Watch, Watching, Watch -- Why do movies have to end so soon?

[Annara Snow]

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I haven’t actually seen My Fair Lady but I do remember seeing others discuss it and there being a sense that it isn’t the sexist movie that it sometimes is painted as by some. 
 

https://time.com/3525216/my-fair-lady-1964/?amp=true

I’ll let others decide whether it’s true or not.

That's a good description of what Shaw's Pygmalion is. But the issue with My Fair Lady is that it completely changed the ending. It's basically a fix-it fanfic for Eliza/Higgins shippers. Shaw himself was constantly pressured by the audience to change his ending and have Eliza end up with Higgins, but was vehemently against it and wrote an entire essay on why this goes completely against the whole point of the play.

Weird that they mention that the ending undercuts the feminist angle, but don't mention it was a change from the play. It sounds like they're not familiar with the play.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Veltigar said:

A shame this didn't do well at the box-office, because I would absolutely turn up for a sequel. I love how it is incredibly campy (the fake Ruritarian accents, Kate Beckinsale's outfit, the Vatican equivalent to Q's workshop in Bond, etc.) and deadly serious at the same time (the dark tone, the epic themes, Van Helsing as the avenging angel send by God and of course the fact that 

Yeah I adore Van Helsing, one of those that whenever I see it on TV I can't help but watch.  Kevin O'Connor as Igor deserves a shout out.

[HoodedCrow]

Higgins is a remarkably bad teacher who has good techniques. Shaw writes a great ending for a play but not a Romantic musical. The musical goes way too far with Higgins. and it is forced and unrealistic. It’s a musical. Audrey Hepburn is lovely and funny. Eliza is unsinkable. Higgins is over the top, too, like one of Eliza’s hats. But if there were any realism to this, well, Higgins is gay? Eliza going to the ball is fun. Haven’t you ever felt that you could have danced all night:) Then, there is a lot of social criticism, and there is a lot of mocking. Something for everyone. Times and tastes have changed. 

[Annara Snow]

4 hours ago, Veltigar said:

I rewatched Van Helsing (2004) yesterday. It had been on my mind for months now, but I was always able to fight the urge. Yesterday I finally caved and damn it, I just do not understand this movie. How can the same film be so awesome and so dumb at the same time?

It's a damn contradictio in terminis or paradox or whatever you want to call it. A shame this didn't do well at the box-office, because I would absolutely turn up for a sequel. I love how it is incredibly campy (the fake Ruritarian accents, Kate Beckinsale's outfit, the Vatican equivalent to Q's workshop in Bond, etc.) and deadly serious at the same time (the dark tone, the epic themes, Van Helsing as the avenging angel send by God and of course the fact that 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kate Beckinsale dies at the end of it all.)

I also feel like the CGI and performances have held up remarkably well for a film that is almost 20 years old now. Anyways, you all probably know the film already, but it is still as fun as when I first saw it.

Aside from that I also managed to finish My Fair Lady (1964). I think I started it a fortnight ago, eager to delete another classic from my watchlist, but it is such an utterly repugnant film that I had to switch it off a few times and then let it rest for a lazy Sunday before I could finish it. 

I know I'll probably get flack for this, as it is seen as one of the great classic films, but I was flabbergasted throughout the entire thing. Seldom have I ever seen a film that was this brazen about its noxious ideology. They should just rename this to "MRA: The Movie" or "Red Pill Origins" or something along those lines because that is pretty much what it boils down too (although it also has some hideous things to say about class and linguistics).

Every incel should probably have a poster of the lead male character Henry Higgins on his walls because that guy is living their dream. He behaves like an entitled, arrogant and self-indulgent tool throughout the film and at the end he is rewarded with a beautiful, ideal and submissive woman whom he naturally had to create for himself, as you can't expect the girl to do that herself. I really felt a little bit dirty thinking that this film is not even 50 years old and that at that time it was popular enough to win major awards and break the box office.

It's also curious to see how this is still watched without some pretty big caveats. No one today would even think of recommending e.g. Birth of a Nation (1915) or Triumph des Willens (1935) without some serious introductory commentary on the ideas behind the films. This however gets a free pass, which is a shame, as unlike the others it is also just a pretty poor film without any major contributions to the art of cinema.

