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Do you think that weirwood can really kill a dragon ? Also can skinchangers possess dragons ?


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We know that Weirwood trees have many mystical qualities with them having the ability to see things in the past, the present and the future at the same time hence how the Three-Eyed Crow is able to read the future and the past, that their paste help greenseers to develop their abilities, that their wood is incredibly strong and never rot and resist at least normal fire, and that arrows made of weirwood have seemingly mystical accuracy and piercing power as seen with Bloodraven and his archers companions. 

Brandon Snow also believed that arrows made of weirwood would allow him to kill dragons and proposed his half-brother Torrhen Stark to allow him to infiltrate Aegon the Conqueror's camp in the night so he could slay Aegon and his sisters' dragons, though Torrhen evidently decided that the risk was too high and to rather bend the knee to Aegon to save his countrymen.

But do you think that Brandon's idea was a good one, and that arrows or other weapons made from weirwood can truly injure and kill dragons ? 

If yes could it be because of weirwood's durability or because of the trees' magical properties working on the dragons' own magic ?

Also to continue on Old Gods and Children of the Forest's magic, do you think that wargs and other skinchangers can transfer their mind into a dragon and take control of it like they can do with other animals, weak-minded humans and weirwood trees ? Could one or several particularly skilled skinchangers turn the tides against dragons ?

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I think all things weirwood involve some kind of magic. Lets assume weirwoods originate from ice magic and dragons originate from fire magic. It is possible that weirwood arrows could kill dragons, ice magic developed a way to combat fire magic. As for warging dragons, I think it is possible. Dragons are supposed to be intelligent, but they are definitely not as evolved as humans.

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Skinchangers won't be able to stay inside dragons any useful length of time because the heat/fire will force them out. It will be the same as what happened to Varamyr inside the eagle when Melisandre microwaved him from within and forced him out.

To stay in a dragon a person's soul must become fire and that requires they die. So a dragon can be second lifed but not effectively skinchanged, it's a one way passage from which they can never return back to their human body. Setting a soul on fire is what Euron's horn does, and you can see through his dialogue with Vic that Euron has come to this realisation after thinking on what happened to Cragorn when he blew the horn. Euron was hoping to be able to skinchange a dragon, but he's realised that he must die for his soul to enter inside a dragon and that it'd be a permanent second life - if he can do it.

I don't know with weirwood arrows, maybe the trick is that the COTF Greenseerrs/skinchangers are able to direct weirwood arrows in flight, and so can seek out soft spots like a dragon's eye.

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Skinchangers won't be able to stay inside dragons any useful length of time because the heat/fire will force them out. It will be the same as what happened to Varamyr inside the eagle when Melisandre microwaved him from within and forced him out.

That was because Melisandre used magic to force Varamyr out. If that kind of magic is not involved and the dragon becomes acclimated to being warged, it could be possible to for a skinchanger to stay inside a dragon.

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

That was because Melisandre used magic to force Varamyr out. If that kind of magic is not involved and the dragon becomes acclimated to being warged, it could be possible to for a skinchanger to stay inside a dragon.

Yes it was because of Mel's magic, and it was an eagle instead of a dragon. A dragon - fire made flesh, will innately burn within as Mel caused the eagle to do. There will be no acclimatisation, that scene exists to demonstrate what will occur when a skinchanger does attempt to skinchange a dragon.

A dragon will not be able to be skinchanged in a useful way due to this, it will require one die and their soul to be set alight. Euron's arc is currently wading through this dilemma. No mortal man may sound me and live, fire for blood, blood for fire. One may never know if they can fly unless they leap from a great tower. Cragorn is the demonstration of what happens when the soul is set alight, complete with chest tattoo symbolism.

It will be the same with fish/sea life, in that a human may be able to skinchange a whale but if they stay within it they're going to drown. Their soul will need to become waterborne, that is be drowned.

