Val, Morna and Jon of House Weirwood

[kissdbyfire]

@Curled Finger, since you bring up the awesome women of Bear Island, I thought I’d leave this here…

ADwD, The King’s Prize

"Do you have brothers?" Asha asked her keeper.

"Sisters," Alysane Mormont replied, gruff as ever. "Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered."

"The Red Wedding."

A stab at me, Asha thought, but let it be. "You are wed."

"No. My children were fathered by a bear." Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. "Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows."

Asha smiled back. "Mormont women are all fighters too."

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Curled Finger, since you bring up the awesome women of Bear Island, I thought I’d leave this here…

ADwD, The King’s Prize

"Do you have brothers?" Asha asked her keeper.

"Sisters," Alysane Mormont replied, gruff as ever. "Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered."

"The Red Wedding."

A stab at me, Asha thought, but let it be. "You are wed."

"No. My children were fathered by a bear." Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. "Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows."

Asha smiled back. "Mormont women are all fighters too."

That's a great story and chalk it up to the Mormont mystique!  

[Corvo the Crow]

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Corvo the Crow, no snark but I’m sticking to what I said up thread in this case:

IMHO this is one of those things where readers think of a desired or “cool” outcome, then work backwards to try to prove it

Except I didn't think "oh how cool it would be if Mel were to be Brynden's daughter" and tried to fit them together, it starts with reading Shiera's  heartshaped face, which isn't even in the books but was part of a SSM, so it doesn't fall into that category.

It may, however fall into another one I have mentioned in another thread yesterday, that is, because GRRM likes to hide hints everywhere and he overuses this, people connect dots that weren't meant to be connected. The dots do exist, they aren't imagined ones, but just weren't there to be connected and are in fact not related to eachother.

 

Words being used in a certain fashion or describing only certain things etc has been one of the pillars of many a theory and is accepted. Heart shaped face is only used 5 times in the main story and of this 4 are Mel and 1 is Jeyne. It is also well known that families carry certain features and they preserve this not over generations but for hundreds or thousands of years, you can check my signature to find a list of such traits and the members carrying them, such as a Dondarrion being red-gold haired in Dunk's time, just as Beric is today, to give an example that both has a several generation interval and is not from one of the main families. Connection to Bloodraven only came later on, because for the longest of times I haven't considered her as an albino but it only occured to me much later that she has pale skin, and red eyes and while her hair isn't white hair dyes exist in ASOIAF and her hair is specifically mentioned not to be "orange or strawberry color of common red-haired men, but a deep burnished copper". Pale skin, Red eyes and a hair that is not the common red hair, could well be dye, making her an albino with her red eyes and like heart shaped  faces, there are only so many albinos, with Bloodraven being the most famous (human) one. Oh what a coincidence it is, then, that of the few albinos, the most renowned(again, only among the human ones, ghost is the most famous one) being a lover of one of the only three women with heart shaped faces and of the two other women one is much older than she seems to be.

 

Whether you want it or not, dots are all there for you to connect. Whether they are hidden details that were really intended to be connected or not, that I can not tell, as I said GRRM has so overused this, it is no wonder that there are connections being made that weren't meant to be connected between details that were not intended to be related and this may very well be one such.

[Corvo the Crow]

So this appeared in my google search while searching for something entirely unrelated. Putting it here as it might be interesting since my thread itself is of a proposed matrilineal dynasty.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Some not on page support towards the existence of a matrilineal house of Westeros.

 

Firstly, let's start with getting this off, Jon is "Azor Ahai reborn", or Red Rahloo is one tricksy god playing with devout followers

Quote

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched.

Warning, minor Wheel of Time spoilers

Spoiler

Having watched the Wheel of Time series, which seems to have also been an inspiration to a degree has the prophesied hero Dragon Reborn. Prophesied heroes are quite common in fantasy, of course, but this series start with several possible Dragon Reborns and even a false one, a powerful king. The boy who was revealed to be actually the Dragon Reborn was not who he thought he was. Like Jon Snow, his identity was secret, like him, his mother had died in birth, like him he was raised as a son by someone else. Having drawn the connection between the two, what is the supportive evidence? The said boys mother was the queen of a matriarchal monarchy. 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Corvo the Crow]

Val belong together with Ghost

Quote

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

And who does Ghost belong to?

Quote

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. “Ghost?” He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. “Ghost!” he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. “Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

The Old Gods, of course. So belonging together with Ghost, Val belongs to the Old Gods.

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Willam Stark]

@Corvo the Crow 

 

Could you elaborate on this theory? Who is the founder of House Weirwood? Do you have a family tree in mind? 

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

@Corvo the Crow 

 

Could you elaborate on this theory? Who is the founder of House Weirwood? Do you have a family tree in mind? 

Elaborate how?

I have no idea on the founder but assume it would go back to the time of Long Night. People have claimed Val and Dalla are members of an order so perhaps an Order of White Sisters like the Black Brothers was also part of the Watch.

No family tree in mind since we don't know Val's or Morna's mothers and on jon's side we can only go as far back as Arya Flint.

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[Corvo the Crow]

Something I've just noticed to be relevant to this thread

Quote

“Nor me.” There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. “Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I’ve come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall.” He touched the horn again. “If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more …”

“But once the Wall is fallen,” Dalla said, “what will stop the Others?”

Mance gave her a fond smile. “It’s a wise woman I’ve found. A true queen.” He turned back to Jon. “Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days.”

People always peck at this sentence's first half and only the first half, with there claims of Val and Dalla not being actual sisters but sisters of a priestly order of sorts or in addition to being sisters by blood sisters of a priestly sisterhood, but I can't remember ever seeing that someone pecking at the latter half.

Rest of the conversation is also interesting

Quote

Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? “Are you a true king?” Jon asked suddenly.

