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Andals, Glass Candles, Iron Born and Valyrians.


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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lets take a Greek view that all the gods between cultures are the same by another name. 

 

Quote

 

Etymology[edit]

The Old Norse name Aurvandill stems from a Proto-Germanic form reconstructed as *Auza-wandilaz,[1] *Auzi-Wandalaz,[7] or *Auzo-wandiloz.[8][9] It is cognate with Old English Ēarendel, Old High German Aurendil (≈ Orentil), and Lombardic Auriwandalo.[1][2][10] The Gothic word auzandil, translating the Koine Greek ἑωσφόρος (eosphoros, 'dawnbringer'), may also be related.[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurvandill

 

 

As for Venus-related mythology, it is important to note that the mythic associations can differ quite dramatically on the details that they focus on. For instance, Jesus as Venus is a falling-then-rising figure. His status as the morning star is a glorious end state. In contrast, the King of Babylon described in Isaiah 14 is called "Lightbringer, star of the morning" as a setup to indicate his eventual downfall. He is a rising-then-falling figure, and his end state is the ignominious evenfall. Sure, these are opposing phases of the same continuous star cycle, but it's the details of focus that guide symbolic language that matters. With Jesus, the focus is salvation after suffering. With Lucifer, it a reign followed by ruin. I know this is pedantry, but it doesn't follow that Jesus is a warrior simply because he and the King of Babylon were both called the morning star. Of course, if Christians want Jesus to be a warrior, then they can focus on passages that seem to support the notion (like Matthew 10:34), and simply depict him as such, like this mosaic.

Now, all that said, I do take the point that Azor Ahai may indeed represent both phases of the Venus myth. The Red Priests regard him as a falling-then-rising figure like Jesus, yet there are clues (most notably the similarities between AA and the Bloodstone Emperor) that the guy who is credited with ending the Long Night also brought it all on. This "full cycle" interpretation of the Venus myth does seem to be in keeping with GRRM's ambivalence about greatness and heroism, and so I think the idea has some promise.

 

Edited by Phylum of Alexandria
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5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Gonna hard disagree with your associations here as making no sense at all. The Vikings were the Stormlanders invading the Riverlands? That makes no sense. The Vikings were a sea faring people that came from a different country to the Island of England. The Storm landers invading the Riverlands would be akin to to Essex invading Mercia as both live on the same Island. 

You're apparently unaware of the theories that Jesus was the leader of a rebellious militia group.

Whether you agree with their theories about Jesus, or the Danish assertion of Folk Legend that say's they come from the Tribes of Dan. Is irrelevant to the fact that these things exist, and GRRM is a biggggg fan of history and myst and uses both as inspiration for his books. 

And no, we're not confused on when the Iron Age began or the steel Age. The Iron Age began after the Dark Ages that followed the civilization collapses along the Mediterranean, with history largely picking up again with new kingdoms on the board and old ones gone, like the Myceneans. 

Hard to take the rest serious as you seem to have a select knowledge on history and myth and assert your own feelings to much on the subjects validity instead of excepting that these theories exist whether you agree or not. I don't think the Danish are likely of the tribe of Dan either any more than British Israelism. Yet, they exist and were believed to be history at the time of the medieval age. Kings and queens based their lineages on these claims. With some going back to Cleopatra and some going to the Lost Tribes of Israel. While two from Trojan hero's Aeneas and Brutus. Brutus being the British connection to Troy and where the name Britain comes from that Replaced Albion. So named from a Greek Princess who came to the Island hundreds of years before Troy.

The Stormlanders are the Anglo Saxons. Invited in to deal with a disturbance in Britain (Riverlands) aiding one side against the other and then refusing to leave and end up taking over. The Iron born conquest is the invasion of the Vikings. They initially defeat the Local forces of the Riverlands (Northumbria and other Anglo saxon kingdoms) and eventually manage to win victories against the men of Wessex (Stormlands) and they were able to claim control of part of the Kingdom of the Stormlands, the Riverlands (Northumbria and East Anglia and elsewhere). It's a very rough paraphrasing at best and misses some details but mostly works.

On the Iron age. Some Iron artifacts made by smelting go back as far as 1800 BCE the general consensus that large scale smelting began around 1200 BCE long before the end of the Dark Age (a period which really only refers to Greece, the other regions have their own periodization which often doesn't match up.)

That entire last section is a random hodgepodge of different myths tales and legends of no historical value.  Maybe people did believe them but I doubt anyone would seriously claim to be descended from them. Theories exist but that doesn't mean their right or important. You seem to think every thing is connected with the right wacky interpretation I can produce an answer that will answer everything and fail to realise in the process you've created theories that lack any basis in anything. 

If you want me to give a serious answer please produce a serious piece of writing to analyse in the first place. Slapping every myth you find together does not make an argument.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why do you say that?

If the Iron born had taken Old Town, and the Citadel along with its Maesters and Glass Candles, then they could have altered the records to dissociate them selves all they wanted. Disconnecting them selves as culprits of the Long Night. 

You can't disagree that Euron is doing exactly as the Hoare Kings did and trying to conquer all of Westeros naming him self king of every where he goes (Even if contested). With Dany being one of the few things that can stop him. Which is very much the situation I'm suggesting happened in the past. 

The Hoares when they controlled Oldtown could alter the records all they wanted but they can't change the fact that when Aegon landed Oldtown and the Hightower were held by the Hightowers as bannerman to the Gardener Kings.

"The Greatest city in all of Westeros, Oldtown was ringed  with massive walls, and ruled by the Hightowers of the Hightower, the oldest, richest, and most powerful of the noble houses of the Reach. … Thus it was that no men from Oldtown Burned on the field of fire, though the Hightowers were bannermen to the Gardeners of Highgarden." Fire and Blood p23-25

There literally in the text. The Hightowers ruled oldtown as Bannermen to the Gardeners. No uberpowerful Hoares ruling everything and only stopped by the arrival of Aegon.

As for Euron. I think conquest is the last thing on his mind. Kings age and die, their realms crumble around them and turn to dust and ashes in their hands. Gods live forever though both in reality and in the minds of their worshipers.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well an invasion could have happened the other direction. I still feel the Andals came from Essos and are stated as having come from the same general area as the first men. Being possibly one of the three tribes conquered by Huzhor Amai. Suggesting they began around the same time.

