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When and how will the Stark children go back home ?


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When and through which circumstances do you think that Bran, Arya, Sansa and Rickon will go back to the North (or the mainland North in Rickon's case as he's currently on the northern island of Skagos) and to Winterfell ? 

How do you imagine Davos' journey to find Rickon on Skagos and brings him back to the main North, how do you expect him to convince Rickon, Osha and the Skagosi to take Rickon with him ? 

What will be the reasons that will cause Bran to leave the cave of the Three-Eyed Crow and the Children of the Forest, and when ? 

Same for Arya, what will cause her to leave Braavos and the Faceless Men and to go back to Westeros and to the North ?

Same question for Sansa, how and when do you see her leaving the Vale and going back north, and with who ? 

In what order do you think that the Stark kids will return North ?

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1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

When and through which circumstances do you think that Bran, Arya, Sansa and Rickon will go back to the North (or the mainland North in Rickon's case as he's currently on the northern island of Skagos) and to Winterfell ? 

Perhaps they won't make it back home. 

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

How do you imagine Davos' journey to find Rickon on Skagos and brings him back to the main North, how do you expect him to convince Rickon, Osha and the Skagosi to take Rickon with him ? 

What will be the reasons that will cause Bran to leave the cave of the Three-Eyed Crow and the Children of the Forest, and when ? 

I don't think he will ever physically leave that cave.  Bran will use his seeing eye to do this traveling for him.  He will communicate with the other wolves through their dreams. 

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Same for Arya, what will cause her to leave Braavos and the Faceless Men and to go back to Westeros and to the North ?

She will hear something about Jon's execution. 

 

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On 1/16/2022 at 6:11 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

She will hear something about Jon's execution

Wouldn't it be interesting if with Jon's death we lose sight of the Wall until Arya shows up a few months after the fact and describes what she finds upon arrival? Jon's body might still be where it fell and Castle Black could be a graveyard.

Either way I agree that news of Jon's demise will likely be the lure that brings Arya back to the North.

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physically, i can't speculate how he does it, but bran makes it back to winterfell in time to play a critical role in defending against the others

jon is resurrected by mel, then leaves the NW to lead the defense against the others

arya leaves braavos more or less immediately after killing raff, lands in the riverlands, reunites with nymeria, then raises hell for a while, perhaps in conjunction with LS, then converges on winterfell as the others approach.

davos, rickon and shaggy dog arrive in time to pay a role in the battle of the ice or its immediate aftermath and the re-taking of winterfell from the boltons.

sansa attains a separate status and power base in the vale, gets rid of LF, and then leads an army of vale and riverlands folks to winterfell in time to play a role in the fight against the others.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/18/2022 at 11:46 AM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Wouldn't it be interesting if with Jon's death we lose sight of the Wall until Arya shows up a few months after the fact and describes what she finds upon arrival? Jon's body might still be where it fell and Castle Black could be a graveyard.

Either way I agree that news of Jon's demise will likely be the lure that brings Arya back to the North.

The battle between Bowen and Tormund will kill a lot of people at Castle Black.  CB will be a graveyard.  But you know the fallen will be zombied by the Others. 

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On 2/12/2022 at 4:49 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

The battle between Bowen and Tormund will kill a lot of people at Castle Black.  CB will be a graveyard.  But you know the fallen will be zombied by the Others. 

I don't think they will be zombified. The Watch has learnt from the wildlings to burn bodies, and other bodies can be stored within the ice cells of the Wall,  which has been noted for its preservation properties. Jon's body will probably be kept in an ice cell until his resurrection.

 

Plus, I think the only wights that have resurrected south of the Wall so far where killed on the northern side and transported to the other side. It's a giant magical wall built for the specific purpose of stopping the Others, and we know it prevents other magical communication like the warg bond and the direwolves sensing each other.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/14/2022 at 3:09 PM, Buried Treasure said:

I don't think they will be zombified. The Watch has learnt from the wildlings to burn bodies, and other bodies can be stored within the ice cells of the Wall,  which has been noted for its preservation properties. Jon's body will probably be kept in an ice cell until his resurrection.

