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Sansa's Marriage Dilemma or Marriageception


Corvo the Crow
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21 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Someone on reddit suggested that he could actually fix the age issue without having to rewrite anything by making the years longer (say 15 months instead of 12). This never occurred to me, probably because I don't really read sci-fi, but it would make all the characters physically older (Sansa would be about 16 now, Jon/Dany about 18, etc.) I'm willing to bet that the age problem is one of the things holding up TWOW. 

I'm willing to accept that theory as bizarre as it is! I don't think the ages be of any major complication actually! it's not like you can , for example,  realize Arya's 11 in the feast!

21 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It would also help with some of the historical characters. Viserys II became a jaded, divorced dad when his wife left him at the old age of 17, and Shiera would have been about 12 or 13 when Bloodraven and Bittersteel were fighting over her. 

yeah Viserys II was one of the weirdest cases! and while comparing Viserys and Aegon III , Gilydan mentions Aegon not consummating his marriage is understandable in the case of 6 year old Daenaera but not 10-11 year old Jaehaera. maybe Martin has really decided to have longer years!

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I'm willing to accept that theory as bizarre as it is! I don't think the ages be of any major complication actually! it's not like you can , for example,  realize Arya's 11 in the feast!

yeah Viserys II was one of the weirdest cases! and while comparing Viserys and Aegon III , Gilydan mentions Aegon not consummating his marriage is understandable in the case of 6 year old Daenaera but not 10-11 year old Jaehaera. maybe Martin has really decided to have longer years!

Yeah, the only things it wouldn’t fix are the dragons and the length of time Bran spends training. Even if the dragons are small though, as long as they’re big enough to carry their riders then it doesn’t really matter, since they’re the only dragons around.

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It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . 

-AFFC, Alayne II

This is GRRM speaking through LF. :P Cersei’s decent in to madness was easier/faster to write than expected. 
 

To get back to the OG post, how do we fit Jon in all this? 

Quote

 

Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's."
"Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised.
"Snow? Yes, it would be Snow, I suppose."
She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, JonSnow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.
[…]
All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

-AFFC, Alayne II

She might as well have raised the Stark banner right here and then. :lol: Seems like right now he’s on her mind and that’s definitely what gives her away. News of his assassination will probably reach her in early WOW and if a daughter of LF raised by the faith in Gulltown has another emotional outburst regarding Eddard’ Stark’s bastard son that’s like strike 3. *Strike 2 was not enough pious bleating.

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I have some devotional books you can look over. Learn to quote from them. Nothing discourages unwanted questions as much as a flow of pious bleating. In any case, at your flowering you decided you did not wish to be a septa and wrote to me. 
 

 

-ASOS, Sansa VI


They will most definitely meet again but what her reaction to a resurrected Jon would be I can’t say. 
 

Idk if this was discussed but if LF told the truth and the Tyrells were in on Joff’s murder, then they must certainly know she’s with him right now and is very likely masquerading as his bastard daughter? Sansa’s reveal might not even happen in the Vale if that’s the case. Some Good Samaritan could spill the beans to Cersei in the hope of diverting her attention away from Margaery and towards a new outside conflict.
 
Also, unrelated but how cute was this scene? 
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And then they were on the other side, and Mya Stone was laughing and lifting Robert for a hug.

Stark, Arryn and Baratheon kids are getting along. Awww, so adorbs  :wub: 

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On 1/26/2022 at 12:54 AM, EggBlue said:

I'm willing to accept that theory as bizarre as it is! I don't think the ages be of any major complication actually! it's not like you can , for example,  realize Arya's 11 in the feast!

Of all the Stark children, only Rickon acts his age :P

 

On 1/26/2022 at 4:24 AM, Harry the Hair said:

Stark, Arryn and Baratheon kids are getting along. Awww, so adorbs  :wub: 

Baratheon, Arryn-Tully and Stark-Tully kids. Last time these 4 came together and got along so nice, they toppled down a king.

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On 1/24/2022 at 5:31 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I'm thinking that, unlike on the show, Sansa will plot against LF for a while before it comes to fruition. Maybe whatever his next plot for her is has her feeling used, or maybe she runs into Jeyne or Sandor (or hell, even Varys, if he decides to plant a seed of doubt) and that's when she'll start considering his actions more critically. 

Running into Jeyne is unnecessary.

All she has to do is find out "Arya" is alive and has married a Bolton bastard to strengthen the Bolton rule of the North. If you and @Harry the Hair thought that the Jon Snow outburst was telling, wait until that shoe drops.