Andals are so named for the Vandals and GRRM has already said as much. The Vandals were viking invaders from the main land along with Saxons and Jutes. All invaded England using long ships. The Vikings of later ages like the Danes used similar long ships. 

Just a couple of things about the Vandals. One they were a germanic people not vikings. Viking is a particular Norse term refering to an activity not a group of people and two the Vandals never invaded Britain as a group. They crossed the rhine in 409 into Gaul then entered Spain before eventually invading and settling North Africa before being effectively destroyed when the Vandal Kingdom was conquered by Justinian.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Lets take a Greek view that all the gods between cultures are the same by another name. 

 

 

Notice the Dawn Bringer reference used towards Azor Ahai type figure. Along with the sword Dawn of House Dayne of Starfall.
 

Lucifer and Jesus are the Morning Star

Let us then consider this Old English poem.

 

So Jesus before he came to Earth in mortal form is Lucifer/ Eosphoros. Son of Eos and grandson of Hyperion the Titan. Whose family was over thrown by Zeus and his kids. With Zeus casting aside Hyperion to take his throne, Aphrodite casting aside Lucifer to become the Morning Star, and Apollo casting aside Helios to become the new sun. This happened during the Titanomachy is which Atlas led the Titans in war against Zeus.

So Jesus was a warrior.

 

What's more, is Lucifer is the 13th born since Adam and Eve.
 

So, as Iapetus is brothers with Hyperion and Kronos, father of Zeus. That would make Saturn, Noah. The 10th born after Adam and Eve. 

 

This is likely the inspiration for the Gem Stone Emperors and the Bloodstone Emperor and his sister the Amethyst Empress (Aphrodite and Lucifer). As Aphrodite is a daughter of Zeus by some accounts, making her also the 13th generation since Adam and Eve. 

 

Adam and Eve who lived in the Garden of Eden among the two trees. The Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge, which man ate from. These remind me of the Weirwoods in Westeros and the Blue Leaved trees in Essos.

The ancients believed this stuff, as evident by the Poem.

This is an Old English Casket written in Runes depicting Christ, the Elven Smith Wayland, Ties to Troy, and ties to Rome.

 

One the greek view is highly reductionist and extremely inapplicable particularly if you are trying to compare polytheistic and monotheistic religions. It often won't work very well and you should really analyse culture with it's own context not try to force it to fit another.

First point is that the connection between Earendel and dawnbringer relies on a possible connection across different language groups from opposite ends of Europe. Also Koine greek develops into Medieval Greek before Old English really begins to appear depending on who you ask.

Second with the Morning Star you once again cross cultures and language groups to assimilate the Morning Star and Lucifer. Lucifer is the Latin name for the Morning Star not related to Lucifer of the Bible. It relies on mistranslation of the Hebrew Old testament through Latin into English to create. it's not important.

And then you compound by mistaking the given grammar. David is the bright morning Star not Jesus. The section in the comma refers to the individual before it not the one at the start.

One if you've forgotten Zeus was the son of Kronus so he cast Hyperion away from nothing. Two Zeus didn't have children until after the overthrow of Kronus that part doesn't make sense. Three given I've broken the Morning star, jesus and lucifer connection already the rest makes no sense.

Iaeptus is equated with Japheth. They're not the same chracter they come from vastly different mytholigical underpinnings. Trying to make them the same is just the wrong thing to do.

Aphrodite is much more commonly said to have been born from the cut off private parts of Ouranos. Also Greek myth is mess with different places having different beliefs and ideas which don't always come together.

The casket is a casket. They decided to give it a bunch of different images on all it's sides from different places and peoples. The connection to Troy relies on the incomplete lid which is disputed as to what it refers. It's hard to place anyone's actual belief based purely on what they placed on a casket. Very important for early anglo saxon art and culture. It suggests they had knowledge of familiarity with a wide variety of topics to carve into it. I'm not sure what your trying to go with here.

Also they ain't the ancients. By the time of the poems they'd have entered the Medieval period.

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
Edit- If Earendel sounds familiar. Its because its the Star Frodo holds up against Shelob in Lord of the Rings. Frodo holds it up as he hails Lucifer/Jesus-Earendil.

The object Frodo holds up is a Phial containing the light of Earendil not Earendil the star or the person. The Star's in the sky and the light is the Silmaril Earendil carried to Valinor and then bore upon his brow in the sky forevermore. Earendil is the father of Elros and Elrond who traveled across the sea from Beleriand to Valinor to because the Arda to provide aid against Morgoth.

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1 hour ago, Thandros said:

The Stormlanders are the Anglo Saxons. Invited in to deal with a disturbance in Britain (Riverlands) aiding one side against the other and then refusing to leave and end up taking over. The Iron born conquest is the invasion of the Vikings. They initially defeat the Local forces of the Riverlands (Northumbria and other Anglo saxon kingdoms) and eventually manage to win victories against the men of Wessex (Stormlands) and they were able to claim control of part of the Kingdom of the Stormlands, the Riverlands (Northumbria and East Anglia and elsewhere). It's a very rough paraphrasing at best and misses some details but mostly works.

On the Iron age. Some Iron artifacts made by smelting go back as far as 1800 BCE the general consensus that large scale smelting began around 1200 BCE long before the end of the Dark Age (a period which really only refers to Greece, the other regions have their own periodization which often doesn't match up.)

That entire last section is a random hodgepodge of different myths tales and legends of no historical value.  Maybe people did believe them but I doubt anyone would seriously claim to be descended from them. Theories exist but that doesn't mean their right or important. You seem to think every thing is connected with the right wacky interpretation I can produce an answer that will answer everything and fail to realise in the process you've created theories that lack any basis in anything. 

If you want me to give a serious answer please produce a serious piece of writing to analyse in the first place. Slapping every myth you find together does not make an argument.

The Hoares when they controlled Oldtown could alter the records all they wanted but they can't change the fact that when Aegon landed Oldtown and the Hightower were held by the Hightowers as bannerman to the Gardener Kings.

"The Greatest city in all of Westeros, Oldtown was ringed  with massive walls, and ruled by the Hightowers of the Hightower, the oldest, richest, and most powerful of the noble houses of the Reach. … Thus it was that no men from Oldtown Burned on the field of fire, though the Hightowers were bannermen to the Gardeners of Highgarden." Fire and Blood p23-25

There literally in the text. The Hightowers ruled oldtown as Bannermen to the Gardeners. No uberpowerful Hoares ruling everything and only stopped by the arrival of Aegon.