It's glacially paced, every set looks fake and the songs are just completely forgettable. Audrey Hepburn is also insufferable in perhaps the entire first quarter of the film, shrieking like a hellish vampire bride from Van Helsing rather than behaving like a real person. The one saving grace for me comes from the costuming department. Hepburn wears some outfits in the latter half of the film that are just outstanding.

I think you would prefer Pygmalion, George Bernard Shaw's play that My Fair Lady was based on. Like I said, MFL is like a fix-it fanfic of Pygmalion for people who wanted a romance between Eliza and Higgins - something Shaw was vehemently against. The play is 110 years old but is much more progressive and was written as a subversion of the Pygmalion trope of a man shaping a woman into what he wants her to be. By changing the ending, they changed the entire point of the play. 

My Fair Lady wasn't the first to do it - the 1938 film adaptation already did it  although a bit more subtly, during Shaw's lifetime. Shaw was worried because Leslie Howard- a popular romantic lead of the time - was cast as Higgins, but insisted there would be no romance between the characters, and he wrote the script himself. However, the director still managed to sneakily hint at a romantic happy end with the  staging of the final scene, even without any dialogue. And My Fair Lady was based on that movie and expanded on it. Nowadays there are more people who just know the musical and think of the story as a romcom- though it was written to be anything but.

There is a more faithful TV adaptation of Pygmalion from 1983, with Peter O'Toole and Margot Kidder.

[Veltigar]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

And that's why we watch it to this very day.  I.e. w/ all you say.  Right down to Hepburn herself, whom I used to think and adorable actor and now I go, "Why does she always look like she's drunk a quarter bottle of scotch and taken two sleeping pills?  But she is so beautiful, and wears those clothes as if they were made for her. Ha!

But I always hated Higgins even in High School, reading Shaw in class.

I hope you do so on YouTube just for efficiencies' sake  

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Not that I ever paid much attention, but I've never heard this criticism before. I have half a mind to see this now. 

It lasts three hours If you do it, know that the first hour in particular is excruciating. Don't tell me afterwards I didn't warn you  

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

My sister once told me the story of seeing that in the theater. She made a joke about "the great vampire pop" to her friend and a few people around them must have heard because they also started giggling... which started a localized chain reaction of sorts. Everyone was united in mocking this thing. It was one of those magical moments that can only happen in a movie theater.  

It's full of all these hairbrained logic fails and crazy plot elements, but the film moves along so fast and its all so campy that I feel you can live with it. 

33 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

That's a good description of what Shaw's Pygmalion is. But the issue with My Fair Lady is that it completely changed the ending. It's basically a fix-it fanfic for Eliza/Higgins shippers. Shaw himself was constantly pressured by the audience to change his ending and have Eliza end up with Higgins, but was vehemently against it and wrote an entire essay on why this goes completely against the whole point of the play.

Weird that they mention that the ending undercuts the feminist angle, but don't mention it was a change from the play. It sounds like they're not familiar with the play.

Yeah, it's a strange article.

17 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I think you would prefer Pygmalion, George Bernard Shaw's play that My Fair Lady was based on. Like I said, MFL is like a fix-it fanfic of Pygmalion for people who wanted a romance between Eliza and Higgins - something Shaw was vehemently against. The play is 110 years old but is much more progressive and was written as a subversion of the Pygmalion trope of a man shaping a woman into what he wants her to be. By changing the ending, they changed the entire point of the play. 

My Fair Lady wasn't the first to do it - the 1938 film adaptation already did it  although a bit more subtly, during Shaw's lifetime. Shaw was worried because Leslie Howard- a popular romantic lead of the time - was cast as Higgins, but insisted there would be no romance between the characters, and he wrote the script himself. However, the director still managed to sneakily hint at a romantic happy end with the  staging of the final scene, even without any dialogue. And My Fair Lady was based on that movie and expanded on it. Nowadays there are more people who just know the musical and think of the story as a romcom- though it was written to be anything but.

There is a more faithful TV adaptation of Pygmalion from 1983, with Peter O'Toole and Margot Kidder.

My favorite Pygmalion adaptation will always be She's All That (1999) with Freddie Prinze Jr. There is something about these late 90's and early 2000's high-school movies.

