Sansa's Marriage Dilemma or Marriageception

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Lysa spoiling LF brought the Starks into the war. Contemplating the commons loving Marge but trying to kill her. 

When did the commons try to kill Marge?

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

When did the commons try to kill Marge?

The commons loving Marge but trying to kill Sansa.

[Harry the Hair]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Small correction: LF asked for her hand in marriage after Ned was arrested, when Cat was still alive and Sansa was only 11.

Omg I never caught on to that, I assumed he waited until Joff formerly broke the betrothal but after seeing your comment and rereading Cersei’s inner monologue I just caught on to how early he was gunning for her hand. 
 

Quote

It came to her suddenly that she had stood in this very spot before, on the day Lord Eddard Stark had lost his head. That was not supposed to happen. Joff was supposed to spare his life and send him to the Wall. Stark's eldest son would have followed him as Lord of Winterfell, but Sansa would have stayed at court, a hostage. Varys and Littlefinger had worked out the terms, and Ned Stark had swallowed his precious honor and confessed his treason to save his daughter's empty little head. I would have made Sansa a good marriage. A Lannister marriage. Not Joff, of course, but Lancel might have suited, or one of his younger brothers. Petyr Baelish had offered to wed the girl himself, she recalled, but of course that was impossible; he was much too lowborn. If Joff had only done as he was told, Winterfell would never have gone to war, and Father would have dealt with Robert's brothers.

-ADWD, Cersei II

 

This makes it even weirder, why ask if you know for sure the answer will be no??? Did he actually think there was a chance the Lannisters would agree? What was he going to do if they said yes??? Forget Lysa and the Vale then.
For some reason I assumed all of this happened just after Blackwater when he was awarded Harrenhal and Sansa was cast aside in favour of Margery.  

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I'm curious if Sansa will ever put together that the only person she told about the betrothal to Willas was Dontos -> Dontos worked for LF -> LF ratted her out to the Lannisters.

It’s surprising that she refuses to analyze those facts. It almost looks like someone needs to explicitly ask her how she thinks the Lannisters found out for her to sit down and put the pieces together. 

[Harry the Hair]

 

50 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

The commons loving Marge but trying to kill Sansa.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that, there’s a theory going around that LF orchestrated the bread riots with the ultimate goal to kidnap Sansa during the ensuing chaos.
 

LF supplying grizzly details about the riots to the Tyrells via singers and gossip when he left just before the riots suggests he planned the whole thing. The fact that Tyrek Lannister mysteriously disappears without a trace is pretty suspicious too.  

 

 

[Springwatch]

9 hours ago, Harry the Hair said:

Omg I never caught on to that, I assumed he waited until Joff formerly broke the betrothal but after seeing your comment and rereading Cersei’s inner monologue I just caught on to how early he was gunning for her hand. 
 

-ADWD, Cersei II

 

This makes it even weirder, why ask if you know for sure the answer will be no??? Did he actually think there was a chance the Lannisters would agree? What was he going to do if they said yes??? Forget Lysa and the Vale then.
For some reason I assumed all of this happened just after Blackwater when he was awarded Harrenhal and Sansa was cast aside in favour of Margery.  

Cersei in Dance is not a reliable narrator of Cersei in AGoT. She had a fixation with little Sansa that she likes to forget.

"Mother says I'm still to marry you, so you'll stay here, and you'll obey." (Joffrey after Ned's execution.)

"Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark" (Cersei, when Tyrion proposes the Tyrell marriage - it takes Tyrion, LF and Varys combined to persuade her.)

9 hours ago, Harry the Hair said:

It’s surprising that she refuses to analyze those facts. It almost looks like someone needs to explicitly ask her how she thinks the Lannisters found out for her to sit down and put the pieces together. 

Meh. The Red Keep is full of ears - the leak could have come from the Tyrell side. But yeah, lots of things to think about with Littlefinger. Maybe she does, but we don't see it.

[Harry the Hair]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Cersei in Dance is not a reliable narrator of Cersei in AGoT. She had a fixation with little Sansa that she likes to forget.

"Mother says I'm still to marry you, so you'll stay here, and you'll obey." (Joffrey after Ned's execution.)

"Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark" (Cersei, when Tyrion proposes the Tyrell marriage - it takes Tyrion, LF and Varys combined to persuade her.)

Could it be that she tried to use his betrothal to Sansa just as an excuse to refuse the Tyrells but relented when the trio kept pushing? 

Quote

I would have made Sansa a good marriage. A Lannister marriage. Not Joff, of course, but Lancel might have suited, or one of his younger brothers. 