As for Euron. I think conquest is the last thing on his mind. Kings age and die, their realms crumble around them and turn to dust and ashes in their hands. Gods live forever though both in reality and in the minds of their worshipers.

Just a couple of things about the Vandals. One they were a germanic people not vikings. Viking is a particular Norse term refering to an activity not a group of people and two the Vandals never invaded Britain as a group. They crossed the rhine in 409 into Gaul then entered Spain before eventually invading and settling North Africa before being effectively destroyed when the Vandal Kingdom was conquered by Justinian.

One the greek view is highly reductionist and extremely inapplicable particularly if you are trying to compare polytheistic and monotheistic religions. It often won't work very well and you should really analyse culture with it's own context not try to force it to fit another.

First point is that the connection between Earendel and dawnbringer relies on a possible connection across different language groups from opposite ends of Europe. Also Koine greek develops into Medieval Greek before Old English really begins to appear depending on who you ask.

Second with the Morning Star you once again cross cultures and language groups to assimilate the Morning Star and Lucifer. Lucifer is the Latin name for the Morning Star not related to Lucifer of the Bible. It relies on mistranslation of the Hebrew Old testament through Latin into English to create. it's not important.

And then you compound by mistaking the given grammar. David is the bright morning Star not Jesus. The section in the comma refers to the individual before it not the one at the start.

One if you've forgotten Zeus was the son of Kronus so he cast Hyperion away from nothing. Two Zeus didn't have children until after the overthrow of Kronus that part doesn't make sense. Three given I've broken the Morning star, jesus and lucifer connection already the rest makes no sense.

Iaeptus is equated with Japheth. They're not the same chracter they come from vastly different mytholigical underpinnings. Trying to make them the same is just the wrong thing to do.

Aphrodite is much more commonly said to have been born from the cut off private parts of Ouranos. Also Greek myth is mess with different places having different beliefs and ideas which don't always come together.

The casket is a casket. They decided to give it a bunch of different images on all it's sides from different places and peoples. The connection to Troy relies on the incomplete lid which is disputed as to what it refers. It's hard to place anyone's actual belief based purely on what they placed on a casket. Very important for early anglo saxon art and culture. It suggests they had knowledge of familiarity with a wide variety of topics to carve into it. I'm not sure what your trying to go with here.

Also they ain't the ancients. By the time of the poems they'd have entered the Medieval period.

The object Frodo holds up is a Phial containing the light of Earendil not Earendil the star or the person. The Star's in the sky and the light is the Silmaril Earendil carried to Valinor and then bore upon his brow in the sky forevermore. Earendil is the father of Elros and Elrond who traveled across the sea from Beleriand to Valinor to because the Arda to provide aid against Morgoth.

No, just no. Im not even going to bother touching anything you said and already gave your more time than I care for. Enjoy your view though

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1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

As for Venus-related mythology, it is important to note that the mythic associations can differ quite dramatically on the details that they focus on. For instance, Jesus as Venus is a falling-then-rising figure. His status as the morning star is a glorious end state. In contrast, the King of Babylon described in Isaiah 14 is called "Lightbringer, star of the morning" as a setup to indicate his eventual downfall. He is a rising-then-falling figure, and his end state is the ignominious evenfall. Sure, these are opposing phases of the same continuous star cycle, but it's the details of focus that guide symbolic language that matters. With Jesus, the focus is salvation after suffering. With Lucifer, it a reign followed by ruin. I know this is pedantry, but it doesn't follow that Jesus is a warrior simply because he and the King of Babylon were both called the morning star. Of course, if Christians want Jesus to be a warrior, then they can focus on passages that seem to support the notion (like Matthew 10:34), and simply depict him as such, like this mosaic.

Now, all that said, I do take the point that Azor Ahai may indeed represent both phases of the Venus myth. The Red Priests regard him as a falling-then-rising figure like Jesus, yet there are clues (most notably the similarities between AA and the Bloodstone Emperor) that the guy who is credited with ending the Long Night also brought it all on. This "full cycle" interpretation of the Venus myth does seem to be in keeping with GRRM's ambivalence about greatness and heroism, and so I think the idea has some promise.

 

No it doesn't to just say this morning star and that one are the same, but the Greeks still did it and so did others. Look up Zeus Ammon. People now days dissociate things, but the ancients especially in Greece, did not always. This is why im not even touching the other long rant of disassociation. The Greeks did not think that and using that same logic, you can indeed create a large story. When the greeks hear of a "Morning Star" in another culture, they assumed it was the one and the same. Like Baal Hadad being linked with Zeus. Both usurped the gods above them and caused a flood and did so with 2 brothers. Odin is the same. 

It is all with a GRRM twist so none of it is a one for one direct comparison, so I completely agree with your last statement a lot. Just like Zeus is a "Fertility God", and as comparable to Odin, the One Eyed God. Is also then comparable to Bran the Blessed Crow of Welsh mythology. Forming both the Garth the Green myth and the Bran the Broken character. Zeus is also a shapeshifter appearing as a ray of light and other things. 

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3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No it doesn't to just say this morning star and that one are the same, but the Greeks still did it and so did others. Look up Zeus Ammon. People now days dissociate things, but the ancients especially in Greece, did not always. This is why im not even touching the other long rant of disassociation. The Greeks did not think that and using that same logic, you can indeed create a large story. When the greeks hear of a "Morning Star" in another culture, they assumed it was the one and the same. Like Baal Hadad being linked with Zeus. Both usurped the gods above them and caused a flood and did so with 2 brothers. Odin is the same. 

It is all with a GRRM twist so none of it is a one for one direct comparison, so I completely agree with your last statement a lot. Just like Zeus is a "Fertility God", and as comparable to Odin, the One Eyed God. Is also then comparable to Bran the Blessed Crow of Welsh mythology. Forming both the Garth the Green myth and the Bran the Broken character. Zeus is also a shapeshifter appearing as a ray of light and other things. 

Yes, I am familiar with syncretism, and I do find it interesting. While I do think that an argument can be made for shared commonalities across cultures, it is also true that an important catalyst for syncretism was the reality of expanding empires, and the need to assimilate and forge shared truths across cultures. It's thus very hard to disentangle parallels that existed before two cultures began to mingle (i.e., original commonalities) with the various convergences that arose as a result of assimilation.