 

Plus, I think the only wights that have resurrected south of the Wall so far where killed on the northern side and transported to the other side. It's a giant magical wall built for the specific purpose of stopping the Others, and we know it prevents other magical communication like the warg bond and the direwolves sensing each other.

 

His body will be kept in the ice cells.  This we know from Bran's visions in the books.  He will come back as a wight.

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On 1/16/2022 at 11:58 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

How do you imagine Davos' journey to find Rickon on Skagos and brings him back to the main North, how do you expect him to convince Rickon, Osha and the Skagosi to take Rickon with him ? 

The first thing to say about the Davos and Rickon plot is that Wyman and the Grand Northern Conspiracy do not have political interest in Rickon at the end of Dance. They are snowmen. It is Jon who is named in Robb's will, not Rickon. The North is hoping that Stannis and Roose will break each other before they emerge to sweep up the pieces and crown Jon, King in the North.

If Rickon was key to Wyman's plan then he would not point the Hand of Stannis in Rickon's direction. Wyman could have played it safe and mounted Davos' head and hands on the walls of White Harbor, but he was merciful. He probably considered Davos to be a good man in service to a bad cause. He would have concern for Rickon, and want him returned safely, but he probably expects Davos to bring Rickon back to a North scoured of Roose and Stannis and united under Jon. However, he has underestimated Stannis and the mercy he extended to Davos is going to come back to bite his considerable butt.

Stannis will defeat the Freys at the crofters village and then take Winterfell with surprising speed, using Tybald's ravens and the Karstarks, who are foreshadowed as leading the way into the castle if need be. The battle will be fought inside the walls and Stannis will emerge in control of the castle, while the main northern strength under Robett Glover are locked out, setting up a familiar siege situation for Stannis.

Jon's death is going to suddenly elevate Rickon's political value, meaning that Davos will be returning in possession of a critical piece in terms of control of the North. All he will need to do is smuggle him into his king, like he's a bag of onions. I suspect the return of a Stark to Winterfell will end the storm in the north, in a political sense at least.

Rickon has not featured much but we have been given some important details about him. We know he feels abandoned. Abandoned boys often seek father figures and who better than Davos, who has sons he lost and more sons back home that he misses, including one of similar age to Rickon. This will facilitate a close bond between the characters.

We also know Rickon's angry and that he was very close to Robb. Stannis is selling vengeance, that's what Davos told Wyman, vengeance for the Red Wedding, including against the Lannister crown. That's exactly what Rickon wants and that's why the new Lord of Winterfell will bend the knee to Stannis.

Stannis will be marching south for King's Landing, but he's not going to leave Rickon behind only for the North to abandon him once he's south of Moat Cailin. So Rickon will be the first Stark back to Winterfell but he'll be gone south with Stannis by the time Bran returns.

On 1/16/2022 at 11:58 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

What will be the reasons that will cause Bran to leave the cave of the Three-Eyed Crow and the Children of the Forest, and when ? 

The Others might force the action here but really we should expect Bran to have a decision to make that will influence the direction of his plot. Bloodraven has revealed to him that he is a greenseer, and as such his destiny lies in being wed to the trees, but I expect Bran to reject the idea at this stage of his arc.

To begin with he won't want to abandon Meera and Hodor. The horror of Jojenpaste, if it's the case, may be another push factor. Another significant factor is that he is likely to learn something that he feels he needs to convey to the realm or to someone back in the realm. This information may relate to defeating the Others, but I feel it is still a bit too early for that. I think a more likely reveal to come into play at this stage is R+L=J, something that Bran will feel he needs to tell Jon.

The route back to the realm has been set up, the underground rivers beneath Bloodraven's cave and Gorne's Way, which will take them at least as far as Long Lake if not back to the crypts of Winterfell. The time spent in the dark will be important to further opening Bran's third eye. Jon will be in Ghost at this stage and Bran has already spoken to Jon in that form, and it's important Jon learns what Bran has to tell him if it is to play a role in his own character decisions.

When Bran returns to Winterfell, Stannis and Rickon will have gone south with the northern forces, the heart tree will be burned to the Red God, and the Long Night will be falling from the north. I think there's a good chance Bran is reunited with Theon at this stage, as Theon needs an act of redemption and believes the old gods are not finished with him yet. Bran will embark on the final leg of his journey with Meera, possibly with Theon's help and maybe even Tyrion's saddle, which will take him to the Neck and then down the Green Fork to the Isle of Faces along the same route Howland once took.

