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Martell-Tyrell-Conspiracy (pro-Targaryen)?


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Hi everyone, sorry if this has already been discussed years ago, but I just got an idea: Maybe the Tyrells and Martells are conspiring to re-install Targaryen rule in Westeros. But I think that while they work together to bring down the Lannister (Baratheon) rule, they are also playing each other and both trying to gain more power than the other, once the Targaryens are back in charge.

 

Here is what supports this theory in my opinion:

 

·         During Robert’s Rebellion, both houses were on the side of Mad King Aerys (although Doran was furious at Rhaegar setting aside Elia).

·         Even after the war ended, Dorne stayed loyal to the Targaryens. There seems to have been a plan to marry Arianne to Viserys, now Doran sent Quentin to Dany and then Arianne to (f)Ageon.

·         Willas Tyrell isn’t married, although he’s in his thirties. Yes, he’s disabled, but in Westeros, marriage is not about love/attraction, but about alliances – is Willas being “saved” for Dany? (Ok, Olenna planned to marry Sansa to him. But she was basically still a child and could have easily died in childbirth – not having children at a too young age is a thing in Fire and Blood.)

·         Olenna was responsible for Joffrey’s death – I am sure she would have killed Renly too, if Margeary “needed” to marry someone else. (Renly and his knights of summer might have lost their war anyway, so he could have died in battle or be killed as a traitor.) – Now, Tommen is way too young to consummate his marriage, and (f)Aegon is on his way…

(All the planned/possible marriage alliances made me think that the houses are still concurrents, even if they have a common goal right now.)

·         Willas Tyrell kept in touch with Oberyn Martell and they exchanged friendly letters.

·         Doran and Olenna are both good at plotting and hiding their true goals.

·         The two houses traditionally don’t like each other, so it’s unlikely someone suspects them of working together.

 

So, what do you think about this? Dragonfire-hot or not?

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3 hours ago, SansaTakingUpNeedle said:

snip

 

Dorne and the Reach are ancient enemies, with literally ten thousand years of bad blood. Reach houses like the Oakhearts have rich tapestries depicting Dornish atrocities on their people and the great victories they won in return. While they may have both been loyalists, it is highly unlikely that they were co-conspirators. They each had their own reasons for supporting the crown, and the Mad King deftly arranged it so they did not spend much time in each other's company during the war.

The plan to wed Vis to Arianne came after the rebels murdered Elia and her children. Yes, they had a strong interest in bringing down the rebs and restoring the Targs at that point.

Olenna was responsible for Joffrey's death but it was an accident. The real target was Tyrion, but Joffrey ate the pie instead.

Willas knows that Oberyn did not intentionally maim him. Why should he? How does that benefit Oberyn, House Martell, or Dorne? And friendly letters between non-ruling nobles do not a conspiracy make.

Doran and Olenna both have a lot to gain from the fall of House Lannister. Neither needs the other to make that happen, though.

Of course it's always possible that there is something undercover between Martell and Tyrell, but there is nothing yet that points in that direction.

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3 hours ago, SansaTakingUpNeedle said:

So, what do you think about this? Dragonfire-hot or not?

Hot. Definitely. There is some sort of hidden plotting. Though, in my opinion, the Martells and the Tyrells are not together in that conspiracy, instead they are both pursuing their own separate goals.

I think that Olenna Tyrell's mother was Calla Blackfyre, and that Varys and his older sister - Serra (Illyrio's wife), were children of Jenny of Oldstones and Maelys the Montsrous Blackfyre (explanation of why I think so, you can read here, in one of my threads -> Swan Song part 9/16. The Red Widow & The Spider).

And, concerning why I think that Calla was Olenna's mother, this conclusion is based on symbolism used by GRRM in relation to the Tyrells:

1. Olenna's husband was named Luthor Tyrell. The flowers calla lilies were "created" by botanist Luther Burbank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Burbank#Burbank_cultivars

"a calla lily with fragrant odour [15] was amongst his many creations."

2. The symbol of Lutheran Church (created by Martin Luther) looks a lot like the sigil of House Tyrell:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_rose

So based on the fact that the information about who was Olenna's mother, was witheld from the books, and on the sum of those two symbols (Luther&callas and Luthor&Tyrell-rose), I made conclusion that Olenna, and thru her all the Tyrells in the following generations, are bloodrelated to Varys, who is a Blackfyre by blood, same as them. fAegon, in my opinion, is also a Blackfyre (I think that his parents are septa Lemore/Lady Jeyne Swann and Barristan Selmy, who's mother possibly was a daughter of Aenys Blackfyre. If you'll be interested, you can read more on this topic here - about Barristan possibly being a Blackfyre - Swan Song part 8/16. The real cause of the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion ; and about fAegon's parents - Swan Song part 10/16. What happened at the Kingswood).

In my opinion, when Daemon I Blackfyre died on battlefield, and Bittersteel had to somehow transport Daemon's family and his loyalists (who later formed in Essos the Golden Company) across the Narrow Sea, to escape the prosecution from the Targaryens, he made a deal with the Redwynes, and in exchange for Lord Redwyne providing his fleet to transport them, Bittersteel gave up his own fiencee - Calla, and agreed for her marriage with Lord Redwyne's son - Runceford (Olenna Tyrell's father). So both Olenna and Varys know about each other that they are Blackfyres, and thus years ago they conspired together to overthrow Targaryen regime. Varys made a deal with the Golden Company, that he will provide them with a Blackfyre-prince whom he will aid with getting the Iron Throne. And with the Tyrells he made a deal that that Prince will marry with one of the Tyrell-girls. And thus that girl, who is supposed to become fAegon's wife and the future Queen of the 7K, was supposed to be Margaery Tyrell.