Of course, for the most ardently pro-syncretic thinkers (not just Greeks, but a lot of people we now regard as practitioners of the Western Hermetic tradition) such considerations were irrelevant, what mattered to them were the synchronicities and deeper patterns across stories. To some extent, they have a point, because the practical value of any myth is to convey a social, moral, philosophical, or emotional truth. It's not to get facts right.

But, a context-specific understanding of how myths and their interpretations evolve across region and over time is also important and quite valuable. A purely syncretic approach often leads to flattened and overly broad generalities, and sometimes risks wanton appropriation of symbols with no respect or regard for the original intention. A context-specific approach will give much more depth and rich detail. However, if there are real connections to be made across cultures, this approach is not well-equipped to highlight them. I would recommend a balanced approach, one that tries to factor in both considerations.

More importantly, how relevant are these approaches to how GRRM writes his stories and his supporting world-building details? Clearly he's had at least a basic education in myths, but he has also denied paying much attention to them in recent decades. And Elio has warned fans of relying too much on world mythology.

I think it's fine to do so, as long as we are humble enough to know that we risk lodging our heads up our own asses when we do it. We stare into the fires hoping for a vision that will guide us forward, and sometimes we do see something in the flames, but what we make of it is almost always our own invention, serving and revealing our personal motivations.

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Look up Zeus Ammon.

Ah, here is a great example of how syncretism can lead into a mess. It is true that Zeus has been associated with Baal and Ammon among some communities, but it's also true that Kronos, Zeus' father, has been associated with Baal and Ammon! Check out the depiction of Saturn on the 15th century Mantegna card deck: he has the "Ammonite" ram's horn. Not only that, but by the Renaissance, Kronos was also conflated with Chronos, and both were depicted as eating babies.

So is Zeus the same archetype as his father, the giant Kronos? And is Kronos the same deity as the god of time? The answer is: sometimes, given that culture bleeds and mutates in strange ways, and communities find rhymes in all kind of things, even though sometimes the rhymes are forced. :)

 

Edited by Phylum of Alexandria
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19 hours ago, Thandros said:

Great idea the andals were always in Westeros. One problem we have at least one account of Andals that you can't exactly disprove because of poor records. Qarlon the Great who led an attack on Norvos and provoked Valyrian retribution. Also if the Andals where never in Essos where does Andalos get it's name from.

It would be a great theory if it held the slightest bit of evidence that would actually allow it to exist.

The Andals existed in Essos, but the historical claims made in Westeros about historical continuity from Essos to Westeros is false: the Faith, knighthood, tourneys, etc., that all emerged in Westeros over time. 

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17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well an invasion could have happened the other direction. I still feel the Andals came from Essos and are stated as having come from the same general area as the first men. Being possibly one of the three tribes conquered by Huzhor Amai. Suggesting they began around the same time.

Andals are so named for the Vandals and GRRM has already said as much. The Vandals were viking invaders from the main land along with Saxons and Jutes. All invaded England using long ships. The Vikings of later ages like the Danes used similar long ships. 

But there are no hints of long ship culture in Essos. Where we have long ships is actually on the west coast of Westeros. Andals existed in Essos, but the historical claims tying the "Andals" of Westeros to them are extremely dubious; as in, they may be descendants of those who once lived in Essos, but the written history does not fit whatsoever with what we know of Essos vs Westeros, it all only makes sense if it was written about events and people in Westeros.

Edited by Egged
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8 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Ah, here is a great example of how syncretism can lead into a mess. It is true that Zeus has been associated with Baal and Ammon among some communities, but it's also true that Kronos, Zeus' father, has been associated with Baal and Ammon! Check out the depiction of Saturn on the 15th century Mantegna card deck: he has the "Ammonite" ram's horn. Not only that, but by the Renaissance, Kronos was also conflated with Chronos, and both were depicted as eating babies.

So is Zeus the same archetype as his father, the giant Kronos? And is Kronos the same deity as the god of time? The answer is: sometimes, given that culture bleeds and mutates in strange ways, and communities find rhymes in all kind of things, even though sometimes the rhymes are forced. :)

 

Well like I said, I don't think he's doing a one for one comparison and if anything is only using it as a lose backbone for his own myths. I wouldn't hold anything in the books as a direct comparison to the War of Roses or other myths, or even Hp Love Craft. Though I do think he uses them to his own effect consistent with the broader myth most people are familiar with. 

That was a little bit of a derailment convo though and why I tried to end it. Wasnt' that im upset with Thandros disagreeing or his view, but it wasn't a direct comparison and just a looses example of how the myth and history in Asoiaf does share a lot of inspiration as GRRM has said himself as quoted in the Interview. It though isn't important to my OP post though and don't want to get bogged down in it. Its a long topic I can go deep into using linguistic and other sources to show certain things are actually linked simply due to human migration and the Ice Ages pushing back migrations, etc. There was a lot of cultural exchange in the ancient days as proven with the Phoenicians sailing to England and the Gaul's being the Galatians of the Bible. Some of this trade being driven by tin resources in England needed to make Bronze weapons as Babylon blocked trade and access. 

Christianity and Judaism evolved from Polytheistic religions and were not always monotheistic. 

This though was just an example of how the Andals are similar to the long Viking invasions of England, along with how Religion can spread and evolve in the real world. Being reflected in the Faith of the Seven and likely the Church of Starry Wisdom, along with the Faith of Rhllor. As Zoroastrianism may have inspired the Jews who were freed by the Persians from Babylon. Or it was Akhenaten of Egypt. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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Fyi, just because im suggesting House Hoare took Old Town, does not mean that they took the Hightower on Battle Isle. These are not the same things. They list the Arbor and the Citadel on their sigil, not the Hightower. 

This is easy enough, as all you have to do is surround the Hightower and lay siege to them. Mean while, the rest of the City, the Arbor, and the Citadel are yours for the taking. 

It is a contested rule, as Euron's rule of the North is contested by House Stark and House Bolton. 

Just because the Iron born "Claim to rule all of Westeros" they clearly havn't taken the Vale, or Stormlands. The Crownlands though may have possibly taken as being a disputed area between the Riverlands and Stormlands. 

If the Hightowers have a Glass Candle on Battle Isle, then maybe they put the Ambitions in Aegon's mind. Or just simply communicated with him. We do know that Aegon visited his sept on Dragonstone before invading. Suggesting some sort of deeper tie between Old Town and the Targaryen's. 