She states it as if the notion of marrying him to Sansa at this point was borderline ridiculous. Maybe LF thought the same and decided to try his luck? 
 

I never gave much thought to when he asked for her hand, just automatically assumed he waited until she gets officially discarded and now it somehow seems important. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 minutes ago, Harry the Hair said:

Could it be that she tried to use his betrothal to Sansa just as an excuse to refuse the Tyrells but relented when the trio kept pushing? 

She states it as if the notion of marrying him to Sansa at this point was borderline ridiculous. Maybe LF thought the same and decided to try his luck? 
 

I never gave much thought to when he asked for her hand, just automatically assumed he waited until she gets officially discarded and now it somehow seems important. 

The fact that Cat was still alive at the time illustrates that LF’s “love” for her was really more about beauty, power, and ego. With Ned gone, he could have tried to woo her into marrying him, but instead he pursued her younger, prettier, even more highborn daughter.

I think this revelation, coming in ADWD, is also supposed to emphasize that LF is a predator that wants Sansa for himself (even though we already knew that). LF may be trying to marry her off to someone else, but I’m guessing seeing her with another man is going to drive him crazy regardless.

[Springwatch]

52 minutes ago, Harry the Hair said:

Could it be that she tried to use his betrothal to Sansa just as an excuse to refuse the Tyrells but relented when the trio kept pushing? 

Unlikely - she doesn't hate the Tyrells at the time; she hasn't met them. And she can't think of any objections, except Margaery's marriage to the dead Renly.

52 minutes ago, Harry the Hair said:

She states it as if the notion of marrying him to Sansa at this point was borderline ridiculous. Maybe LF thought the same and decided to try his luck? 

It is borderline ridiculous, always was, at least since the death of Ned and Robb's rebellion - Sansa brings nothing but her traitor blood and her sweet self. Dance Cersei is actually more clear-headed on the subject than Game Cersei.

(What I think/hope this is about, is that grrm is portraying force of personality/charm/charisma in an exaggerated style to enhance his theme of full-on magical mind control. Characters find it hard to find their true judgment of such a person in their presence. So Tyrion can't resist Tywin, Robert can't resist Cersei, and plenty of people swerve into Sansa's orbit, even though she is a very small pawn in the game of thrones.)

52 minutes ago, Harry the Hair said:

I never gave much thought to when he asked for her hand, just automatically assumed he waited until she gets officially discarded and now it somehow seems important. 

I agree, it does.

Sansa is officially discarded at the handing out of rewards after the Blackwater. There's some fuzziness around LF's reward - Tyrion offered him Harrenhal, but later Tywin independently offers Harrenhal (vaguely saying LF wanted it) - and Tyrion seems to have forgotten his original offer (irrc). And at some point, LF asks Cersei for Sansa, basically asking for another reward - so it fits well with the Blackwater period, when all the loyal lords are haggling for their share of the spoils.

[Harry the Hair]

24 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I agree, it does.

Sansa is officially discarded at the handing out of rewards after the Blackwater. There's some fuzziness around LF's reward - Tyrion offered him Harrenhal, but later Tywin independently offers Harrenhal (vaguely saying LF wanted it) - and Tyrion seems to have forgotten his original offer (irrc). And at some point, LF asks Cersei for Sansa, basically asking for another reward - so it fits well with the Blackwater period, when all the loyal lords are haggling for their share of the spoils.

My logic was that maybe he asked Cersei for her hand, gets refused and then he asked for Harrenhal… but after rereading ACOK it almost looks like the whole give LF Harrenhal to marry Lysa idea was Tyrion’s and not his. But then again, if there’s anything LF is good at it’s tricking people in to thinking that something was their idea when it wasn’t.

Quote

 

"So," Lord Petyr continued after a pause, utterly unabashed, "what's in your pot for me?"

"Harrenhal."

It was interesting to watch his face. […]
Littlefinger took a moment to adjust the drape of his cape, but Tyrion had seen the flash of hunger in those sly cat's eyes. I have him, he knew. […]

Littlefinger looked like a boy who had just taken a furtive bite from a honeycomb. He was trying to watch for bees, but the honey was so sweet. "Harrenhal and all its lands and incomes," he mused. "With a stroke, you'd make me one of the greatest lords in the realm. Not that I'm ungrateful, my lord, but—why?"

"You served my sister well in the matter of the succession.

"As did Janos Slynt. On whom this same castle of Harrenhal was quite recently bestowed—only to be snatched away when he was no longer of use."