Honestly, the shock of that is really going to make Sansa break character. Once she recovers from the shock, she's going to have a lot of questions and a lot of them are going to point back to Littlefinger. Even if she doesn't find out that "Arya" is fake for a long time, a lot of the commonly known details about the fArya situation (i.e. Littlefinger coordinated the deal between Roose Bolton and the Iron Throne, Littlefinger betraying Ned and holding him at knifepoint in open court, the Boltons were gifted with such a prestigious marriage almost immediately after the Red Wedding) are going to be discovered...and it's going to piss Sansa off.

That's when she'll really start plotting and double-dealing.

But what's really going to light a fire under her ass is when she hears that Jon has been assassinated.

Oh, oh, oh and let's not forget that the Gates of the Moon has a fully-operational weirwood tree. Dial-Up Brandon!

13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Now that I think about it. . . How is it that Sansa knows that Janos Slynt betrayed Ned but not Littlefinger? Ned’s arrest happened In front of the whole court.

That's a damn good question.

I think that's going to come up during the tourney. The whole Vale will be paying a visit and people talk.

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48 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Running into Jeyne is unnecessary.

All she has to do is find out "Arya" is alive and has married a Bolton bastard to strengthen the Bolton rule of the North. If you and @Harry the Hair thought that the Jon Snow outburst was telling, wait until that shoe drops.

Honestly, the shock of that is really going to make Sansa break character. Once she recovers from the shock, she's going to have a lot of questions and a lot of them are going to point back to Littlefinger. Even if she doesn't find out that "Arya" is fake for a long time, a lot of the commonly known details about the fArya situation (i.e. Littlefinger coordinated the deal between Roose Bolton and the Iron Throne, Littlefinger betraying Ned and holding him at knifepoint in open court, the Boltons were gifted with such a prestigious marriage almost immediately after the Red Wedding) are going to be discovered...and it's going to piss Sansa off.

That's when she'll really start plotting and double-dealing.

But what's really going to light a fire under her ass is when she hears that Jon has been assassinated.

Oh, oh, oh and let's not forget that the Gates of the Moon has a fully-operational weirwood tree. Dial-Up Brandon!

That's a damn good question.

I think that's going to come up during the tourney. The whole Vale will be paying a visit and people talk.

Littlefinger has so much plot armor that he’ll probably just tell Sansa that the girl is a fake (technically true) and that they’ll take down the Boltons after she marries Harry, as originally planned.

I would love it if Sansa overhears someone talking about Littlefinger’s betrayal of Ned though. I don’t expect him to die in TWOW, but I hope Sansa starts planning his downfall in the next book at least.

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On 1/25/2022 at 8:51 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Pod fell in love with her too? I don't remember that, but I believe it.

It's a safe bet anyway: she'd soon come to realize that Pod was as frightened of her as she was of his cousin. Whenever she spoke to him, he turned the most alarming shade of red.

Sansa is not actually that frightening, certainly not like Ilyn Payne, not even intimidating like Tyrion - so it seems Pod was frightened of talking to her.

Also, considering Pod wants to be the perfect squire to Tyrion, his actions in Feast are entirely orientated towards Sansa. (Bit like the Hound in the bread riots - supposed to be Joffrey's shield, ends up as Sansa's.)

 

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41 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

It's a safe bet anyway: she'd soon come to realize that Pod was as frightened of her as she was of his cousin. Whenever she spoke to him, he turned the most alarming shade of red.

Sansa is not actually that frightening, certainly not like Ilyn Payne, not even intimidating like Tyrion - so it seems Pod was frightened of talking to her.

Also, considering Pod wants to be the perfect squire to Tyrion, his actions in Feast are entirely orientated towards Sansa. (Bit like the Hound in the bread riots - supposed to be Joffrey's shield, ends up as Sansa's.)

 

Poor Pod. I have no idea what’s going to happen to him.

The riot was a really clever bit of writing on GRRM’s part. The Hound completely abandons Joffrey to rescue Sansa, but no one notices because of all the commotion. I missed it myself the first time I read that chapter.

GRRM does seem to be setting Sansa up as a kind of Helen of Troy-type character who draws the attention of every man she meets (or maybe George is a Dolly Parton fan and she’s more of a Jolene. They both do have red hair haha).

On a side note, it’s kind of crazy how despite having three Lannister POVs (four including Kevan), we still know so little about the Westerlands houses. It’s the only kingdom we’ve never seen, and most of the characters we meet from there are from small houses like the Paynes and the Cleganes.

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On 1/21/2022 at 8:38 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Oh and one more thing... Where do we fit Jon in all this :rofl:

Really, how does he fit in all this? Well the answers here! @EggBlue you're gonna love it!

I dug this from an old post of mine

Quote

 

Jonnel Stark, who is called one-eye and is Cregan Stark’s second son and also son of Lynara, marries his half-niece Sansa Stark.

