Sansa's Marriage Dilemma or Marriageception

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Now Sansa remember The Hound kissing her the night he tried to rape her... that's close to Stockholm Syndrome.

Ooh Angel Eyes, you missed our investigation. We discovered that George confirmed that the Hound only meant to take Sansa with him out of the city, not rape her, via the app. (The scene was also toned down quite a bit in the comic adaptation. Between that and the show—he wrote the Battle of the Blackwater episode—it looks like George might be trying to something of a soft retcon regarding that scene).

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Now Sansa remember The Hound kissing her the night he tried to rape her... that's close to Stockholm Syndrome.

Is the Hound supposed to be a sympathetic character? To me, he has always been creepy/scary and I've never really understood his popularity with fans.

[Harry the Hair]

2 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The point of the Tyrion + Sansa marriage was to show us her character.  She turned away a decent man who could have offered her everything (except a handsome husband) she would need.  Sansa is not going to be a queen of anything.  Right now, she is a bastard who cannot reveal her true identity because she is considered a Kingslayer.  The future does not look bright.  She might get it through that head of hears to make a play for a larger prize but she will hopefully suffer for it. 

What on earth??? Are you sure you’re not mixing up Sansa with Cersei?

How was she supposed to know that a member of the family that killed off her parents and brother is going to offer her everything? As far as she’s concerned all she ever got from the Lannisters was abuse and lies and the only reason why Tyrion married her was to get Winterfell. Despite all that, she doesn’t seem to harbour any ill will towards Tyrion, in fact she recalls on several occasions that he was kind to her. She prays for him during the Battle of Blackwater. She also shows compassion towards Lancel even though she has every reason not to. She also showed a lot of empathy towards Sandor Clegane, someone who was horribly disfigured and shunned by society. 

Her having to pose as a lowborn bastard shows her a different side of life at court (idk if you can call gates of the moon as Sweetrobin’s court but we’ll call that for argument’s sake). She used to be dismissive of Jon due to his status as a bastard and now that she’s had a taste of what his experience at home was she reevaluates her priorities in life. 

On several occasions throughout the books she laments on the fact that most people only use and abuse her and their only interest is in her claim, whereas she longs to be loved and no longer cares about being queen or wearing a crown. Starting AFFC she is weary of appearances and puts more value in to people’s actions. 

That being said, everyone is free to interpret the text as they want to, so take what you will from the story. But I feel like you’re doing yourself a disservice by dismissing her character as shallow and dumb. 

[Apoplexy]

17 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Is the Hound supposed to be a sympathetic character? To me, he has always been creepy/scary and I've never really understood his popularity with fans.

I've never understood how the Sandor-Sansa interaction is supposed to be romantic. It's extremely messed up. I could probably have a little sympathy for him since he had Gregor for an older brother, but thats where the sympathy ends.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Now Sansa remember The Hound kissing her the night he tried to rape her... that's close to Stockholm Syndrome.

that is certainly problematic (it's still disputed if he wanted to rape her but he definitely threatened her). but whether the un-kiss shows Sansa's Stockholm Syndrome or not isn't relevant to her relationship with Tyrion. expecting her to fall for Tyrion or as @Bowen 747 says "chooses" this guy who as former hand of the king and Tywin's son kept her as the crown's hostage equals expecting her to develop SS ! 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Isn’t Stockholm Syndrome supposed to be between a captive and their captor? That was Cersei and Joffrey, not the Hound. If she had Stockholm Syndrome in relation to Sandor, she would have left the city with him so they wouldn’t be separated.

The more concerning captive/captor situation is with Petyr in the Alayne sample chapter, where she seems to have fallen under his spell. The only time the immersion breaks is when he looks at her with “Littlefinger’s eyes” at one point.

[Harry the Hair]

49 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Isn’t Stockholm Syndrome supposed to be between a captive and their captor? That was Cersei and Joffrey, not the Hound. If she had Stockholm Syndrome in relation to Sandor, she would have left the city with him so they wouldn’t be separated.