Tyrion laughed. "You have me, my lord. What can I say? I need you to deliver the Lady Lysa. I did not need Janos Slynt." He gave a crooked shrug. "I'd sooner have you seated in Harrenhal than Renly seated on the Iron Throne. What could be plainer?"

 

 

-ACOK, Tyrion IV

 

The reward ceremony looked pretty standard; they gave him what was promised and he was greatful for it. No more, no less. He cracks a couple of jokes that in retrospective now sound pretty gross.

 

Quote

 

When the herald called, "Lord Petyr Baelish," he came forth dressed all in shades of rose and plum, his cloak patterned with mockingbirds. She could see him smiling as he knelt before the Iron Throne. He looks so pleased. Sansa had not heard of Littlefinger doing anything especially heroic during the battle, but it seemed he was to be rewarded all the same.

 

Ser Kevan got back to his feet. "It is the wish of the King's Grace that his loyal councillor Petyr Baelish be rewarded for faithful service to crown and realm. Be it known that Lord Baelish is granted the castle of Harrenhal with all its attendant lands and incomes, there to make his seat and rule henceforth as Lord Paramount of the Trident. Petyr Baelish and his sons and grandsons shall hold and enjoy these honors until the end of time, and all the lords of the Trident shall do him homage as their rightful liege. The King's Hand and the small council consent."

 

On his knees, Littlefinger raised his eyes to King Joffrey. "I thank you humbly, Your Grace. I suppose this means I'll need to see about getting some sons and grandsons."

 

Joffrey laughed, and the court with him. Lord Paramount of the Trident, Sansa thought, and Lord of Harrenhal as well. She did not understand why that should make him so happy; the honors were as empty as the title granted to Hallyne the Pyromancer. Harrenhal was cursed, everyone knew that, and the Lannisters did not even hold it at present. Besides, the lords of the Trident were sworn to Riverrun and House Tully, and to the King in the North; they would never accept Littlefinger as their liege. Unless they are made to. Unless my brother and my uncle and my grandfather are all cast down and killed. The thought made Sansa anxious, but she told herself she was being silly. Robb has beaten them every time. He'll beat Lord Baelish too, if he must.

 

-ACOK, Sansa VIII

But in ASOS it sounds like LF was the one to ask Tywin for Harrenhal.

Quote

 

"Pod tells me that Littlefinger's been made Lord of Harrenhal."

"An empty title, so long as Roose Bolton holds the castle for Robb Stark, yet Lord Baelish was desirous of the honor. He did us good service in the matter of the Tyrell marriage. A Lannister pays his debts." 

The Tyrell marriage had been Tyrion's notion, in point of fact, but it would seem churlish to try to claim that now. "That title may not be as empty as you think," he warned. "Littlefinger does nothing without good reason. But be that as it may. 

 

-ASOS, Tyrion I 

And then later it looks like LF is the one to propose and take credit for the idea to marry himself to Lysa. 

Quote

 

I believe Lord Petyr may hold the key to the Eyrie."

"Oh, I do," said Littlefinger, "I have it here between my legs." There was mischief in his grey-green eyes. "My lords, with your leave, I propose to travel to the Vale and there woo and win Lady Lysa Arryn. Once I am her consort, I shall deliver you the Vale of Arryn without a drop of blood being spilled."

[…]

"It would not have been fitting for a daughter of Riverrun to marry one so far below her." Littlefingerspread his hands. "Now, though . . . a match between the Lady of the Eyrie and the Lord of Harrenhal is not so unthinkable, is it?"

Tyrion noted the look that passed between Paxter Redwyne and Mace Tyrell. "It might serve," Lord Rowan said, "if you are certain that you can keep the woman loyal to the King's Grace." 

"But can he?" asked Lord Redwyne. "Jon Arryn's son is Lord of the Eyrie now. The Lord Robert."

"Only a boy," said Littlefinger. "I will see that he grows to be Joffrey's most loyal subject, and a fast friend to us all."

Tyrion studied the slender man with the pointed beard and irreverent grey-green eyes. Lord of Harrenhal an empty honor? Bugger that, Father. Even if he never sets foot in the castle, the title makes this match possible, as he's known all along. […]

Lord Tywin turned back to Littlefinger. "If Lysa Arryn will take you for a husband and return to the king's peace, we shall restore the Lord Robert to the honor of Warden of the East.

 […]

"Perhaps we can move to a more pleasant task," said Lord Tywin. "The fruits of victory await division."