“I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don’t become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they’d sooner fight than follow.”

Jon asks Mance if he's a true king and he tells his birth is as low as a man's can get, his birth, mind you, he continues, telling what Dalla wears but not telling her birth. He also tells about how you become a King-beyond-the-Wall, but that's about it, what it takes to be the Queen? We don't know. I think what's left out is as important as what is said.

 

So Mance isn't a true king and is of the lowest birth, but what if Dalla is, as Mance says, a true queen? It would make Val the Wildling Princess indeed and would explain Stannis' insistence on keeping to call her a princess.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[SaffronLady]

On 3/10/2023 at 3:40 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

So Mance isn't a true king and is of the lowest birth, but what if Dalla is, as Mance says, a true queen? It would make Val the Wildling Princess indeed and would explain Stannis' insistence on keeping to call her a princess.

But what makes a true queen by wildling standards? Magic? Wisdom? Sisterhood in the House of the Weirwood?

And how would Stannis know about all that though? If this standard could move him, then I suppose it is something he could agree with, but then again, what is it? It wouldn't be particularly religious given what we know of the man, but that might be the only solid thing.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

But what makes a true queen by wildling standards? Magic? Wisdom? Sisterhood in the House of the Weirwood?

And how would Stannis know about all that though? If this standard could move him, then I suppose it is something he could agree with, but then again, what is it? It wouldn't be particularly religious given what we know of the man, but that might be the only solid thing.

Well, Mance just talks about what would make a true king according to Jon’s Westerosi point of view, so I’d assume when he speaks about finding a true queen, it is one by Westerosi standarts and not Wildling standarts.

As for Stannis, he spends more time with Mance than Jon did and Mance tells him stuff. Wildlings remember things people south of the wall forgot, or so they claim. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Corvo the Crow

[SaffronLady]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well, Mance just talks about what would make a true king according to Jon’s Westerosi point of view, so I’d assume when he speaks about finding a true queen, it is one by Westerosi standarts and not Wildling standarts.

Fair point. Maybe Mance was not giving a clue there.

From a pragmatic point, weirwood faces probably should be displayed on a dark-colored background. Weirwood is white, after all, so it would stand out, instead of becoming something like the mess the Darrys made of their own sigil.

[Corvo the Crow]

28 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Fair point. Maybe Mance was not giving a clue there.

I think GRRM was giving a hint there.

28 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

From a pragmatic point, weirwood faces probably should be displayed on a dark-colored background. Weirwood is white, after all, so it would stand out, instead of becoming something like the mess the Darrys made of their own sigil.

Were we told about the color scheme of KotLT’s shield or given a hint? Stark coloring isn’t good either, grey on white so if this is also a mess I wouldn’t be surprised

[SaffronLady]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Were we told about the color scheme of KotLT’s shield or given a hint?

No, which was why I was hoping the designers could take a thing or two from the Blackwood's banner.

[Evolett]

The answer to the mystery behind the weirwood "heraldry" given by GRRM to the KotLT, Val, Morna and possibly Dalla is quite simple, imo. There is no House Weirwood and there may not be an order of priestesses either, well perhaps, though not in the way we might imagine it. I think these women are connected because they are "she-wolves" of the "wolf-blood." There are several clues to this. 

Morna of the weirwood mask is a warrior witch. The only other warrior witch mentioned across all books related to aSoIaF is Nymeria. We have no idea if Nymeria of the Rhoynar had the wolf-blood but it's an interesting thought. Nymeria is Arya's she-wolf however, Arya herself of the wolf-blood and though she's not a warrior in the classical sense, she, like Lyanna, aspired to be one. Once she's done with the FM and along with her powers, she'll deserve the title "warrior witch" herself. The wolf-blood is probably what makes a warg / skinchanger and skinchanging allows the taking on of different identities, be they in human or animal form. Morna offering to be Jon's man or woman is thus another clue. Bran can be Bran the Broken or he can be Hodor the Giant without anyone being the wiser. 

 

Val is a spearwife, also warrior woman. She also carries many subtle skinchanging references. The white bearskin outfit she wears  reminds us of the "skinchanger" Mormont women:

Quote

“No. My children were fathered by a bear.” Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. “Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows.” Asha smiled back. “Mormont women are all fighters too.”

 

 Varamyr's bear, the one that hated being skinchanged and that he lost control of upon Mel's magical attack was a white she-bear. Varamyr lost control of his she-bear and shadow-cat right in the tent where Dalla was giving birth with Val and Jon present. My guess is at  that moment, the tent held 4 wargs - two men and two women (if Dalla was also a she-wolf - I think she was). 

But there's more convincing evidence for Val being a she-wolf:

Quote

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together.

..............

 It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely. “Have you been trying to steal my wolf?” he asked her. “Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter. Even crows.”

 

 

Lyanna never had a wolf but she had the wolf-blood and was a "she-wolf". She was temperamental and willful because of it, practiced at fighting with swords and like the other examples here, can be classified as a "warrior woman." 

Because of Ghost's white fur and red eyes, Jon thinks of his direwolf as "belonging to the weirwood." Perhaps not all wargs "belong to the weirwood" because only one in a thousand skinchangers can be a greenseer." Who can of course access the weirwood and its secrets. Thus Ghost, a he-wolf this time, is another clue to the weirwood "heraldry". 

As far as I can tell, the weirwood "heraldry" marks women who carry the wolf-blood and that little bit extra that will enable them or their offspring to become greenseers. Personally, I believe the women in question are very significant because the "wolf-blood" is only passed on through females, making those GRRM has marked with weirwood imagery both rare and important. I'm not sure they belong to a special order, certainly not south of the Wall, but it may be different up North where old traditions are lived by the people.