The more concerning captive/captor situation is with Petyr in the Alayne sample chapter, where she seems to have fallen under his spell. The only time the immersion breaks is when he looks at her with “Littlefinger’s eyes” at one point.

This.
 

My current concern is would she be willing to act against LF on her cousin’s behalf? Granted that he was quite the little pest when they first met but I believe that with proper nurturing he can grow up to be a stable individual. He is one of her few remaining kin (as far as she knows) and even if he wasn’t, he’s an innocent child that desperately needs her care. The fact that she thinks that his future betrothed would love his hair gives me hope that she hasn’t written him off as a commodity and will chose family over ambition this time around. And who knows, maybe she’ll decide to remain Alayne Stone and her final marriage will be for love. 

[EggBlue]

at the beginning of the feast I was worried about how a Sansa might feel about LF . particularly, that she feels unnecessary gratitude towards him .. but the further the story went , the more obvious it became that she is fully aware that she's only playing a role. for example in the scene that Bard of Banefort mentioned , she kisses him on the chick which was different from the kiss he asked for whilst thinking that's what a dutiful daughter would do. then when she thinks he looks at her with LF eyes it's as if she is recognizing his obsessions which is telling for a girl who used to see only the surface. at least, that's how I read it. as for her relationship with SweetRobin , the part about his future bride makes me hopeful as well, @Harry the Hair. I think she will help the poor kid in some way in the future . in fact she is already helping him getting some courage through the winged knight stories and protecting him from staff gossips when she tries to convince him leave the Eyrie . however , it doesn't seem to become as a "he's my last kin , so ,I should help him " viewpoint rather from the same pity and feeling of empathy she had with Lancel , the Hound in GoT and even Tyrion. 

[Harry the Hair]

15 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

at the beginning of the feast I was worried about how a Sansa might feel about LF . particularly, that she feels unnecessary gratitude towards him .. but the further the story went , the more obvious it became that she is fully aware that she's only playing a role. for example in the scene that Bard of Banefort mentioned , she kisses him on the chick which was different from the kiss he asked for whilst thinking that's what a dutiful daughter would do. then when she thinks he looks at her with LF eyes it's as if she is recognizing his obsessions which is telling for a girl who used to see only the surface. at least, that's how I read it. as for her relationship with SweetRobin , the part about his future bride makes me hopeful as well, @Harry the Hair. I think she will help the poor kid in some way in the future . in fact she is already helping him getting some courage through the winged knight stories and protecting him from staff gossips when she tries to convince him leave the Eyrie . however , it doesn't seem to become as a "he's my last kin , so ,I should help him " viewpoint rather from the same pity and feeling of empathy she had with Lancel , the Hound in GoT and even Tyrion. 

I got the impression that her referring to Sweetrobin as her little lord as opposed to cousin in her thoughts was her taking LF’s advice and trying to be Alayne at all times. That being said, she’s quite bad at it and I’m willing to bet 5$ that at least the younger branch of house Royce is on to her. Maybe if she realizes that the jig is up her view point might switch to omg my little cousin is alone in a nest of vipers who can’t wait to replace him with Hairy Harry. 

be warned, WOW spoilers below:

Spoiler

I have to admit that I was rather surprised that Harry had the Arryn crest on half his shield when he’s only 1/4 Arryn via his maternal grandmother… that Anya Waynwood condoned this was disconcerting to say the least. This was very presumptuous and for a culture that values honor and gallantry this was not a good look. I think not all lords declarant are created equal at this point.

 

[chrisdaw]

10 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Not a bad future dilemma, especially if we consider Tyrion's present situation. However, I don't think Tysha would dare to step forward and make such a claim on a Lannister unless she has some  very powerful protection. The way I can see something like the above happening is if Tyrion meets Tysha while still in Essos, tells her that he has killed Tywin to avenge her, and convinces Tysha to follow him back to Westeros. Then, as the situation changes, he may have to face a dilemma like the above - marrying his true love, who has already agreed to follow him back to Westeros (giving up whatever life she had in Essos) or marrying for political advantage. It would be interesting, but I don't know what it would take for Tysha to want to have anything to do with Tyrion again. Tywin's death could be a factor, and also if Tysha has a very Lannister-looking son or daughter (or a son or daughter who looks like Tyrion), she may consider the advantages of Tyrion acknowledging him / her as his legitimate child. But it is also possible that she would never want her child to go near a Lannister.

