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UK Politics: Gray's Anatomy


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12 minutes ago, A wilding said:

So you are following Johnson's line that it is complete co-incidence that it happened to be Starmer, that it happened now, and that some of the demonstrators were shouting that he was a paedophile protector and shouting Saville's name. (Hopefully you are not going along with them in lying about what Johnson actually said though.) And you are following this line despite even some Tories saying that it is nonsense,

We will have to disagree then. But I see this as an interesting bellwether - if you are prepared to defend Johnson over this, then his tactic may have worked well enough that he may now last a little longer, to the further detriment of our democracy..

No I'm following the actual events and reading the news. I'm not even defending Boris on this. It's just a plain fact that those protesters were there to 'end all jab mandates and programs in the UK and the world'. They didn't just protest Starmer but were wandering around London. Go look it up. 

Boris' Saville comments were stupid and he shouldn't have said them, but its also nonsense to suppose that this protest was because of what he said. The facts simply don't support it. 

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1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

Boris' Saville comments were stupid and he shouldn't have said them, but its also nonsense to suppose that this protest was because of what he said. The facts simply don't support it. 

The protest did not start because of what Johnson said.  But they swarmed Starmer because of what Johnson said.

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6 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Them shouting "Jimmy Saville" and other related slurs was my first clue.

And all the things they shouted about new world order and vaccines didn't maybe give you a bit of a hint about why the might be there? 

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1 minute ago, A wilding said:

You are merely disagreeing with the disparate and large numbers of people who are blaming him for it ...

Are you in any way surprised that there are a large number of people who would want to use this as an opportunity to blame him for it? 

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

And all the things they shouted about new world order and vaccines didn't maybe give you a bit of a hint about why the might be there? 

I have no problem with them protesting whatever loony cause they wish to - that is their right.

They do not have the right to harass and mob a politician.  They moved on from whatever their original intentions were to  quite dangerous mobbing.  And it is clear they were inspired by and using the Prime Minister's words.

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2 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I have no problem with them protesting whatever loony cause they wish to - that is their right.

But only if they don't annoy anyone...

 

Sorry, channelling my inner Priti there - what a horrifying thought!

Edited by Which Tyler
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4 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

But only if they don't annoy anyone...

 

Sorry, channelling my inner Priti there - what a horrifying thought!

Yikes!  

Horrible thought: I hope this horrific incident does not help push that awful Bill through the Commons.

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14 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Are you in any way surprised that there are a large number of people who would want to use this as an opportunity to blame him for it? 

A nice way to dodge the point. Topped off with the the usual implication that the views of people you disagree with can automatically be discounted.

18 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

And all the things they shouted about new world order and vaccines didn't maybe give you a bit of a hint about why the might be there? 

We know from the USA how it works. "New world order", "deep state" and "paedophiles" are all synonymous to these nutters, and since the pandemic "vaxxers" has been added to the list. Johnson's "paedophile protector" slur tapped into all this.

And Johnson knew this perfectly well, which is why, backed into a corner, he came out with it out of the blue. As we know from the advisor who finally developed a conscience and resigned, this was not off the cuff, but was a preplanned move made to achieve the effect it did.

And the move has probably even been successful. He has got a backlash, but it is mostly from "the usual suspects" who are never going to support him, and on the whole his base is rallied and energised by seeing the left being riled up. Some of them will have been further energised by seeing Starmer being mobbed even. And meanwhile the far right are being added to his support, a not insignificant factor for a Tory leader these days, especially when they are being bolstered by messages being sent out that far right views are acceptable.

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6 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I have no problem with them protesting whatever loony cause they wish to - that is their right.

They do not have the right to harass and mob a politician.  They moved on from whatever their original intentions were to  quite dangerous mobbing.  And it is clear they were inspired by and using the Prime Minister's words.

Dangerous mobbing is not unusual for these people, they have been going around police stations and vaccination centres pulling all kinds of crazy stunts and reeling off nonsense about investigation numbers. Its important to understand who these people are and what they have been doing recently to get some perspective and context. 

It's not surprising that the story being fed to the media is that this is all about Boris and his Saville comments, but just go and watch the video. Dozens of people shouting 'traitor' some spouting off about the new world order... one guy says something about Saville and protecting paedophiles.. but thats the thing that is the main headline. You don't think that is a little bit curious?

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1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

Dangerous mobbing is not unusual for these people, they have been going around police stations and vaccination centres pulling all kinds of crazy stunts and reeling off nonsense about investigation numbers. Its important to understand who these people are and what they have been doing recently to get some perspective and context. 

It's not surprising that the story being fed to the media is that this is all about Boris and his Saville comments, but just go and watch the video. Dozens of people shouting 'traitor' some spouting off about the new world order... one guy says something about Saville and protecting paedophiles.. but thats the thing that is the main headline. You don't think that is a little bit curious?

Do I think that the Prime Minister spouting far right conspiracy theories in the House of Commons is curious?  Well, that's one word for it!