On 1/16/2022 at 11:58 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Same for Arya, what will cause her to leave Braavos and the Faceless Men and to go back to Westeros and to the North ?

Same question for Sansa, how and when do you see her leaving the Vale and going back north, and with who ? 

They're both going to King's Landing to resolve their arcs, with characters like Cersei, Sandor, Gregor, Jaime and Brienne. Arya's going for vengeance, while Sansa's going against her will to stand trial.

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7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The first thing to say about the Davos and Rickon plot is that Wyman and the Grand Northern Conspiracy do not have political interest in Rickon at the end of Dance. They are snowmen. It is Jon who is named in Robb's will, not Rickon. The North is hoping that Stannis and Roose will break each other before they emerge to sweep up the pieces and crown Jon, King in the North.

If Rickon was key to Wyman's plan then he would not point the Hand of Stannis in Rickon's direction. Wyman could have played it safe and mounted Davos' head and hands on the walls of White Harbor, but he was merciful. He probably considered Davos to be a good man in service to a bad cause. He would have concern for Rickon, and want him returned safely, but he probably expects Davos to bring Rickon back to a North scoured of Roose and Stannis and united under Jon. However, he has underestimated Stannis and the mercy he extended to Davos is going to come back to bite his considerable butt.

Stannis will defeat the Freys at the crofters village and then take Winterfell with surprising speed, using Tybald's ravens and the Karstarks, who are foreshadowed as leading the way into the castle if need be. The battle will be fought inside the walls and Stannis will emerge in control of the castle, while the main northern strength under Robett Glover are locked out, setting up a familiar siege situation for Stannis.

Jon's death is going to suddenly elevate Rickon's political value, meaning that Davos will be returning in possession of a critical piece in terms of control of the North. All he will need to do is smuggle him into his king, like he's a bag of onions. I suspect the return of a Stark to Winterfell will end the storm in the north, in a political sense at least.

Rickon has not featured much but we have been given some important details about him. We know he feels abandoned. Abandoned boys often seek father figures and who better than Davos, who has sons he lost and more sons back home that he misses, including one of similar age to Rickon. This will facilitate a close bond between the characters.

We also know Rickon's angry and that he was very close to Robb. Stannis is selling vengeance, that's what Davos told Wyman, vengeance for the Red Wedding, including against the Lannister crown. That's exactly what Rickon wants and that's why the new Lord of Winterfell will bend the knee to Stannis.

Stannis will be marching south for King's Landing, but he's not going to leave Rickon behind only for the North to abandon him once he's south of Moat Cailin. So Rickon will be the first Stark back to Winterfell but he'll be gone south with Stannis by the time Bran returns.

The Others might force the action here but really we should expect Bran to have a decision to make that will influence the direction of his plot. Bloodraven has revealed to him that he is a greenseer, and as such his destiny lies in being wed to the trees, but I expect Bran to reject the idea at this stage of his arc.

To begin with he won't want to abandon Meera and Hodor. The horror of Jojenpaste, if it's the case, may be another push factor. Another significant factor is that he is likely to learn something that he feels he needs to convey to the realm or to someone back in the realm. This information may relate to defeating the Others, but I feel it is still a bit too early for that. I think a more likely reveal to come into play at this stage is R+L=J, something that Bran will feel he needs to tell Jon.

The route back to the realm has been set up, the underground rivers beneath Bloodraven's cave and Gorne's Way, which will take them at least as far as Long Lake if not back to the crypts of Winterfell. The time spent in the dark will be important to further opening Bran's third eye. Jon will be in Ghost at this stage and Bran has already spoken to Jon in that form, and it's important Jon learns what Bran has to tell him if it is to play a role in his own character decisions.