I don't agree that she wouldn't necessarily step forward or be brought forward unless she had powerful backing. I think the new Faith of the Seven is going to be powerful and empower the small folk to a degree, at least they will earn some degree of trust with the people. Also Tysha may be desperate with everything to gain and not much of a life to lose, or just more greedy than smart.

Think of the Faith's structure that Tysha would be going to as Septon Meribald on the ground level and the current High Sparrow up high, I think that's a fairly possible scenario. I think there's every chance they'd do the right moral thing by Tysha and hear her out, investigate (look for the drunken septon and soldiers that raped her) her claim and protect her body.

It is after all Tyrion who says

Quote

"Give me priests who are fat and corrupt and cynical," he told Haldon, "the sort who like to sit on soft satin cushions, nibble sweetmeats, and diddle little boys. It's the ones who believe in gods who make the trouble."

Though I don't disagree that Tysha may be a pawn of Tyrion's enemies. This could all come out before Tyrion is crowned, while the struggle for the crown is underway and be a way for his competitors to remove him from the race.

[Julia H.]

19 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't agree that she wouldn't necessarily step forward or be brought forward unless she had powerful backing. I think the new Faith of the Seven is going to be powerful and empower the small folk to a degree, at least they will earn some degree of trust with the people. Also Tysha may be desperate with everything to gain and not much of a life to lose, or just more greedy than smart.

Think of the Faith's structure that Tysha would be going to as Septon Meribald on the ground level and the current High Sparrow up high, I think that's a fairly possible scenario. I think there's every chance they'd do the right moral thing by Tysha and hear her out, investigate (look for the drunken septon and soldiers that raped her) her claim and protect her body.

It is after all Tyrion who says

Though I don't disagree that Tysha may be a pawn of Tyrion's enemies. This could all come out before Tyrion is crowned, while the struggle for the crown is underway and be a way for his competitors to remove him from the race.

Maybe, but this scenario sounds to me like one where Tysha actually has some power backing (or protecting) her, a powerful church. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I took Sansa calling SR “her little lord” to be a sign of affection. There’s something to be said for how she’s taken on more of a mother role. I think she’s in denial about LF poisoning him, as her thoughts about him living long enough to get married “if the gods are good” would suggest. Hopefully she’ll come up with a way to pull him away from LF’s grasp (although if Harry dies early on in TWOW, he might switch strategies instead). On a side note, I feel like SR also has the potential to develop into a really funny character.

Talking about Sansa’s TWOW arc makes me so frustrated that the book hasn’t come out yet. I just want to know what happens next already.

[Harry the Hair]

50 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Talking about Sansa’s TWOW arc makes me so frustrated that the book hasn’t come out yet. I just want to know what happens next already.

Amen, there’s nothing more exciting than a tourney… except maybe a wedding  

Tbh LF’s plan doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when considering the facts. His Lord Protector status is only guaranteed for a year and the eight victors of the tourney have to stay celibate by SR’s side for three years (or until SR dies). If he really hopes to marry Sansa to Harry he’d have to opt for one of the following options:

1) rig the lists of competitors so that Harry wins and wait for 3 years until he is free to wed;

2) rig the lists, kill off SR within the current year and quickly marry him to his bastard daughter (super suspicious…);

3) he actually believes the nonsense he peddled to Sansa in AFFC where his plan revolves around half the lords declarant dying and the other half warming up to his charming personality and let him buy them off.