 

 

 

Edit-           IF the Hightowers are under siege by the Iron Born, then that would explain why House Hightower didn't field an army along with House Gardener against the Dragons. Even if they did want to, they would be hemmed in and unable to. 

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14 hours ago, Thandros said:

The Stormlanders are the Anglo Saxons. Invited in to deal with a disturbance in Britain (Riverlands) aiding one side against the other and then refusing to leave and end up taking over.

Isn't that the Andals in the Vale near the Fingers? The Andals invited in by one House to fight against another and the Andals betraying both houses and invading.

 

To your point though, the Durrandon's may have already intermarried with the Andals at that point. 

 

So to be fair, we may both be right here.

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Isn't that the Andals in the Vale near the Fingers? The Andals invited in by one House to fight against another and the Andals betraying both houses and invading.

 

To your point though, the Durrandon's may have already intermarried with the Andals at that point. 

 

So to be fair, we may both be right here.

It is but it's hardly the only time an outside force has exploited local divisions to their own advantage. the conquistadors in Mexico and Peru had were similarly able to exploit local differences to their own advantage in taking over and Caeser also initially does in Gaul.

It's hardly uncommon scenario. Look hard enough and you can find it.

5 hours ago, Egged said:

The Andals existed in Essos, but the historical claims made in Westeros about historical continuity from Essos to Westeros is false: the Faith, knighthood, tourneys, etc., that all emerged in Westeros over time. 

Possibly but they were Andal ideas made by Andals who came over. Given the time involved saying anything is impossible but the faith in it's most basic form must predate the Andal invasion to a degree and emerged in Essos. Some of the other stuff may have emerged later in Andal culture but who can say.

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On 1/14/2022 at 6:35 PM, Egged said:

But there are no hints of long ship culture in Essos. Where we have long ships is actually on the west coast of Westeros. Andals existed in Essos, but the historical claims tying the "Andals" of Westeros to them are extremely dubious; as in, they may be descendants of those who once lived in Essos, but the written history does not fit whatsoever with what we know of Essos vs Westeros, it all only makes sense if it was written about events and people in Westeros.

I think the bigger point would be there are no Tourney's and Knights in Essos since they have no kingdom's to have Knights. You would think the Knightly chivalry would be greatest in Essos as it was greater in France than England. All the Knights we hear about are from Westeros. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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54 minutes ago, Thandros said:

It is but it's hardly the only time an outside force has exploited local divisions to their own advantage. the conquistadors in Mexico and Peru had were similarly able to exploit local differences to their own advantage in taking over and Caeser also initially does in Gaul.

It's hardly uncommon scenario. Look hard enough and you can find it.

Now your just deflecting cause you know Im right. We're talking about the Vikings and England. Not Caesar and the Gauls or Mexico and Peru. 

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50 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Now your just deflecting cause you know Im right. We're talking about the Vikings and England. Not Caesar and the Gauls or Mexico and Peru. 

I was simply pointing out outside forces exploiting internal divisions to take over is hardly uncommon. I'm not sure how that is deflection all of a sudden.

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On 1/15/2022 at 1:57 AM, Thandros said:

I was simply pointing out outside forces exploiting internal divisions to take over is hardly uncommon. I'm not sure how that is deflection all of a sudden.

Deflecting by switching to even less relevant examples to what we were talking about.

 

That being said. Lorath helps Validate the Andals and their invasion.

With Lorath being occupied from roughly 2536 to 1536 ( 1000 years roughly) and the scouring of Lorath with Qarlon the Great vs Valyria. Being empty the next 100 years till Valyrians who worship Boash take Lorath.

With only Andals possibly existing in Braavos as the only place in Essos left for them to hide. Braavos was founded at least around 500BC, revealing it existed around 400BC, and revealing itself around 100BC after the Doom when it was safe to.

Assuming Braavos was where Theon Stark attacked and ended the remaining Andals. This would end the Andal Invasions around 6-500BC (Roughly 1000 years ago). With the Andal Invasions beginning roughly around 3000 years ago and lasting for maybe 2000 years tops. 

This is as far back as the Andals could have been invading Westeros. Using both Westerosi accounts and accounts from Essos.

 

Dragonstone though was founded in 314BC, and has a Sept built into it. Showing an early tie between Valyrians and the Andals. At least the Andal Faith of the Seven. Which is odd.

Then the ships that carried the Targaryen's had their mast carved into the 7 and put in the Sept on Dragonstone. 

Then Aegon visited Old Town and his Sept before invading Westeros. 

Valyrian Steel entered Westeros between 200-100BC.

Though what ever drove the Targaryens, it seems they didn't want any one to ever create another Valyria or have dragons beside them. Making me wonder if they had any hand in the Doom, but that's a different subject. 

 

If we assume that Qhorwyn Hoare (109-45BC) was after Harrag and Qhored, then Harrag and Qhored would be roughly between 200BC to 100BC when the Valyrian Steel swords were entering Westeros.

I assume they were around this time, and after Harmund III and Hagon the Haertless. With Crakehall taking the Throne after, im guessing that Harrag and Qhored were a return to the Old Ways that Hagon had brought back. Hagon, and Harmund were literate since Harmund I was the first literate King. With Qhored taking Old Town and their sigil suggesting they took the Citadel too, it would be suggested that Qhored being able to read, wanted something there. Maybe books on dragons, idk. Maybe just the Glass Candles Euron possibly has. 

House Mormont can only be proven to have been on Bear Island around 200Bc when they got their Valyrian Steel sword though. Jorah is also called an Andal, not that its hard proof his house is Andal but its a possible sign.

 

Edit- Loron Greyjoy would also be sometime after Hagon the Heartless.

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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On 1/14/2022 at 6:35 PM, Egged said:

But there are no hints of long ship culture in Essos. Where we have long ships is actually on the west coast of Westeros. Andals existed in Essos, but the historical claims tying the "Andals" of Westeros to them are extremely dubious; as in, they may be descendants of those who once lived in Essos, but the written history does not fit whatsoever with what we know of Essos vs Westeros, it all only makes sense if it was written about events and people in Westeros.

 The Buildings of Pentos are square, and there are no Castles or Kingdoms that we hear about, nor any ruins that I recall. There are currently no Knights in Essos and no Tourney's. 