I remember discussing Pygmalion in lit class back in the day, but we never read it in full. I guess it is better than My Fair Lady based on what I can recollect and what you write but I have t say that I need a break from this story after those wasted three hours.

26 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah I adore Van Helsing, one of those that whenever I see it on TV I can't help but watch.  Kevin O'Connor as Igor deserves a shout out.

I'm glad to have a kindred spirit here  

[Veltigar]

Just finished watching Encanto (2021), Disney's latest. It was alright. Pretty middle of the road stuff, but I enjoyed it regardless. I do feel like they could have done more with it and I was actually more interested in the backstory of Abuela and Pedro than in anything that took place during the film's actual timeline.

For me there were three major problems. The first is the same thing I have with every one of these movies, namely I just don't like this computer animation. Some great films like Soul make it work, but the Tangled's and Encanto's of the world make it painfully clear that the older drawn stuff was so much better. The second was the fact that I thought the music was pretty unmemorable. It's the first time I watch anything Lin-Manuel Miranda related that didn't have at least one memorable song in it.

The third story had to do with the actual story

Spoiler

In my opinion, the conflict with grandmother was not drawn clearly enough. I can imagine a version of this film that is much darker, like the TIm Burton Sleepy Hollow version of this tale, but if we have to go for the kumbaya version of the story I think they should have made the grandmother's stifling perfectionism a little more obvious.

 

[Kalbear]

@Werthead- I'm pretty sure that WotC gave them their blessing because critical role did the reverse- they made a whole campaign setting for Tal Dorei. 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Kalibuster said:

@Werthead- I'm pretty sure that WotC gave them their blessing because critical role did the reverse- they made a whole campaign setting for Tal Dorei. 

They made the campaign setting for Wildemount (from Season 2) for WotC. Tal Dorei got a standalone campaign setting published through a 3rd party (which just got a second edition, in fact). They had a third campaign book coming out, their second for WotC, which focuses on the desert continent of Marquet, and I think intersects with the in-progress third season.

[john]

Watched Netflix’s Munich: The Edge of War. It’s interesting in so much as it feels like a half German half British film but there’s nothing particularly notable about the plot or the performances, although George Mackay’s German is apparently pretty good by movie standards.

Spoiler

It features a startlingly generous view of Chamberlain’s role in the Munich agreement. I’ve heard positive interpretations of this before but the film almost makes him out to be some kind of master strategist who revealed Hitler to the world by making him sign an agreement he knew he would break. I’ve never read the Robert Harris book but the two reviews I read after watching focused almost exclusively on this aspect of the film.

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

 

@john

This echos comments I made about the film. It's a contentious issue that would be a thread of its own. 

I take the view that, cunning statesman or gullible fool, Chamberlain could not have done other than what he did.  There's even a line in the film about only being able to play the cards one is dealt.

 

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, john said:

Munich: The Edge of War

Spoiler

There did seem some attempt at redeeming the received wisdom of Chamberlain's reputation going on, but half hearted at best. ya?  OTOH, one of the protags did work for him, and you have to think well of the chief.  Or something. Still, the entire plot of him and his wife was fairly dropped in a way it wasn't in the novel.  An odd sort of film, including casting, with Liv Lisa Fries in a bit role, she who was so central in Babylon Berlin.

 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

21 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Watched the first 3 episodes of The End of the F***ing World.

I really like this. Darkly comedic. Indie film vibe. Great performances from the leading duo. It's almost shaping up to be some kind of teenage Bonnie and Clyde or something.  Though it's probably not going anywhere obvious. Great show. 

Just finished the first season. Fantastic. Engaging. Incredibly funny. Brilliant show.  

[TheLastWolf]

Finally watched Cleopatra, Jo Mank's Liz Taylor one. 4 hr 3 min version. Phew, what a marathon, splendid sets and acting, nice screenplay but yet it had the staged play like moments despite the infamous budget...

[Ramsay B.]

Just finished ep 4 of new Gomorrah. 
 

Spoiler

The Immortal is Back

Great ending! Genny looked like he was having an aneurysm reading it.

 

[Mindwalker]

I watched the first two episodes of Trigger Point. Was interested after the first one, but it's boring, the bomb stuff is ridiculously unrealistic, and I keep trying to find a plot.