In the case that Harry doesn’t win then he gets to go home to Saffron unless he does something that lands him in the slammer…. Judging by the fact that the tourney was Alayne’s idea then LF was probably just looking for an excuse to lure our Hairy friend to the gates of the moon. One thing is for sure, those who are loyal to Jon Arryn (and by extension to his son) will take note of the shield faux pas and will start questioning who stands to gain the most from SR’s death. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Harry the Hair said:

Amen, there’s nothing more exciting than a tourney… except maybe a wedding  

Tbh LF’s plan doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when considering the facts. His Lord Protector status is only guaranteed for a year and the eight victors of the tourney have to stay celibate by SR’s side for three years (or until SR dies). If he really hopes to marry Sansa to Harry he’d have to opt for one of the following options:

1) rig the lists of competitors so that Harry wins and wait for 3 years until he is free to wed;

2) rig the lists, kill off SR within the current year and quickly marry him to his bastard daughter (super suspicious…);

3) he actually believes the nonsense he peddled to Sansa in AFFC where his plan revolves around half the lords declarant dying and the other half warming up to his charming personality and let him buy them off.

In the case that Harry doesn’t win then he gets to go home to Saffron unless he does something that lands him in the slammer…. Judging by the fact that the tourney was Alayne’s idea then LF was probably just looking for an excuse to lure our Hairy friend to the gates of the moon. One thing is for sure, those who are loyal to Jon Arryn (and by extension to his son) will take note of the shield faux pas and will start questioning who stands to gain the most from SR’s death. 

Littlefinger's plot has always run quite a bit on luck, but Sweetrobin starting his own pseudo-kingsguard should definitely pique the Lannisters interest. With all the lords who previously declared themselves king, this is a worrisome development. Not to mention that LF suddenly has a beautiful bastard daughter who's the same age as Sansa and, within only a few short months of appearing, has been betrothed to the heir to the Eyrie. Qyburn at the very least should have heard about this by now. 

[Harry the Hair]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Littlefinger's plot has always run quite a bit on luck, but Sweetrobin starting his own pseudo-kingsguard should definitely pique the Lannisters interest. With all the lords who previously declared themselves king, this is a worrisome development. Not to mention that LF suddenly has a beautiful bastard daughter who's the same age as Sansa and, within only a few short months of appearing, has been betrothed to the heir to the Eyrie. Qyburn at the very least should have heard about this by now. 

I’d say he’s about ready to flush Cersei down the drain. This is probably the only time I buy what he’s selling: 

Quote

You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos.

- A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

4 or 5 years, huh… whelp looks like he has max 3 

I think it’s important to note that when he told her this he was drinking very late in to the night, so much so that he forgot himself and started kissing her on the lips fairly aggressively. Last time he did that someone had to fly through the moon door. Not to mention that this goes against the whole you have to be Alayne 100% of the time mantra. I feel like the only time we get a clear glimpse at what he’s really plotting is when he is severely inebriated. 

He also says the following: 

Quote

I thought it best that we have a few more swords about us. The times grow ever more interesting, my sweet, and when the times are interesting you can never have too many swords. The Merling King's returned to Gulltown, and old Oswell had some tales to tell.

- A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

So it looks like whatever is happening in KL is pushing him to dump the Lannisters ASAP. And he needs more swords? By more swords he means the 3 hedge knights he was drinking with???? That’s hardly an army and you definitely can’t be certain these people are trustworthy. Why hire 3 random strangers from a port town when you are harbouring a fugitive wanted for regicide. Kinda weird… it almost sounds like he wants Cersei to find out where Sansa’s hiding at and with whom. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Harry the Hair said:

I’d say he’s about ready to flush Cersei down the drain. This is probably the only time I buy what he’s selling: 

- A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

4 or 5 years, huh… whelp looks like he has max 3 

I think it’s important to note that when he told her this he was drinking very late in to the night, so much so that he forgot himself and started kissing her on the lips fairly aggressively. Last time he did that someone had to fly through the moon door. Not to mention that this goes against the whole you have to be Alayne 100% of the time mantra. I feel like the only time we get a clear glimpse at what he’s really plotting is when he is severely inebriated. 