"What could be sweeter?" said Littlefinger, who had already swallowed his own fruit, Harrenhal.

 

-ASOS, Tyrion III

So one of the following series of events unfurled:

1) He asked for Sansa’s hand some time between Ned’s execution and the battle of Blackwater. After being refused, Tyrion floats by him the idea of becoming lord of Harrenhal and marrying Lysa which LF didn’t think of by himself for some reason? In other words he hoped to get Sansa after Ned croaks and that’s it, the rest of the Vale plot formed after Tyrion’s suggestion? Granted if the bread riots theory pans out then he at least made one other attempt at getting his hands on her while she was not yet married off but overall his schemes look pretty vanilla at this point. Cersei’s ADWD monologue seems to support this version of events; if he asked after getting his titles then why is he an acceptable match for Lysa but not Sansa?

2) Maybe he attempts to kidnap Sansa during the bread riots and fails. He then decides to try his luck and asks for her hand after Blackwater, gets turned down and asks for Harrenhal instead. He then proposes and takes credit for the idea to marry Lysa and proceeds with the Vale scheme.

3) He gets Harrenhal, assumes his position is now high enough to be considered a valid match for Sansa, asks Cersei to give her to him after her betrothal to Joff is broken off and some Tyrell schemes come to light (betrothal to Willas), Cersei refuses and then he proceeds with the Vale plot. This one made the most sense to me personally. 
 

But no matter which road you take, they all seem to lead to him marrying Sansa. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Unlikely - she doesn't hate the Tyrells at the time; she hasn't met them. And she can't think of any objections, except Margaery's marriage to the dead Renly.

It is borderline ridiculous, always was, at least since the death of Ned and Robb's rebellion - Sansa brings nothing but her traitor blood and her sweet self. Dance Cersei is actually more clear-headed on the subject than Game Cersei.

(What I think/hope this is about, is that grrm is portraying force of personality/charm/charisma in an exaggerated style to enhance his theme of full-on magical mind control. Characters find it hard to find their true judgment of such a person in their presence. So Tyrion can't resist Tywin, Robert can't resist Cersei, and plenty of people swerve into Sansa's orbit, even though she is a very small pawn in the game of thrones.)

I agree, it does.

Sansa is officially discarded at the handing out of rewards after the Blackwater. There's some fuzziness around LF's reward - Tyrion offered him Harrenhal, but later Tywin independently offers Harrenhal (vaguely saying LF wanted it) - and Tyrion seems to have forgotten his original offer (irrc). And at some point, LF asks Cersei for Sansa, basically asking for another reward - so it fits well with the Blackwater period, when all the loyal lords are haggling for their share of the spoils.

GRRM does seem to be telegraphing that Sansa is irresistible to all the people who meet her, like Ashara was (in the men’s case, this would be someone like Renly or Daemon Blackfyre). The TWOW sample chapter really emphasized that. Is this a theme in his other books? I’ve only read ASOIAF.

For all LF’s supposed pragmatism, he does seem to live in a fantasy land at times. He loves crafting visions of future events and getting lost in the details of the colors and music.

[Springwatch]

38 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

GRRM does seem to be telegraphing that Sansa is irresistible to all the people who meet her, like Ashara was (in the men’s case, this would be someone like Renly or Daemon Blackfyre). The TWOW sample chapter really emphasized that. Is this a theme in his other books? I’ve only read ASOIAF.

Everyone wants to own the pretty little talking bird... and she could be a queen of love and beauty type, if she gets old enough, but it feels like we're running out of time. Pod genuinely falls 'in love' with her, but he's the right age, he can.

Not sure about the other books - I don't remember magnetic personalities, but the god-hivemind-fungus things were attractive and manipulative too.

[Harry the Hair]

42 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

GRRM does seem to be telegraphing that Sansa is irresistible to all the people who meet her, like Ashara was (in the men’s case, this would be someone like Renly or Daemon Blackfyre). The TWOW sample chapter really emphasized that. Is this a theme in his other books? I’ve only read ASOIAF.

For all LF’s supposed pragmatism, he does seem to live in a fantasy land at times. He loves crafting visions of future events and getting lost in the details of the colors and music.

Harry was quite the douche to her when they first met. Yeah I get that he could have been put off by the fact that she is LF’s daughter more than anything else but still, for a society that eats and breathes chivalry that was rather uncalled for. Ser Lyn seems to dislike her quite a bit too, it could be an act… but then again it might not be (though I guess you can say he’s immune to her charm because he’s gay?). Joffrey’s Kingsguard were rather indifferent to her too. Maybe to become irresistible she needs to spend quite a bit of time in someone’s company. 
 