[aceluby]

Forgot that I have also seen Encanto like 20 times and I just love it.  It's a movie that seems to get better on rewatch and the songs are just awesome.  My one year old dances every time he hears them, and Don't Talk About Bruno is a banger.  There are so many little things that are just hilarious, but easily missed on the first viewing.  A great example is during one of the songs the sister is carrying a bunch of donkeys, and by the end they turn into her backup dancers like at a Super Bowl halftime show.  So ridiculous and gets me every time.  So yeah, big fans over at the Luby household.

[RumHam]

Started season four of Ozark

Spoiler

Why does it feel like the Marty + Wendy scenes pick up moments after season three ended, while in the other plot lines act like at least days if not weeks have passed? A P.I. is looking for Helen because she "dropped off the face of the earth?" At most it's been three days. I like the show well enough but it's always been weirdly sloppy. Like last season when they establish it'll take four months for the poppy crop to grow and then they're grown in the final scene with the Langmores.

 

[Jaxom 1974]

22 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Just finished watching Encanto (2021), Disney's latest. It was alright. Pretty middle of the road stuff, but I enjoyed it regardless. I do feel like they could have done more with it and I was actually more interested in the backstory of Abuela and Pedro than in anything that took place during the film's actual timeline.

For me there were three major problems. The first is the same thing I have with every one of these movies, namely I just don't like this computer animation. Some great films like Soul make it work, but the Tangled's and Encanto's of the world make it painfully clear that the older drawn stuff was so much better. The second was the fact that I thought the music was pretty unmemorable. It's the first time I watch anything Lin-Manuel Miranda related that didn't have at least one memorable song in it.

The third story had to do with the actual story

  Hide contents

In my opinion, the conflict with grandmother was not drawn clearly enough. I can imagine a version of this film that is much darker, like the TIm Burton Sleepy Hollow version of this tale, but if we have to go for the kumbaya version of the story I think they should have made the grandmother's stifling perfectionism a little more obvious.

 

Whaaaa...?  Interesting.  I'm gonna go ahead and vehemently disagree with both those first two points.  There is something special about the old school, hand drawn animation; there I agree, however, the stuff they're doing now though?  It's gotten progressively better with each and every movie in the last dozen years or so.  And the music?  It's fantastic.  Just amazing on so many levels.

I will, grudging accept the third point, as I do think there could have been a touch more there...but I need to re-watch and decide how much.

In all though, I was struck on how the heroine was, essentially, the most ordinary person among the special family.  And despite that, despite not having a magical gift bestowed upon her, she proved to be the most remarkable one of them all.  She wasn't a princess.  She didn't become a princess.  She was gifted in a such a way that she didn't even know she was gifted.  And how she went about things and solved things...and most importantly how that seems to have resonated with my 10 year old daughter...that's the most amazing aspect of it all.  

 

9 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Finally watched Cleopatra, Jo Mank's Liz Taylor one. 4 hr 3 min version. Phew, what a marathon, splendid sets and acting, nice screenplay but yet it had the staged play like moments despite the infamous budget...

This one, along with a couple others, like Ben Hur, get regular re-watches from me every three to four years.  There's something about those marathon length classics...

 

 

Otherwise, am I the only one who has been giving How I Met Your Father a try...?  I'm going to stick it through to the end of the season, at the minimum, but it's lacking something in the early chemistry...

[Nictarion]

The Righteous Gemstones is really killing it this season. I thought the actor that played young Nucky Thompson on the final season of Boardwalk Empire did a great job mimicking Steve Buscemi, but the kid who played young Jesse in this Xmas Gemstones flashback was just uncanny how well he did Danny McBride. Young Judy was a lot of fun, too. 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

This one, along with a couple others, like Ben Hur, get regular re-watches from me every three to four years.  There's something about those marathon length classics...

Ya.  The first time watching Cleopatra, beside being struck by  the stage mode delivery of their lines by several of the actors, which, as several of them  were indeed stage actors before acting in the movies was How We Do It -- I was struck by how much more natural/easy actors of my present day appeared to be in the short military tunics showing so much leg, and in sandals than these classic fellow of the theater. 

I think Cleopatra was the first dvd I ever bought.  It was on sale at Tower Video Rental, I think.