When Bran returns to Winterfell, Stannis and Rickon will have gone south with the northern forces, the heart tree will be burned to the Red God, and the Long Night will be falling from the north. I think there's a good chance Bran is reunited with Theon at this stage, as Theon needs an act of redemption and believes the old gods are not finished with him yet. Bran will embark on the final leg of his journey with Meera, possibly with Theon's help and maybe even Tyrion's saddle, which will take him to the Neck and then down the Green Fork to the Isle of Faces along the same route Howland once took.

They're both going to King's Landing to resolve their arcs, with characters like Cersei, Sandor, Gregor, Jaime and Brienne. Arya's going for vengeance, while Sansa's going against her will to stand trial.

Rickon's claim and right to Winterfell is stronger than Jon's due to him being trueborn son of Ned and brother of Robb, no legitimization nor Robb's will change that, especially as Robb made his will only because he thought that Bran and Rickon were dead. As such the reveal of Bran and Rickon's survival would torpedoe Jon being the first in line to succeed Robb as ruler of the North. 

And I don't see Sansa ever going to King's Landing again, against her will and even less to stand a trial, when she'll come back here it will be of of her own will and as a player of the game with her own partisans this time. 

Edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight9
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On 1/16/2022 at 4:58 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

When and through which circumstances do you think that Bran, Arya, Sansa and Rickon will go back to the North (or the mainland North in Rickon's case as he's currently on the northern island of Skagos) and to Winterfell ? 

How do you imagine Davos' journey to find Rickon on Skagos and brings him back to the main North, how do you expect him to convince Rickon, Osha and the Skagosi to take Rickon with him ? 

What will be the reasons that will cause Bran to leave the cave of the Three-Eyed Crow and the Children of the Forest, and when ? 

Same for Arya, what will cause her to leave Braavos and the Faceless Men and to go back to Westeros and to the North ?

Same question for Sansa, how and when do you see her leaving the Vale and going back north, and with who ? 

In what order do you think that the Stark kids will return North ?

 

Rickon - There seems to be this perception on the forum that Davos is going to go to Skagos, pick up Rickon, and take him back to Winterfell to a rousing welcome.  A simple out-and-back.  Yeah, right.  Nothing in ASOIAF is ever that simple or straightforward.  My guess is that Davos ends up at Hardhome, with or without Rickon (probably with), and then heads farther north.  I think we see the Land of Always Winter from his perspective.  I doubt that Rickon makes it south of the Wall much before the end of TWOW, if at all.  Unless his arrival at Winterfell would cause considerable chaos.  Then it might happen.  GRRM is like that.

Bran - I expect Bran to leave the cave at some point.  Either he will discover some piece of information that he has to tell someone about, and unless his communications skills improve by an order of magnitude, he will need to so in person; or he (or Meera) discovers that he and the Children and Bloodraven have very different motives.  I think the underground river is there for a reason,, but I'm not sure how they would be able to use it.  I doubt it goes all the way to Winterfell, but it could go to the Milkwater.

Sansa - I expect her to learn the art of politics in the Vale at the knee of Littlefinger.  At some point, I anticipate some sort of break up between them.  Their worldviews are too different, although I'm not sure Littlefinger realizes this.  It could be his undoing.  Most likely, she will head North to help out in the fight against the Others, who I expect to attack sooner rather than later.

Arya - Arya is the hardest to figure out.  Her story could go in many directions.  One thing that won't happen, though, is her becoming an assassin for the Faceless Men.  She isn't suitedfor it, and I dont' think they are training her for it in any event.  I think they are intent on having her be an undercover agent/spy for them in Westeros.  As a member of a prominent family, she could be useful to them.

If I had to make a guess, I would expect her to meet with Jeyne Poole and for that meeting to be the catalyst for her departure from Braavos, although I expect she will be on thin ice with the FM by then in any event.  The Riverlands is a logical landing point for her.  She has friends and people who know her there, plus her wolf is there.  But I expect the North to draw her in in any event.  It's possible she could go directly to the North, which would probably be through White Harbor.  A meeting with Wylla Manderly is a possibility, given her known Stark sympathies.  I expect the wolfpack to play a role in the fight against the Others.

Neither Sansa nor Arya is going to Kings Landing.  There is nothing there for either of them.  Sansa would need to be taken by force, which wouldn't be easy, given the necessity of going by ship.  Arya has shown no interest in seeking out people for revenge, and I don't really see that changing.  If she runs into them, great, but she isn't going to go out of her way to go after them.