The Andals were said to be in Essos near Pentos, Braavos, and Lorath. With them trying to take Norvos, who called to Valyria to stop them causing the scouring of Lorath.

IF, the Andals were expanding from a base in Westeros, this would work with what we see in Essos. 

The only issue Im trying to figure out is the Round Towers of Westeros's old Castles. Yet, the Arryns built a square castle first, and the round one only after seeing the castle of Westeros. This though is an issue either way though. 

Though, many of the Castles with round towers have association with the Sea by location, except for what would seem, House Stark. Who did have a sea fleet and gargoyles on their round tower like Dragonstone has. Its possible the Starks were not able to pass the Neck when they invaded and had to invade at Sea Dragon Point where they first fought the Warg King (Blackwoods?) near the Wolfswood. 

  • Quote

    The Sea Tower rises from the outermost stack, which is sheer and crooked. It is the oldest part of the castle, round and tall. The base of the tower is white from centuries of salt spray, the upper stories are green with lichen, and the top is black with soot from nightfires. To get to the Sea Tower, one must cross three bridges, the last of which is made of rope. The tower's door is moldy grey wood with rusted iron studs. Twisting stairs lead to the damp and drafty solar of Lord Greyjoy, which is warmed by a brazier.[2][5] The kraken banner of House Greyjoy flies from an iron mast above the Sea Tower.[2]

 It maybe that the Andals started in Westeros as the Sea Faring people that the Hightowers come from and invaded Essos making their way for Valyria on some religious crusade to end the Dragons. Maybe Theon Stark wasn't fighting Andals, maybe he was the Invading Andals. IDK. This theory of yours still needs some fleshing out but I think it has potential. 

The Reach definitely seems to be where Knights and Tourney's come from and originated at though. Making the tales of Florian the Fool, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, the Rainbow Knight, and others likely true.

Round Towers seem to have originated in Westeros too.

 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

She found herself in a stone anteroom with four doors, one on each wall. With never a hesitation, she went to the door on her right and stepped through. The second room was a twin to the first. Again she turned to the right-hand door. When she pushed it open she faced yet another small antechamber with four doors. I am in the presence of sorcery.
The fourth room was oval rather than square and walled in worm-eaten wood in place of stone. Six passages led out from it in place of four. Dany chose the rightmost, and entered a long, dim, high-ceilinged hall. Along the right hand was a row of torches burning with a smoky orange light, but the only doors were to her left. Drogon unfolded wide black wings and beat the stale air. He flew twenty feet before thudding to an undignified crash. Dany strode after him.

 

 
 
 
Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I

"As Your Grace commands." Selmy bowed.
The Great Pyramid shouldered eight hundred feet into the sky, from its huge square base to the lofty apex where the queen kept her private chambers, surrounded by greenery and fragrant pools. As a cool blue dawn broke over the city, Dany walked out onto the terrace. To the west sunlight blazed off the golden domes of the Temple of the Graces, and etched deep shadows behind the stepped pyramids of the mighty. In some of those pyramids, the Sons of the Harpy are plotting new murders even now, and I am powerless to stop them.
 
Mean while, the only Rounded thing even close to a Tower in Essos listed in Dany's, Quentyn, or Barristan's chapters.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

Perhaps he had only that word, she thought, but it was one word more than she had known he had, and somehow it made her feel a little better. Drogo touched her hair lightly, sliding the silver-blond strands between his fingers and murmuring softly in Dothraki. Dany did not understand the words, yet there was warmth in the tone, a tenderness she had never expected from this man.
He put his finger under her chin and lifted her head, so she was looking up into his eyes. Drogo towered over her as he towered over everyone. Taking her lightly under the arms, he lifted her and seated her on a rounded rock beside the stream. Then he sat on the ground facing her, legs crossed beneath him, their faces finally at a height. "No," he said.
"Is that the only word you know?" she asked him.

 

 

 

 
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8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That being said. Lorath helps Validate the Andals and their invasion.

With Lorath being occupied from roughly 2536 to 1536 ( 1000 years roughly) and the scouring of Lorath with Qarlon the Great vs Valyria. Being empty the next 100 years till Valyrians who worship Boash take Lorath.

With only Andals possibly existing in Braavos as the only place in Essos left for them to hide. Braavos was founded at least around 500BC, revealing it existed around 400BC, and revealing itself around 100BC after the Doom when it was safe to.

Assuming Braavos was where Theon Stark attacked and ended the remaining Andals. This would end the Andal Invasions around 6-500BC (Roughly 1000 years ago). With the Andal Invasions beginning roughly around 3000 years ago and lasting for maybe 2000 years tops. 

This is as far back as the Andals could have been invading Westeros. Using both Westerosi accounts and accounts from Essos.

 

Dragonstone though was founded in 314BC, and has a Sept built into it. Showing an early tie between Valyrians and the Andals. At least the Andal Faith of the Seven. Which is odd.

Then the ships that carried the Targaryen's had their mast carved into the 7 and put in the Sept on Dragonstone. 

Then Aegon visited Old Town and his Sept before invading Westeros. 

Valyrian Steel entered Westeros between 200-100BC.

Though what ever drove the Targaryens, it seems they didn't want any one to ever create another Valyria or have dragons beside them. Making me wonder if they had any hand in the Doom, but that's a different subject. 

 

If we assume that Qhorwyn Hoare (109-45BC) was after Harrag and Qhored, then Harrag and Qhored would be roughly between 200BC to 100BC when the Valyrian Steel swords were entering Westeros.

I assume they were around this time, and after Harmund III and Hagon the Haertless. With Crakehall taking the Throne after, im guessing that Harrag and Qhored were a return to the Old Ways that Hagon had brought back. Hagon, and Harmund were literate since Harmund I was the first literate King. With Qhored taking Old Town and their sigil suggesting they took the Citadel too, it would be suggested that Qhored being able to read, wanted something there. Maybe books on dragons, idk. Maybe just the Glass Candles Euron possibly has. 

House Mormont can only be proven to have been on Bear Island around 200Bc when they got their Valyrian Steel sword though. Jorah is also called an Andal, not that its hard proof his house is Andal but its a possible sign.

 

Edit- Loron Greyjoy would also be sometime after Hagon the Heartless.