He also says the following: 

- A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

So it looks like whatever is happening in KL is pushing him to dump the Lannisters ASAP. And he needs more swords? By more swords he means the 3 hedge knights he was drinking with???? That’s hardly an army and you definitely can’t be certain these people are trustworthy. Why hire 3 random strangers from a port town when you are harbouring a fugitive wanted for regicide. Kinda weird… it almost sounds like he wants Cersei to find out where Sansa’s hiding at and with whom. 

I have no idea what’s going to happen with Shadrich (and possibly the other two if they’re all working together), but there’s no point of GRRM putting him there if nothing happens. 
 

Does LF have a particular wine he drinks? I’m curious if some of the characters have preferred drinks that I overlooked when I read the books (although I believe Cersei prefers Arbor gold).

[Harry the Hair]

26 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Does LF have a particular wine he drinks? I’m curious if some of the characters have preferred drinks that I overlooked when I read the books (although I believe Cersei prefers Arbor gold).

He tends to select the wines according to his guests’ preferences, but in this particular case it was hot mulled wine and she notes a taste of cloves and nutmeg on his breath when he kissed her. Interestingly enough Saffron is the daughter of a spice merchant from Gulltown … and Alayne makes a joke that Harry will name his bastard son Cloves. This could be a little hint that maybe Harry is being played by LF all along. Since present company were a bunch of sell swords that LF doesn’t really need to impress then maybe that would be his preferred drink? He seems to like sharp flavours if his habit of chewing mint leaves tells us anything. But then again he might have made this particular choice because that’s what one is expected to offer as refreshment to tired travellers. 

Quote

Tell the cook to mull some red wine with honey and raisins. Our guests will be cold and thirsty after their long climb

- AFFC Alayne I

[The Bard of Banefort]

Speaking of marriage deception, I'm curious if Sansa will ever put together that the only person she told about the betrothal to Willas was Dontos -> Dontos worked for LF -> LF ratted her out to the Lannisters. All the pieces are there, she just has to put them together. The problem is, her coping mechanism seems to rely on willfully overlooking things that could disturb the fragile refuge she has now (such as LF poisoning Sweetrobin). 

I'm thinking that, unlike on the show, Sansa will plot against LF for a while before it comes to fruition. Maybe whatever his next plot for her is has her feeling used, or maybe she runs into Jeyne or Sandor (or hell, even Varys, if he decides to plant a seed of doubt) and that's when she'll start considering his actions more critically. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

On 1/21/2022 at 10:04 PM, Harry the Hair said:

LF asked for her hand in marriage when the Willas Tyrell betrothal plot was exposed. I wonder what his plan would’ve been if his request was granted; though I think he pulled a classic ask for something crazy first and then negotiate down towards what you really want. But it would’ve been interesting to see how his plans would have changed. Personally I think he really does want to keep her all to himself. LF once challenged Brandon Stark for Cat’s hand so there is a bit of a romantic in him in the sense that he might do something irrational for love.
 

Agreed that the whole marry Hairy the Hare affair will never happen, especially if he dies of a jousting “accident” or if he actually manages to win some wings then he has to stay single for 3 years (or until Sweetrobin croaks but I think he’ll live until 100 just to spite his haters). 

Small correction: LF asked for her hand in marriage after Ned was arrested, when Cat was still alive and Sansa was only 11.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Speaking of marriage deception, I'm curious if Sansa will ever put together that the only person she told about the betrothal to Willas was Dontos -> Dontos worked for LF -> LF ratted her out to the Lannisters. All the pieces are there, she just has to put them together. The problem is, her coping mechanism seems to rely on willfully overlooking things that could disturb the fragile refuge she has now (such as LF poisoning Sweetrobin). 

Lysa spoiling LF brought the Starks into the war. Contemplating the commons loving Marge but trying to kill her. What Tyrion wants from her? They're all information/observations of pawn Sansa to grow to understand and use or revenge when she becomes player Sansa.