 

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15 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Rickon's claim and right to Winterfell is stronger than Jon's due to him being trueborn son of Ned and brother of Robb, no legitimization nor Robb's will change that, especially as Robb made his will only because he thought that Bran and Rickon were dead. As such the reveal of Bran and Rickon's survival would torpedoe Jon being the first in line to succeed Robb as ruler of the North.

I'm sure you could argue that in court, but there is no court. What it comes down to is how Wyman and the northern lords want to interpret the situation. They could make the case you just made, and go with Rickon. However, they might also choose to honor King Robb's will and go with Jon. They might decide that going with what Robb decreed in writing represents a firmer continuation of the independence declared by Robb and supported by the other northern lords who were victims of the Red Wedding.

Wyman and the northern lords have a choice, Jon or Rickon, but if we look at some of the clues, like the snowmen in Winterfell for example, then we get a hint at how they chose.

Jon's going to be in Ghost for a while. Bran's still out of the picture. It's perfectly set-up for Rickon to be the key to the north at this moment, when Stannis, Roose, and the northern lords are fighting for control of Winterfell.

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7 hours ago, Nevets said:

Arya has shown no interest in seeking out people for revenge, and I don't really see that changing.  If she runs into them, great, but she isn't going to go out of her way to go after them.

Of course Arya has interest in revenge. She has a list of people she wants revenge on. Do you really think she is hoping to just run into Cersei some day in Winterfell or the Riverlands? Cersei is in king's Landing and that's where Arya will eventually have to go to get her revenge.

Arya has not sought out her targets yet because she has not yet achieved agency. The Arya who fled King's Landing was not really capable of getting revenge on people like Cersei. But she has been learning how as she progresses through her arc, learning the skills she needs from the Faceless Men without surrendering her identity in the process. Once she attains Jaqen level skills she will be in a position to go and get the revenge she seeks, and not just hope for a chance meeting with Cersei somewhere sometime.

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21 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Of course Arya has interest in revenge. She has a list of people she wants revenge on. Do you really think she is hoping to just run into Cersei some day in Winterfell or the Riverlands? Cersei is in king's Landing and that's where Arya will eventually have to go to get her revenge.

Arya has not sought out her targets yet because she has not yet achieved agency. The Arya who fled King's Landing was not really capable of getting revenge on people like Cersei. But she has been learning how as she progresses through her arc, learning the skills she needs from the Faceless Men without surrendering her identity in the process. Once she attains Jaqen level skills she will be in a position to go and get the revenge she seeks, and not just hope for a chance meeting with Cersei somewhere sometime.

She's not going to learn Jaqen level skills.  Not in the time remaining in the story.  If the Faceless Men are intent on making her an assassin, they are taking their sweet time about it.  She's no better at killing people now than she was when she got to Braavos. 

Cersei is the only worthwhile target left on the list, and I doubt Arya has, or will get, sufficient skills to be able to go after her.  Besides, Cersei has plenty of enemies already; Arya would be superfluous. 

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1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm sure you could argue that in court, but there is no court. What it comes down to is how Wyman and the northern lords want to interpret the situation. They could make the case you just made, and go with Rickon. However, they might also choose to honor King Robb's will and go with Jon. They might decide that going with what Robb decreed in writing represents a firmer continuation of the independence declared by Robb and supported by the other northern lords who were victims of the Red Wedding.

Wyman and the northern lords have a choice, Jon or Rickon, but if we look at some of the clues, like the snowmen in Winterfell for example, then we get a hint at how they chose.

Jon's going to be in Ghost for a while. Bran's still out of the picture. It's perfectly set-up for Rickon to be the key to the north at this moment, when Stannis, Roose, and the northern lords are fighting for control of Winterfell.

There is no need for a court since this law of trueborn sons coming before bastard sons, even legitimized ones, has been present for millenias and is too deeply rooted in westero mentality.

And as I've mentioned earlier Robb's will was made under the belief that Bran and Rickon were dead and only put Jon before Sansa in the succession. The discovery of Bran and Rickon's, or even of Rickon's alone survival will make this will obsolete with its only remaining applicability being of Jon being possibly legitimized and above Sansa in the succession line.