The Thing with Qarlon the Great is he must lie a little earlier than you say. Lorath was unoccupied for more than a century so it's more likely that the Andal occupation ended around maybe 1800 BAC or even earlier but certainly less than a thousand years before 1436. IT certainly works with the beginngings as early as maybe 3000BAC with the earliest Andals pulled across by promises of land and wealth while the last few were pushed across by fear of the Valyrians perhaps as late as 1500BAC but I doubt any serious groups of Andals cross after this.

I agree it's possible some Essossi Andals survived around the site of Braavos after the end of the Andal invasion I don't think they were destroyed as late as you say. Theon Stark can't be as late you claim. His invasion of the Three Sisters and the Fingers would probably place him during the war between the Waters so closer to 2000 BAC-1000 BAC if you assume later dates for the War between the Waters. Another thing to note is at least some Essossi Andals were integrated into Pentos to some to give the Pentosi a measure of Andal blood so at least some must have linger on or around the site of Pentos. Most other Essossi Andals presumably either integrated into Braavos or lingered in the hills of western Andalos and diminished into nothingness.

While I think your right about the Valyrian Steel since most swords with dates go back to that era. The thing about the Sept of Dragonstone is that it probably only goes back to the Targaryen arrival. The statues of the seven are noted by Davos to be supposedly carved from the masts of the ships that brought the Targaryen's to Dragonstone. The sept was either built or organised only after they arrived perhaps as an attempt to integrate better into Westerosi society they intended to connect with.

Your Ironborn stuff contains several problems for one the dates you gave Qhorwyn Hoare are the last possible dates for his son Harwyn Hoare who probably actually ruled earlier roughly 110BAC to 70BAC assuming his son had a reign of twenty to thirty years. The actually order of Ironborn kings is definitely a very messy topic. Kings who must have ruled after the end of the Kingsmoot are claimed to have been selected by one. I half suspect the entire Iron Island history section of AWOIAF is little more than an unordered collection of stories like Herodotus' dealing with the history of Egyptian pharaohs.

Qhored I is about the only early Ironborn king we can even guess a date assuming both the tales of his power and his destruction of the Justman's is true (assuming their aren't two Qhored's with different dates if so these dates would be for the later Qhored) can't date much later than around 1000BAC unless the Teague's and other intermittent dynasts of the Riverlands lasted a lot longer than is otherwise said. With this said I'd put Harrag Hoare and Ravos before Qhored with them representing an early return of Ironborn power before Qhored briefly exert genuine authority over much of the west coast before the defeat of his successors drove the Hoares to engage in trade and friendly dealings with the Greenlanders leading to Harmund and Hagon. Of course it also possible Qhored Hoare was the later king and an earlier Qhored GreyIron or Blacktyde was the original one with stories of the two getting merged into one.

Either way the Ironborn history is a mess and we can't properly make heads or tales of it. Someone's either made a mistake or it wasn't properly thought through somewhere. I doubt Qhored was looking for anything in the Citadel archives as it's an early Qhored I doubt the Citadel would even exist and even a later one I doubt would be hunting for knowledge of dragons or something like that.

As for the Mormonts I'm inclined to believe they are old and that the Northern Conquest of Bear Island originally took place during the pre Andal invasion era of Ironborn kings since It only seems reasonable a Greyjoy would be King during the Kingsmoot era. As for Jorah Mormont being called an Andal he's only done so by Dothraki who don't or can't distinguish between the different ethnic groups of Westeros so call them all Andals.

 

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Buildings of Pentos are square, and there are no Castles or Kingdoms that we hear about, nor any ruins that I recall. There are currently no Knights in Essos and no Tourney's. 

The Andals were said to be in Essos near Pentos, Braavos, and Lorath. With them trying to take Norvos, who called to Valyria to stop them causing the scouring of Lorath.

IF, the Andals were expanding from a base in Westeros, this would work with what we see in Essos. 

The only issue Im trying to figure out is the Round Towers of Westeros's old Castles. Yet, the Arryns built a square castle first, and the round one only after seeing the castle of Westeros. This though is an issue either way though. 

Though, many of the Castles with round towers have association with the Sea by location, except for what would seem, House Stark. Who did have a sea fleet and gargoyles on their round tower like Dragonstone has. Its possible the Starks were not able to pass the Neck when they invaded and had to invade at Sea Dragon Point where they first fought the Warg King (Blackwoods?) near the Wolfswood. 

 It maybe that the Andals started in Westeros as the Sea Faring people that the Hightowers come from and invaded Essos making their way for Valyria on some religious crusade to end the Dragons. Maybe Theon Stark wasn't fighting Andals, maybe he was the Invading Andals. IDK. This theory of yours still needs some fleshing out but I think it has potential. 

The Reach definitely seems to be where Knights and Tourney's come from and originated at though. Making the tales of Florian the Fool, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, the Rainbow Knight, and others likely true.

Round Towers seem to have originated in Westeros too.

One thing to consider is that I don't believe we ever get any good descriptions of the fortifications of any Essossi Cities. Round towers and such are better for defence but trickier and more expensive to actually build. Simple practicality would dictate that most buildings are built square with only towers built for defence being round except if whoever was building them had artistic vision in mind.

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11 hours ago, Thandros said:

The Thing with Qarlon the Great is he must lie a little earlier than you say. Lorath was unoccupied for more than a century so it's more likely that the Andal occupation ended around maybe 1800 BAC or even earlier but certainly less than a thousand years before 1436. IT certainly works with the beginngings as early as maybe 3000BAC with the earliest Andals pulled across by promises of land and wealth while the last few were pushed across by fear of the Valyrians perhaps as late as 1500BAC but I doubt any serious groups of Andals cross after this.

I agree it's possible some Essossi Andals survived around the site of Braavos after the end of the Andal invasion I don't think they were destroyed as late as you say. Theon Stark can't be as late you claim. His invasion of the Three Sisters and the Fingers would probably place him during the war between the Waters so closer to 2000 BAC-1000 BAC if you assume later dates for the War between the Waters. Another thing to note is at least some Essossi Andals were integrated into Pentos to some to give the Pentosi a measure of Andal blood so at least some must have linger on or around the site of Pentos. Most other Essossi Andals presumably either integrated into Braavos or lingered in the hills of western Andalos and diminished into nothingness.