No supernatural events/themes were directly associated with LF up until this point of the story. As far as we can tell his only motives are undiluted lust and greed (a tad bit of wishful vengeance too perhaps). He first notices Sansa at the hand’s tourney and that’s when he seems to redirect all of his attention on to her. 
 

Quote

 

"I'm Sansa Stark," she said, ill at ease. The man wore a heavy cloak with a fur collar, fastened with a silver mockingbird, and he had the effortless manner of a high lord, but she did not know him. "I have not had the honor, my lord."

Septa Mordane quickly took a hand. "Sweet child, this is Lord Petyr Baelish, of the king's small council."

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once," the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. "You have her hair." His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away.

 

-AGOT, Sansa II

so up until this point his target was still Cat? He hoped to make her a widow (or send Ned to the wall) and swoop in with a marriage proposal but things change when he spots her young doppelgänger near KL?

[Harry the Hair]

27 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Everyone wants to own the pretty little talking bird... and she could be a queen of love and beauty type, if she gets old enough, but it feels like we're running out of time. Pod genuinely falls 'in love' with her, but he's the right age, he can.

Not sure about the other books - I don't remember magnetic personalities, but the god-hivemind-fungus things were attractive and manipulative too.

It would make sense, GRRM said all Stark kids have some sort of special abilities, maybe since Lady’s death her aptitude towards warging had to change and develop in a different way. Instead of outright taking over another person’s body she sort of merges her consciousness with theirs in a subtle way that no one notices. If that’s the case, I think she definitely needs Sandor to keep developing this skill. 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

GRRM does seem to be telegraphing that Sansa is irresistible to all the people who meet her, like Ashara was (in the men’s case, this would be someone like Renly or Daemon Blackfyre). The TWOW sample chapter really emphasized that.

Great thinking there! 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Everyone wants to own the pretty little talking bird... and she could be a queen of love and beauty type, if she gets old enough, but it feels like we're running out of time. Pod genuinely falls 'in love' with her, but he's the right age, he can.

Not sure about the other books - I don't remember magnetic personalities, but the god-hivemind-fungus things were attractive and manipulative too.

Pod fell in love with her too? I don't remember that, but I believe it.

The more I talk to other book fans, the more convinced I am that George horribly miscalculated by removing the five-year gap. Sansa reads much more like 18 in the TWOW chapter than 13, and for Arya, it's even more jarring. (There's also something to be said for how Jon doesn't think about how young Arya is when he hears about her alleged marriage to Ramsay, nor Sansa's to Tyrion. Child marriages happen, but they're not that common, especially not for a ten-year-old who probably hasn't even gotten her period yet).

2 hours ago, Harry the Hair said:

Harry was quite the douche to her when they first met. Yeah I get that he could have been put off by the fact that she is LF’s daughter more than anything else but still, for a society that eats and breathes chivalry that was rather uncalled for. Ser Lyn seems to dislike her quite a bit too, it could be an act… but then again it might not be (though I guess you can say he’s immune to her charm because he’s gay?). Joffrey’s Kingsguard were rather indifferent to her too. Maybe to become irresistible she needs to spend quite a bit of time in someone’s company. 
 

No supernatural events/themes were directly associated with LF up until this point of the story. As far as we can tell his only motives are undiluted lust and greed (a tad bit of wishful vengeance too perhaps). He first notices Sansa at the hand’s tourney and that’s when he seems to redirect all of his attention on to her. 
 

-AGOT, Sansa II

so up until this point his target was still Cat? He hoped to make her a widow (or send Ned to the wall) and swoop in with a marriage proposal but things change when he spots her young doppelgänger near KL?

Yeah, I think the "being gay" part plays a big role, especially considering that Loras is (ironically) one of the few men that doesn't fall under her spell either. With regards to the kingsguard, it could just be a way of showing how absolute obedience corrupts, or it could be that she's still too young to have fully blossomed into the enticing young woman that she is now. Sansa's beauty isn't the only thing that draws people to her; it's also her presence and charm. That's how she wins Harry over. 

2 hours ago, Harry the Hair said:

It would make sense, GRRM said all Stark kids have some sort of special abilities, maybe since Lady’s death her aptitude towards warging had to change and develop in a different way. Instead of outright taking over another person’s body she sort of merges her consciousness with theirs in a subtle way that no one notices. If that’s the case, I think she definitely needs Sandor to keep developing this skill. 

