Thandros Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: Well the Iron Born history isn't to be trusted. Which is my point. They were illiterate till Harmund I Hoare sometime after the Andal Invasion. So any history before then is questionable at best. Plus, they possibly took the Citadel and had access to forge the records Consider this. There have been 111 Kings of the Iron Isles, yet there are supposedly 998 L.C's of the Nights Watch (Another group with a dubious history. One tied to the Night Fort for most its history.). In 2000 years there have been around 260 popes in Rome. So either the Iron Born are missing a lottttt of kings from their list. (Which if they're illiterate, might make sense). Or, the Night's Watch list is misunderstood or wrong. With it being possible that each castle had its own L.C. With 19 Castle on the Wall, that would cut the years by a lot. One possibility is that different kings have merged to together over time defined only by their stories. Kings with the same name would end up looking very similar particularly if their stories lack distinguishing marks to tell them apart.Also do you think the Ironborn universally noted as unintellectual would have the capacity to organise the forgery of thousands of records in the citadel in such a way that no would be able to ever tell the differences and then have those changes applied to records of the Ironborn kept elsewhere. Westeros has a fair degree of the centralisation of knowledge but I don't think it's so extreme that even the Ironborn could falsify a huge amount of history. With the Night's Watch at least you could easily have several in a year without problems assuming elections are held quickly and given the nature of the job you easily expect to lose Lord Commanders fairly routinely and remember the History of the Nihgt's Watch goes back 8000 years or so plenty of time to have 998 Lord Commanders and Samwell finds some very old lists listing only 600 or Lord Commanders so they have records detailing their Lord Commanders going back quite some time at the very least. 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: That being said, we are pointed to the Iron Born hiding stuff and being closer to the Andals than alluded. Hugor of the Hill has 44 sons and is an Andal mythic hero and founder. Nagga's Hill on Old Wyk has 44 Ribs or Weirwoods that were chopped down. With a legend of the Grey King slaying the demon tree Ygg. Many believing these are not dead trees, but rather, carved weirwoods forming the Haul of an Overturned ship. High Heart has 31 chopped down Weirwoods. The Iron Isles have 44 Islands total. With 31 in the Main Grouping of which 7 are the largest, then 13 extra near Lonely Isle. Erreg the KinSlayer attacked HighHeart and cut down these trees. He was supposedly an Andal who fought the Cotf (though most Maesters in True History would have us believe the Cotf were gone by then) Errege is Latin for King. So Maester Perestan was right in his A consideration of History. Erreg is just a title. Errege is King in Basque not Latin though it is apparently derives from Latin (which if true would be a very interesting thing to try and understand about very early basque culture and their organisation). The numbers thing is probably another coincidence. It should also be noted while Lonely light and it's rocks are grouped with the Iron Islands in every sense they are unconnected. They're eight days sail away. That's no small distance so far beyond that they will probably not show up on most maps at all. 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Torgon_Greyiron Erreg the Kin Slayer is likely Torgon GreyIron the Later Comer who slew his brother for hiding the Kingsmoot from him. House GreyIron are Andals, before House Hoare who are also Andal. This suggest that the Iron Born are who attacked HighHeart, possibly built a giant ship from the Trees, and are the Andals fighting the First Men. I would think Tristifer IV who died against 7 Andal Kings, is likely the King who fought for Highheart against Erreg the Kin Slayer (Torgon the Later Comer GreyIron). With the 7 Andal Kings being Rock Kings from the 7 Iron Islands. The 13 Islands near Lonely Light, point to the Night's King who was L.C of the Watch for 13 years. With 13 being carved into the Weirwood at Harrenhal, built by Harren the Black Hoare whose brother was L.C. of the Watch, ruling from the Night Fort. With the Nightfort having the secret Weirwood door for sacrificing children, and the Andals/Iron born breaking the Pact of the First Men and driving back the Children of the Forest beyond the Wall. It would make a lot of sense that Harren's brother is at the Wall, while Harren is holding down the Riverlands. They are holding back the CotF from what it looks like. Ummm no. That is all rubbish. Remember this detail. The Greyirons were wipped out by the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands (The Hoares do have some andal blood some marrying Andal wives to strengthen their position). Also Torgon Greyiron comes at least a thousand years prior to the end of House Greyiron and the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands involving timelines and tales of a some what dubious note. At the very least he comes from teh Kingsmoot era which is the older section of Ironborn history and probably pre Andal which makes this all highyl unlikely at best. Also the Black Gate isn't for sacrificing children. It's likely an old secret way across the wall that can only be used by the Watchmen to come and go in relative security for leading sorties or scouting their enemies undetected. Harren's brother and Harren have no evidence of coordination and it's more likely Harren forced his brother into the Night's Watch to secure his position. 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: The Oldest part of Pyke castle is a Round Tower. If the Iron Born were the first Andals, and they broke the Pact, then it would stand to reason they would want to hide this fact. Giving motivation to take the Citadel as House Hoare did. The Oldest part of the Citadel is a castle said to be a pirates den originally. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Isle_of_Ravens It may be that the foundation of the Citadel is somehow tied to the Iron born as the Hightowers are said to be a Sea Faring people. Apparently not one of the Good Brothers. Edit- Erreg was supposedly acting for a River King against his rival. Suggesting this is House Blackwood and House Bracken. Who usurped the other either 1000 years before the Andals, or 500 years before according to Hoster Blackwood So is Winterfell's oldest tower and no one suggests they are secret Andals. Given the location and state of Pyke it probably losses Towers at a routine basis as their stack are eroded away by the sea. it's probably younger than the First Keep in Winterfell by a considerable margin. The island was a pirate den but nothing to suggest the builds were. Likely the pirates were Ironborn when they held Oldtown in the distant past. I should note the settlement is said to have originally been found by a sea faring people though given the suggestions they may not have travelled the sea in any conventional means if the deep ones are behind it like the Seastone chair and the Toad stone among others. It certainly gives some creepy edge to the Ironborn worship of the drowned god but I don't think it says much about the Hightowers themselves or whatever connections they have. They may have arrived and taken over the original oldtown some time after it's founding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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