During Robert's Rebellion the Tyrells weren't actually supporting King Aerys. They withdrew their troops from any fighting and went to Storm's End, where they were stalling for time, waiting for when Mace Tyrell's wife will give birth to her child. Margaery was born in 283, and her mother got pregnant in 282, around the time when the Rebellion started. So Varys probably at that time offered that deal to the Tyrells. He already had fAegon (who was born in January of 282 <- explanation in the link above, in SS-10/16), and in case if Mace's wife gave birth to a girl, he promised that this girl will become fAegon's wife and the Queen, when fAegon will seize Iron Throne (with Varys' help and the Golden Company's support).

Though during the Rebellion something went wrong. Maybe it ended sooner than Varys was expecting. Thus he had no time to bring over the Golden Company. So the Tyrells also were staying back from the fighting, waiting for the GC's arrival. And then, when after the Rebellion nearly all of the 7K's regions were united thru political marriages, it became problematic for Varys to launch the Blackfyre Invasion under those conditions. Thus both him and the Tyrells had to wait for when the situation will change. So afterwards the years were passing and passing, and the Tyrells got tired of waiting for when Varys will fulfill his promises, and thus they had chosen a different method how to make their Margaery the Queen of the 7K - thru marriage with Renly, and then Joffrey and Tommen. So they betrayed Varys. Furthermore, they conspired with Littlefinger, who in the past (in my opinion) was one of Varys' agents, and thus knew all about Varys' plans concerning fAegon and the Tyrells. That's why he kidnapped Sansa - to use her as a trump card, same as Varys was going to use Margaery. LF plans to offer fAegon to marry with Sansa, who is the key to The North, the Vale and the Riverlands. Which is a way better offer than the marriage with either Margaery or Arianne Martell, each of whom can offer to fAegon the support of only one Kingdom, versus Sansa's three.

So that's what Varys and the Tyrells are plotting. And the Martells are playing their own game, separately from those two factions. Their plan is to marry fAegon with Arianne, and before him it was Viserys+Arianne, and then it was supposed to be Dany+Quentyn. Though the Golden Company think that Arianne is not the best possible option. They will chose either Sansa or Margaery, or for fAegon to marry with both of them (like Aegon the Conqueror, who also had two wives), or will want to wait for Dany (and her dragons as a "dowry"). Though I think that Arianne will seduce fAegon, they will be in a relationship, and that at the time of fAegon's death, Arianne will be pregnant with his child (explanation here -> Swan Song part 14/16. The Perfumed Seneschal and the Mummer's Dragon).

So I think that the Tyrells are plotting their own game (with Margaery as their trump card), and before that they were in aliance with Varys. Now they are in aliance with Littlefinger. Though Littlefinger is planning to betray them, and use his own trump card against the Tyrells - Sansa. And the Martells are also playing separately, with their trump card being Arianne. And I think that in the end they all - Varys, Littlefinger, Tyrells, Martells, Golden Company and fAegon - will lose. The winner in the game of thrones will be JonDany-ship. ^_^

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If the Tyrells support the Targs, then marrying Margaery to Tommen was the dumbest decision imaginable. They tied their fate to the Lannisters, so when the Lannisters go down, the Tyrells go with them.

To be fair, Margaery was married to Renly, so those issues can always be resolved.

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22 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If the Tyrells support the Targs, then marrying Margaery to Tommen was the dumbest decision imaginable. They tied their fate to the Lannisters, so when the Lannisters go down, the Tyrells go with them.

 

20 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

To be fair, Margaery was married to Renly, so those issues can always be resolved.

Also, if the Targ dynasty is restored, either by Dany or Aegon, then Mace, for one, is not long for this earth considering how he abandoned his Targ king on Dragonstone so he could make a nice peace deal for himself.

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57 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Also, if the Targ dynasty is restored, either by Dany or Aegon, then Mace, for one, is not long for this earth considering how he abandoned his Targ king on Dragonstone so he could make a nice peace deal for himself.

Yeah, I think that they’ll get toppled along with the Lannisters by Aegon, then ally themselves with Dany to try to reclaim whatever they lost. Even if Margaery outlives Tommen, I think she’ll be far too radioactive by that point for Mace to try to swindle yet another marriage out of the new king.

This is also why I think the Tyrell political acumen is a little overblown by the fans. Kevan actually has to explain to Mace that Margaery will lose her crown if Tommen is declared a bastard. And both she and Olenna are dumb enough to make veiled allusions to the incest in front of Cersei (and while in the presence of other people). Apparently owning Cersei is more important than keeping their heads.

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On 1/18/2022 at 10:41 AM, John Suburbs said:

Olenna was responsible for Joffrey's death but it was an accident. The real target was Tyrion, but Joffrey ate the pie instead.

Why kill Tyrion? To free Sansa?

I get that Littlefinger would want that but why would Olenna put herself at risk to help make Littlefinger's plan become reality.

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16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why kill Tyrion? To free Sansa?

I get that Littlefinger would want that but why would Olenna put herself at risk to help make Littlefinger's plan become reality.

I wouldn't be surprised that Littlefinger isn't sending assassins after Tyrion to kill him so his plans can progress more smoothly.

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

That makes sense.

But what would be Olenna Tyrell's motive in helping Littlefinger kill Tyrion and acquire Sansa?

I'm not saying it is; in this case this is Littlefinger's plan on his own.

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19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why kill Tyrion? To free Sansa?

I get that Littlefinger would want that but why would Olenna put herself at risk to help make Littlefinger's plan become reality.

To prevent Tywin from getting the north and giving him domain over enough of the realm to overwhelm the Reach's one and only defense: it's army. Her motivation for killing Tyrin is actually greater than Littlefinger's.

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