. The Age of Heroes was after the Pact and the Long Night. Both involved the First Men, not Andals

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, GOTSeriesfan said:

No, no, the Age of Heroes happened before the migration of the Andals. All of the figures in the Age of Heroes are First Men. The Age of Heroes was after the Pact and the Long Night. Both involved the First Men, not Andals

Yet there are clear hints that the Andals were there then, Like Lann the Clever being an Andal, or the descendant of an Andal. Through Floys the Fox or Rowan Goldtree, which connects House Gardener who is off having Tourney's with Knights and dragon slayers. Also the castles having round towers among other things. 

[AlaskanSandman]

26 minutes ago, GOTSeriesfan said:

No, no, the Age of Heroes happened before the migration of the Andals. All of the figures in the Age of Heroes are First Men. The Age of Heroes was after the Pact and the Long Night. Both involved the First Men, not Andals

If you except the fact that you are being mislead, then the picture changes. Like Andals building round towers. When there are no round towers in Pentos, a mostly andal city. Also, there are no ruined castles with round towers mentioned in Essos near Andalos. The Aryns only built theirs after visiting the castles of Westeros. The Maesters are either purposely or accidentally reporting history wrong. The Andals are who broke the pact during the Age of Heroes that was established between the First Men and the Cotf

 

[Mourning Star]

8 hours ago, GOTSeriesfan said:

The Age of Heroes occured before the Andal Invasion after the Pact was sealed between the Children and the First Men and the Long Night. Then the different ancestral figures of many Houses emerged.

1. Bran the Builder - The first King in the North and the Wall's architect, founder of House Stark
2. Grey King - A King of the Iron Islands who slew Nagga, the first sea dragon, making a hall of his bones, and built the first ship from the wood of a demon tree, and the ancestor of House Greyjoy
3. Lann the Clever - A trickster who deceived House Casterly out of Casterly Rock to make it his own, and in another tale, he fathered enough bastards with their maidens to be accepted into the castle, where he founded House Lannister
4. Garth Greenhand - The first King of the Reach who made the land bloom and wore a crown of flowers, who is the ancestor of many Houses in the Reach, including House Tyrell
5. Durran Godsgrief - The first Storm King who married the immortal Elenei and built several castles to oppose her parents' wrath, with his last and most resilient one being Storm's End. He is the ancestor of House Durrandon and through the female line, House Baratheon

Houses Arryn and Martell were founded after the Andal Invasion.

Yes the Age of Heroes/Long Night were well before the Andal invasion... but, the Age of Heroes likely begins with the Pact and the breaking of the Arm of Dorne, and ended with the Long Night, and the "Last Hero".

However, my point was that even from around the time of the Long Night there is evidence of a people more advanced than the First Men, but this is clearly long before the Andals or Rhoynar were driven from Essos by the rise of Valyria.

Just the simple idea that the Others hated iron, tells us that they had iron in Westeros the last time the Others came (long before the Andals) and this is supported by the ancient iron swords in the Stark crypts, which are below a round tower with gargoyles (both indicative of non-First Man construction), in addition the Starks were once a sea power (another technology at odds with what we know of the First Men).

Given the tales from Essos about the Long Night and the stories of Bran the Builder, I'd suggest that the origins of House Stark are not purely the First Men.