Spoiler

I believe that there is something supernatural about the Unkiss, and have always favored the idea that it was a kind of premonition/green dream. If that's the case, then the greater significance that George keeps hinting at in interviews might be that it's a set-up for Hold the Door/Hodor. The Hodor mind-splice appears to have been a closed loop: it happened because Bran was destined to make it happen. If the Unkiss is a premonition, then maybe Sansa will kiss Sandor in the future as a way of returning his affections--as she remembers it--not realizing that the kiss she recalls is the one she just initiated herself. Maybe one of the other Stark kids will also have some kind of closed-loop vision as well, and it will be part of the three-fold strategy that George is known for, cumulating in Hold the Door.

And while I know some of you don't like SanSan, I think we can all bask in the utter hilarity that it would be if Littlefinger ever found out that Sansa prefers a disfigured, landed not-knight to him 

[Corvo the Crow]

24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more I talk to other book fans, the more convinced I am that George horribly miscalculated by removing the five-year gap. Sansa reads much more like 18 in the TWOW chapter than 13, and for Arya, it's even more jarring. (There's also something to be said for how Jon doesn't think about how young Arya is when he hears about her alleged marriage to Ramsay, nor Sansa's to Tyrion. Child marriages happen, but they're not that common, especially not for a ten-year-old who probably hasn't even gotten her period yet).

Arya’s marriage you may be right but for Sansa, we now she “flowered”. Alys  is near as old as Jon, yet roughly a year ago, when the war started, she still hadn’t flowered so no marriage with Hornwood. Also we see some other marriages of even younger brides and grooms such as in the case of Hayford.

[EggBlue]

33 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Pod fell in love with her too? I don't remember that, but I believe it.

The more I talk to other book fans, the more convinced I am that George horribly miscalculated by removing the five-year gap. Sansa reads much more like 18 in the TWOW chapter than 13, and for Arya, it's even more jarring. (There's also something to be said for how Jon doesn't think about how young Arya is when he hears about her alleged marriage to Ramsay, nor Sansa's to Tyrion. Child marriages happen, but they're not that common, especially not for a ten-year-old who probably hasn't even gotten her period yet).

well , you sure know by now that I agree with you! but I wonder how and why the failed plan of 5 year gap got out! it definitely would've suited Martin better if we didn't know about it... I mean we would still be complaining about the ages as we did about them in the first book (just to a more degree) but I guess we would have accepted the utter idiocy of the ages better!

33 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

And while I know some of you don't like SanSan, I think we can all bask in the utter hilarity that it would be if Littlefinger ever found out that Sansa prefers a disfigured, landed not-knight to him 

 at least Brandon was hot and rich ! 

[Harry the Hair]

1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

well , you sure know by now that I agree with you! but I wonder how and why the planning of 5 year gap got out! it definitely would've suited Martin better if we didn't know about it... I mean we would still be complaining about the ages as we did about them in the first book (just to a more degree) but I guess we would have accept the utter idiocy of the ages better!

I mean at least Brandon was hot and rich ! 

I’ll have you know the hound had 40k gold dragons! Idk is that a little, or a lot?  

[Corvo the Crow]

8 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

41 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

I mean at least Brandon was hot and rich ! 

I just noticed, if SanSan happens, Sansa will be his bitch, as in female dog. 
I wonder if her bitchiness in the early parts of the story was a foreshadowing to this 

SanSan confirmed, this is known!

 

@Harry the Hair Someone, I think Ned, suggested Anguy to buy land with his winnings, and Crown’s total debt was a few millions. Since the Number of landed nobility in Westeros is in the low thousands, you can say it is a fortune. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

well , you sure know by now that I agree with you! but I wonder how and why the failed plan of 5 year gap got out! it definitely would've suited Martin better if we didn't know about it... I mean we would still be complaining about the ages as we did about them in the first book (just to a more degree) but I guess we would have accepted the utter idiocy of the ages better!

 at least Brandon was hot and rich ! 

Someone on reddit suggested that he could actually fix the age issue without having to rewrite anything by making the years longer (say 15 months instead of 12). This never occurred to me, probably because I don't really read sci-fi, but it would make all the characters physically older (Sansa would be about 16 now, Jon/Dany about 18, etc.) I'm willing to bet that the age problem is one of the things holding up TWOW. 

It would also help with some of the historical characters. Viserys II became a jaded, divorced dad when his wife left him at the old age of 17, and Shiera would have been about 12 or 13 when Bloodraven and Bittersteel were fighting over her.