Our Jon is referred to as his half-brother by our Sansa and he also has one eye, sort of, after Orell’s-Varamyr’s eagle attacked him. Though both of his eyes still remain intact, he got a nice scar around one. After her father Rickon died, Sansa was second in line to inherit

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Really, how does he fit in all this? Well the answers here! @EggBlue you're gonna love it!

I dug this from an old post of mine

 

I mean... I've already given "concrete proof" in form foreshadowing that Sansa will end up with Ned!!:closedeyes: why do you go over and over about Val's future boyfriend?! and more importantly why doesn't anyone else ship Saned?... or Nesa?! (what should we call it?!):P

 

edit: on a side note, someone on Youtube once mentioned that Waymar Royce -Sansa's first crush- resembles Jon... how convenient is that for Jonsa shippers?:D

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1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

I mean... I've already given "concrete proof" in form foreshadowing that Sansa will end up with Ned!!:closedeyes: why do you go over and over about Val's future boyfriend?! and more importantly why doesn't anyone else ship Saned?... or Nesa?! (what should we call it?!):P

Saned, i  think! sanity and sandor are both things it reminds me :P

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On 1/21/2022 at 3:47 PM, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Sansa's aware of it and she's aware of whether or not she could prove it.  What was said at Tyrion's trial on the subject? Didn't Shae attest to their physical estrangement at some point? I know that 90% of what she said was BS, but it was accepted at face value in that sham trial. I don't think Sansa will need outside support though, having some maester or septa inspect her could be a power move that contrasts with Cercei's reflections on Margery Tyrell going through the same experience as a victim.

With the Rise of the faith militant, It might become harder for lords and kings to annul a marriage for political purposes.

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Sansa’s political value is dependent on how powerful the Lannisters are. Obviously, any man who marries her had better have the resources to oppose the Lannisters. 
 

Tyrion’s mercenaries are not enough to compete for a kingdom, even one as unappealing and undesirable of a place as the north. It is stupid for Tyrion to risk all for a wife who never loved him. Tyrion’s only chance of winning one of the kingdoms is through serving Queen Daenerys Targaryen and hoping for a reward in return for loyal service. He can divorce Sansa as he wish after he gains power.

 

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4 hours ago, Northern Sword said:

With the Rise of the faith militant, It might become harder for lords and kings to annul a marriage for political purposes.

Non consummation isn't exactly a political reason. I don't remember the laws for annulment, but I think non consummation is a legally recognized reason for an annulment. The faith militant could however come up with their own rules, making annulments more difficult.

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8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

If you and @Harry the Hair thought that the Jon Snow outburst was telling, wait until that shoe drops

By that shoe drops I’m assuming you are referring to the shoe that fell through the moon door and is probably chilling at the bottom of the mountain next to Lysa’s corpse?
Honestly I don’t even think they need the shoe to prove LF a liar at this point.
When we look at Sansa’s testimony of Lysa’s death we get this:

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“I saw … I was with the Lady Lysa when …“ A tear rolled down her cheek. That’s good, a tear is good. ”… when Marillion … pushed her.“ 

when Marillion testifies he gives the following version of events:

Quote

“I barred the door so no one could disturb us whilst I declared my passion…”

AFFC, Sansa I

their stories never matched, Marillion looks like he was tortured in to confessing and by Sansa’s own admission she was there. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that something fishy is going on here. So idk if they’ll find her missing shoe, but they’ll definitely find holes in their story. 

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Pretty sure that the Lords Declarant are setting up the Alayne-Harry marriage as a way of arranging a Sansa-Robin marriage unbeknownst to Littlefinger and the relevant parties. And then Robin will foster with Royce while Anya Waynwood is supposed to keep custody of Sansa until Robin comes of age and the marriage can be consummated. 

But Sansa won’t want to go along with this for many reasons, not the least of which is that she’s still legally and religiously married to Tyrion. 

All that said, I also suspect that Tyrion’s marriage to Sansa will be reason he is eventually murdered in ADOS. But that’s a discussion for another day. 

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14 hours ago, glassgardens said:

Pretty sure that the Lords Declarant are setting up the Alayne-Harry marriage as a way of arranging a Sansa-Robin marriage unbeknownst to Littlefinger and the relevant parties. And then Robin will foster with Royce while Anya Waynwood is supposed to keep custody of Sansa until Robin comes of age and the marriage can be consummated. 

Ooo that would explain why both Waynwood boys are being extra friendly with her. One is pursuing her via his charm and charisma and the other is trying to land in her good graces by taking advantage of her kind and empathetic nature. 

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