Do I think that the fact the media have not shied away from highlighting how the Prime Minister's words were used by a mob harassing the Leader of the Opposition?  No - I think this is responsible reporting.  The media should point out every single bit of far right conspiracy nonsense that comes out of Johnson's mouth - particularly if it is then regurgitated by a mob.   

(Ideally the press would report every Johnson lie, but I realise they have to cover other news as well - and they only have 24 hours of coverage per day.)

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2 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Do I think that the fact the media have not shied away from highlighting how the Prime Minister's words were used by a mob harassing the Leader of the Opposition?  No - I think this is responsible reporting.  The media should point out every single bit of far right conspiracy nonsense that comes out of Johnson's mouth - particularly if it is then regurgitated by a mob.   

They were used by one person in a mob of many people. Is it truthful to say that he was mobbed because of what Boris said?

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5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

They were used by one person in a mob of many people. Is it truthful to say that he was mobbed because of what Boris said?

I've just watched the footage on the BBC website - your hearing is better than mine!  There is definitely one very loud person.  But I do not see how you can say with certainty that none of the other babblers were not shouting similar.

But frankly - I am going to blame the anger and aggression displayed on Johnson.  He gave them licence to behave in this way.

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Instead of asking disingenuous questions, you might instead reply to a simple one: 

Do you believe that Boris Johnson's public repetition of a conspiracy theory allegation against Keir Starmer (that Johnson knows to be unfounded and inflammatory) contributed at all to the incident last night - specifically, to the way that protest turned physical and personal, not to the fact that there was a protest at all?

If no, then fair enough. That is a thing that a person could believe, much as one might believe any number of silly things.

If yes, then presumably you believe the PM should apologise. It would be weird if not. 

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5 minutes ago, mormont said:

Instead of asking disingenuous questions, you might instead reply to a simple one: 

Do you believe that Boris Johnson's public repetition of a conspiracy theory allegation against Keir Starmer (that Johnson knows to be unfounded and inflammatory) contributed at all to the incident last night - specifically, to the way that protest turned physical and personal, not to the fact that there was a protest at all?

If no, then fair enough. That is a thing that a person could believe, much as one might believe any number of silly things.

If yes, then presumably you believe the PM should apologise. It would be weird if not. 

Well no I don't believe it, and for very good reasons:
 

1. This mob had been hounding journalists and politicians for quite some time, Starmer is far from alone in this. They've been pushing into police stations and vaccination centres as well.
2. The stated aim of the groups organisers is to take down the government and opposition over their support for vaccine mandates and lockdown measures. 
3. The overwhelming majority of people were calling Starmer a traitor, It seems only one person in that large crowd said anything about Saville. 

You just have to ask yourself, if Boris hadn't made that comment last week, would this have happened. I would suggest nothing would be different, because these loonies have been doing this for a while and its obvious to anyone with eyes what they are protesting about. 

You also have to ask yourself why you are so quick to blame Boris for this when the overwhelming body of evidence suggests it's really not connected to what he said. You don't think your own innate biases are preventing you from seeing reality clearly? 

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2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well no I don't believe it, and for very good reasons:
 

1. This mob had been hounding journalists and politicians for quite some time, Starmer is far from alone in this. They've been pushing into police stations and vaccination centres as well.
2. The stated aim of the groups organisers is to take down the government and opposition over their support for vaccine mandates and lockdown measures. 
3. The overwhelming majority of people were calling Starmer a traitor, It seems only one person in that large crowd said anything about Saville. 

.....

You also have to ask yourself why you are so quick to blame Boris for this when the overwhelming body of evidence suggests it's really not connected to what he said. You don't think your own innate biases are preventing you from seeing reality clearly? 

Sorry - snipped some stuff.

I saw the footage of Reese-Mogg and Gove needing a police escort.  You know what? I lay the blame for that at Johnson's door too.

The latest Starmer incident is just that: the latest of many.  

Why do mobs feel that they are allowed to assault our politicians?  Because of the new toxicity in our politics.  And that is down to Johnson.

And the reason I blame Johnson for the Starmer assault in particular - and blame him as a person, not blame our politics as a whole - is because he knew who he was speaking to when he mentioned Saville.  He knew exactly what he was doing.  And he gave those people the ammunition and permission.

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2 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Why do mobs feel that they are allowed to assault our politicians?  Because of the new toxicity in our politics.  And that is down to Johnson.

Really? It's like you've excluded pretty much all other events in the last 5-10 years. Bizarre comment. 
 

Quote

And the reason I blame Johnson for the Starmer assault in particular - and blame him as a person, not blame our politics as a whole - is because he knew who he was speaking to when he mentioned Saville.  He knew exactly what he was doing.  And he gave those people the ammunition and permission.

Do you accept they were an anti vaxx protest group protesting about vaccinations and lockdowns? If you don't want to accept reality then I don't know what else to say to you

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