While I think your right about the Valyrian Steel since most swords with dates go back to that era. The thing about the Sept of Dragonstone is that it probably only goes back to the Targaryen arrival. The statues of the seven are noted by Davos to be supposedly carved from the masts of the ships that brought the Targaryen's to Dragonstone. The sept was either built or organised only after they arrived perhaps as an attempt to integrate better into Westerosi society they intended to connect with.

Your Ironborn stuff contains several problems for one the dates you gave Qhorwyn Hoare are the last possible dates for his son Harwyn Hoare who probably actually ruled earlier roughly 110BAC to 70BAC assuming his son had a reign of twenty to thirty years. The actually order of Ironborn kings is definitely a very messy topic. Kings who must have ruled after the end of the Kingsmoot are claimed to have been selected by one. I half suspect the entire Iron Island history section of AWOIAF is little more than an unordered collection of stories like Herodotus' dealing with the history of Egyptian pharaohs.

Qhored I is about the only early Ironborn king we can even guess a date assuming both the tales of his power and his destruction of the Justman's is true (assuming their aren't two Qhored's with different dates if so these dates would be for the later Qhored) can't date much later than around 1000BAC unless the Teague's and other intermittent dynasts of the Riverlands lasted a lot longer than is otherwise said. With this said I'd put Harrag Hoare and Ravos before Qhored with them representing an early return of Ironborn power before Qhored briefly exert genuine authority over much of the west coast before the defeat of his successors drove the Hoares to engage in trade and friendly dealings with the Greenlanders leading to Harmund and Hagon. Of course it also possible Qhored Hoare was the later king and an earlier Qhored GreyIron or Blacktyde was the original one with stories of the two getting merged into one.

Either way the Ironborn history is a mess and we can't properly make heads or tales of it. Someone's either made a mistake or it wasn't properly thought through somewhere. I doubt Qhored was looking for anything in the Citadel archives as it's an early Qhored I doubt the Citadel would even exist and even a later one I doubt would be hunting for knowledge of dragons or something like that.

As for the Mormonts I'm inclined to believe they are old and that the Northern Conquest of Bear Island originally took place during the pre Andal invasion era of Ironborn kings since It only seems reasonable a Greyjoy would be King during the Kingsmoot era. As for Jorah Mormont being called an Andal he's only done so by Dothraki who don't or can't distinguish between the different ethnic groups of Westeros so call them all Andals.

 

One thing to consider is that I don't believe we ever get any good descriptions of the fortifications of any Essossi Cities. Round towers and such are better for defence but trickier and more expensive to actually build. Simple practicality would dictate that most buildings are built square with only towers built for defence being round except if whoever was building them had artistic vision in mind.

Well the Iron Born history isn't to be trusted. Which is my point. They were illiterate till Harmund I Hoare sometime after the Andal Invasion. So any history before then is questionable at best. 

Plus, they possibly took the Citadel and had access to forge the records

Consider this. There have been 111 Kings of the Iron Isles, yet there are supposedly 998 L.C's of the Nights Watch (Another group with a dubious history. One tied to the Night Fort for most its history.).

In 2000 years there have been around 260 popes in Rome. 

So either the Iron Born are missing a lottttt of kings from their list. (Which if they're illiterate, might make sense). Or, the Night's Watch list is misunderstood or wrong. With it being possible that each castle had its own L.C. With 19 Castle on the Wall, that would cut the years by a lot.

 

That being said, we are pointed to the Iron Born hiding stuff and being closer to the Andals than alluded. 

Hugor of the Hill has 44 sons and is an Andal mythic hero and founder.

Nagga's Hill on Old Wyk has 44 Ribs or Weirwoods that were chopped down. With a legend of the Grey King slaying the demon tree Ygg. Many believing these are not dead trees, but rather, carved weirwoods forming the Haul of an Overturned ship. 

High Heart has 31 chopped down Weirwoods.

 

The Iron Isles have 44 Islands total. With 31 in the Main Grouping of which 7 are the largest, then 13 extra near Lonely Isle.

 

Erreg the KinSlayer attacked HighHeart and cut down these trees. He was supposedly an Andal who fought the Cotf (though most Maesters in True History would have us believe the Cotf were gone by then)

Errege is Latin for King. So Maester Perestan was right in his A consideration of History. Erreg is just a title.

 

Quote

 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Torgon_Greyiron  Erreg the Kin Slayer is likely Torgon GreyIron the Later Comer who slew his brother for hiding the Kingsmoot from him.

House GreyIron are Andals, before House Hoare who are also Andal.

This suggest that the Iron Born are who attacked HighHeart, possibly built a giant ship from the Trees, and are the Andals fighting the First Men.

I would think Tristifer IV who died against 7 Andal Kings, is likely the King who fought for Highheart against Erreg the Kin Slayer (Torgon the Later Comer GreyIron). With the 7 Andal Kings being Rock Kings from the 7 Iron Islands.

The 13 Islands near Lonely Light, point to the Night's King who was L.C of the Watch for 13 years.

With 13 being carved into the Weirwood at Harrenhal, built by Harren the Black Hoare whose brother was L.C. of the Watch, ruling from the Night Fort. 

With the Nightfort having the secret Weirwood door for sacrificing children, and the Andals/Iron born breaking the Pact of the First Men and driving back the Children of the Forest beyond the Wall. It would make a lot of sense that Harren's brother is at the Wall, while Harren is holding down the Riverlands. They are holding back the CotF from what it looks like.

 

The Oldest part of Pyke castle is a Round Tower. 

 

If the Iron Born were the first Andals, and they broke the Pact, then it would stand to reason they would want to hide this fact. Giving motivation to take the Citadel as House Hoare did.

The Oldest part of the Citadel is a castle said to be a pirates den originally.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Isle_of_Ravens

 

It may be that the foundation of the Citadel is somehow tied to the Iron born as the Hightowers are said to be a Sea Faring people. Apparently not one of the Good Brothers.

 

Edit- Erreg was supposedly acting for a River King against his rival. Suggesting this is House Blackwood and House Bracken. Who usurped the other either 1000 years before the Andals, or 500 years before according to Hoster Blackwood

 

 

Durran the Young and his brother Erich the Kin Slayer is another possible candidate, but the Durrandon's weren't involved in the Riverlands that early and were dealing with Dorne, as Durran fought Yoren Yronwood and Wylla of Wyl.

Torgon GreyIron was sailing up the Mander which suggest the Iron Born were were powerful at the time and Shield Islands were not guarded. Torgon seemed the best candidate 

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