Jon can possibly become regent based on his possible legitimization and Rickon's young age but it's obvious that he won't be Lord or King in the North while Rickon is alive and that he'll have to step down once Bran or Rickon comes of age.

And to become Rickon's regent he would need to win the support of the northern lords which is not a given with Jon seeming to have deserted the NW and broken his oaths to some, with many who'd be sceptical about his "death and ressurection" as well as his ties with the Wildlings.

And to finish he cannot hope to get Stannis' help to make him lord of the North and Winterfell while Rickon is here,as Stannis cannot put Jon's claim before Rickon's because it would undermine his own claim which is based on him being the heir to the Iron Throne by law.

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4 hours ago, Nevets said:

She's not going to learn Jaqen level skills.  Not in the time remaining in the story.  If the Faceless Men are intent on making her an assassin, they are taking their sweet time about it.  She's no better at killing people now than she was when she got to Braavos. 

Cersei is the only worthwhile target left on the list, and I doubt Arya has, or will get, sufficient skills to be able to go after her.  Besides, Cersei has plenty of enemies already; Arya would be superfluous. 

She has been learning and she will attain Jaqen level skills when she can change her face as easily as he did in Harrenhal.

Quote

 

Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer; his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.

Arya's mouth hung open. "Who are you?" she whispered, too astonished to be afraid. "How did you do that? Was it hard?"

He grinned, revealing a shiny gold tooth. "No harder than taking a new name, if you know the way."

 

No dead face masks or anything, that was just another step in her training. Mummery is further training. She is subtly honing her skills but changing her face like Jaqen is the key skill she needs to get close to Cersei. And as Jaqen said, it's no harder than taking a new name, if you know the way. Arya just needs to know the way and there's plenty of time for that, given that she has already taken some steps in that regard.

You might think Cersei is the only worthwhile target on Arya's list but obviously they are important to Arya, otherwise there wouldn't be a list. Ser Ilyn cut her father's head off, remember? When she saw Raff in Braavos she felt the gods had given her a gift, and that shows she is still very motivated by the people on her list.

Cersei does have plenty of enemies but you can't deny that one of them is Arya. I'm not saying she will kill Cersei, I think that will be Jaime, but she will go to King's Landing seeking the remaining names on her list.

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4 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

There is no need for a court since this law of trueborn sons coming before bastard sons, even legitimized ones, has been present for millenias and is too deeply rooted in westero mentality.

We're not talking about Ned's successor, who was Robb. Robb was King in the North, not just Lord of Winterfell. Rickon is his brother, not his trueborn son. Robb had no issue that he knew of, and therefore he created a will to name his heir. I strongly suspect Robb named Jon.

4 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And as I've mentioned earlier Robb's will was made under the belief that Bran and Rickon were dead and only put Jon before Sansa in the succession. The discovery of Bran and Rickon's, or even of Rickon's alone survival will make this will obsolete with its only remaining applicability being of Jon being possibly legitimized and above Sansa in the succession line.

As I said, that depends on how the northern lords see it, and there's a lot of clues that they were planning on crowning Jon, not Rickon, as Robb's successor.

4 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Jon can possibly become regent based on his possible legitimization and Rickon's young age but it's obvious that he won't be Lord or King in the North while Rickon is alive and that he'll have to step down once Bran or Rickon comes of age.

Again, you're getting hooked up on Ned's line. Robb was King in the North, the first since Torrhen Stark. As king he made a will and named an heir, having no issue he knew of.

4 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And to become Rickon's regent he would need to win the support of the northern lords which is not a given with Jon seeming to have deserted the NW and broken his oaths to some, with many who'd be sceptical about his "death and ressurection" as well as his ties with the Wildlings.

Well, he's dead, so the plans of Stannis and the northern lords have obviously gone out the window. That's the point. That's what elevates Rickon's political value.

4 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

And to finish he cannot hope to get Stannis' help to make him lord of the North and Winterfell while Rickon is here,as Stannis cannot put Jon's claim before Rickon's because it would undermine his own claim which is based on him being the heir to the Iron Throne by law.