Edited by chrisdaw
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47 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes it was because of Mel's magic, and it was an eagle instead of a dragon. A dragon - fire made flesh, will innately burn within as Mel caused the eagle to do. There will be no acclimatisation, that scene exists to demonstrate what will occur when a skinchanger does attempt to skinchange a dragon.

We don't know this for sure. 

Also, we don't know how dragons bond with their riders. Surely there is some magic involved. Just as a dragon can bond with a rider, it is possible a dragon could accept a skinchanger.

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

We don't know this for sure. 

Also, we don't know how dragons bond with their riders. Surely there is some magic involved. Just as a dragon can bond with a rider, it is possible a dragon could accept a skinchanger.

No we don't know this for sure and won't until the text is ready to reveal it. It'll be through child sacrifice and second lifing that the blood bond required for dragon riding is initially established, we have the blueprint in the text, Dany and Drogo conceived  Rhaego, Rhaego died, his heart burning out his chest no less, Drogo lost his soul, Drogon was the result and Dany rides it. 

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I assume that skinchangers cannot take over dragons. But they can block connection between dragonlord and his/her dragon and make dragons hostile to everybody.

In fact that is one possibility what happened at Hardhome. Or dragonlords tried to raid that place but local skinchangers tried to take over their dragons and most people there were killed by angry dragons. That would explain why Valyrian Empire did not tried to conquer Westeros. After all trying to conquer continent where they could lose their dragons bc those become mad and hostile would have been very bad idea for dragonlords.

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11 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that skinchangers cannot take over dragons. But they can block connection between dragonlord and his/her dragon and make dragons hostile to everybody.

In fact that is one possibility what happened at Hardhome. Or dragonlords tried to raid that place but local skinchangers tried to take over their dragons and most people there were killed by angry dragons. That would explain why Valyrian Empire did not tried to conquer Westeros. After all trying to conquer continent where they could lose their dragons bc those become mad and hostile would have been very bad idea for dragonlords.

i believe that skinchangers freaked the valyrians out enough to avoid westeros. valyrians pretty much conquered most of the known world except westeros. westeros was right there for the taking. why would the valyrians ignore westeros, if not because they cudnt trust their weapons of mass destruction there?

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9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

No we don't know this for sure and won't until the text is ready to reveal it. It'll be through child sacrifice and second lifing that the blood bond required for dragon riding is initially established, we have the blueprint in the text, Dany and Drogo conceived  Rhaego, Rhaego died, his heart burning out his chest no less, Drogo lost his soul, Drogon was the result and Dany rides it. 

This is probably off topic, but I think Mirri maz dur was somehow unknowingly responsible for the dragons hatching more than the human sacrifice. How many times does the sacrifice have to happen for the bonding to happen? Shouldn't whatever the valyrians did to bond with dragons originally hold true till present day?

7 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that skinchangers cannot take over dragons. But they can block connection between dragonlord and his/her dragon and make dragons hostile to everybody.

Assuming the bond between dragon and rider involves magic, I think it would be possible for 'skinchanging magic' to somehow take control of a dragon, if the skinchanger strong/skilled enough.

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Maybe? I think that it's more likely that a weirwood arrow or whatever would make a dragon more susceptible to skinchanging, just because that power seems closer linked to weirwoods, or maybe the greenseer can better see the archer or something like that if they use a weirwood arrow? Just guessing though. I know we've seen a few weirwood weapons in the series but I can't recall who had them.  I don't know how far to take the fire vs ice dichotomy, I think that assuming that a weirwood arrow would be some sort of dragonbane may be taking it too far.

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Dragons can be injured or killed by regular weapons, remember what happened to Drogon in ADWD and how Meraxes ended up. But it would have been very difficult, even impossible for Brandon to get close enough and kill the dragons without being caught by Aegon's warriors or burned alive by these same dragons.

As for skinchanging into a dragon, a regular skinchanger won't be able to do that, the dragon will struggle and force them out, but a skinchanger with Targaryen blood (Bloodraven and most likely Jon) might be able to achieve it.

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