Stannis was trying to make Jon his Lord of Winterfell. Now Jon is dead and Rickon is going to return with Davos, so obviously Rickon will be the key to the North now. That Rickon and Davos are being pushed together now suggests Stannis will have a route to winning the North.

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7 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

We're not talking about Ned's successor, who was Robb. Robb was King in the North, not just Lord of Winterfell. Rickon is his brother, not his trueborn son. Robb had no issue that he knew of, and therefore he created a will to name his heir. I strongly suspect Robb named Jon.

As I said, that depends on how the northern lords see it, and there's a lot of clues that they were planning on crowning Jon, not Rickon, as Robb's successor.

Again, you're getting hooked up on Ned's line. Robb was King in the North, the first since Torrhen Stark. As king he made a will and named an heir, having no issue he knew of.

Well, he's dead, so the plans of Stannis and the northern lords have obviously gone out the window. That's the point. That's what elevates Rickon's political value.

Stannis was trying to make Jon his Lord of Winterfell. Now Jon is dead and Rickon is going to return with Davos, so obviously Rickon will be the key to the North now. That Rickon and Davos are being pushed together now suggests Stannis will have a route to winning the North.

Robb only made Jon his heir only due to the fact that Bran and Rickon were believed to be dead, with their survival being revealed Robb's will becomes moot in the sense that it cancels the reason why Robb made Jon his heir with Jon not being Robb's only surviving male sibling anymore, and with them still being above Jon in the succession line by law which no will can change. 

If Robb knew about their survival he would never made Jon his heir or he would have cancelled his will as soon as possible. That's something that all northern lords and ladies should understand and respect, and they will most likely not want to break the law and create another dangerous precedent especially after the previous disastrous examples of succession rules being broken with Rhaenyra Targaryen and Renly Baratheon, with Robb refusing exactly to recognise Renly as his king for this reason. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Robb only made Jon his heir only due to the fact that Bran and Rickon were believed to be dead, with their survival being revealed Robb's will becomes moot in the sense that it cancels the reason why Robb made Jon his heir with Jon not being Robb's only surviving male sibling anymore, and with them still being above Jon in the succession line by law which no will can change. 

If Robb knew about their survival he would never made Jon his heir or he would have cancelled his will as soon as possible. That's something that all northern lords and ladies should understand and respect, and they will most likely not want to break the law and create another dangerous precedent especially after the previous disastrous examples of succession rules being broken with Rhaenyra Targaryen and Renly Baratheon, with Robb refusing exactly to recognise Renly as his king for this reason. 

 

So you're saying clues like the "snowmen" are not really clues and the northern lords' plan revolves around Rickon, who Wyman sent Davos, the Hand of a king who is trying to win the North to his own cause, to retrieve? I disagree.

I think this idea of the Starks assembling at Winterfell like the avengers to stop the "Night King" is a product of the show, which has an entirely different cannon. One that was widely panned as unsatisfying. That's because the show-runners were tying off plot lines they didn't know how to conclude. They did the same in King's Landing when they herded a lot of characters into the sept and blew it up. They did the same in Dorne when someone just stabbed everybody or whatever happened there. GRRM is not going to just tie-off arcs he spent five books crafting.

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3 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So you're saying clues like the "snowmen" are not really clues and the northern lords' plan revolves around Rickon, who Wyman sent Davos, the Hand of a king who is trying to win the North to his own cause, to retrieve? I disagree.

I think this idea of the Starks assembling at Winterfell like the avengers to stop the "Night King" is a product of the show, which has an entirely different cannon. One that was widely panned as unsatisfying. That's because the show-runners were tying off plot lines they didn't know how to conclude. They did the same in King's Landing when they herded a lot of characters into the sept and blew it up. They did the same in Dorne when someone just stabbed everybody or whatever happened there. GRRM is not going to just tie-off arcs he spent five books crafting.

I was not talking about the snowsmen, nor about the Night's King at all and the points about Rickon's importance, with him being the main piece of Wyman Manderly's plans, and the pack coming together have been hinted more than once in the books. 

Nor I said anything about the show's story or subplots, and I don't see the point of bringing up the show anyway knowing too well the quality of the writing during the last fours seasons.

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