Craster is a Stark

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Gilly will be the first of the Starks to meet Dany then.  She has Mance Rayder's son with her on the Cinnamon Wind. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Jon is the perfect reincarnation of the Night King and Arya is the equivalent of the Corpse bride.  I mean, Arya is surrounded by death.  She kills people.  She works in a house of the dead.  She is literally the queen of corpses.  The Night's King was a Stark.  The Others are his children.  Craster also contributes his boys to the population of the Others.  The connection is very strong that Craster is also a Stark. 

[Finley McLeod]

On 1/28/2022 at 6:29 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I posted on this subject matter in 2016.  My post has been archived and no longer available but here is a link to the discussion.

The Night's King came from House Stark.  The corpse queen, who I believe will be Arya in this iteration, carefully chose this one man to be her mate.  Genetic compatibility is the reason.  They had surviving offsprings and those are the ancestors of the White Walkers.  The Starks, Craster, and the White Walkers share DNA.  Moreover, Craster is a Stark. 

Allow me to post again, for those who cannot open the link to the 2016 thread:

 

He was confident of his safety while the other wildlings were scared.  Craster and the Starks came from the Nightsking.  That's why they never harmed him.  The Others will find Jon's lifeless form and recognize him for a relative of Craster and resurrect him. 

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/30/2022 at 9:04 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It's very possible yes. If Lyanna was pregnant for two years.

Sigh.  I guess you're assuming that Jon was born at the time of the battle at the tower of joy.  

Which I suppose is a reasonable assumption, except for the fact that GRRM in an odd moment of forthrightness seems to cast considerable doubt on that:

Quote

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

We also have a pretty good idea as to when Dany had to have been conceived, which is when Jaime and Jon Darry stood guard, as Aerys raped her, the same day that Aerys burned Chelsted.

For Jon Darry to have stood guard, Dany's conception had to have occurred some time before the Battle of the Trident, in fact some time before the army even left for the Battle of the Trident.  And it seems that GRRM is lining up Jon's birth roughly with Dany's conception.

In summary, I don't know if there would have been time for anyone to have conceived a child with Lyanna before her abduction, but Jon's birth certainly didn't occur two years after her abduction.  It also seems impossible that Jon would have been born at the time of the Tower of Joy based on this time frame by GRRM.

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:56 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

He sure doesn’t look like one. Also it’s commonly known that he’s a ranger’s get, should that ranger have been a Stark, I think her methet would’ve been sent to Winterfell despite being a wildling and not shooed away.

 

Even Walder is more like to be a Stark than Craster.

Yea, I think that's the biggest problem here.  GRRM has gone out of his way to create a "Stark look".  Long face, dark brown hair, grey eyes, slender build.  Craster on the other hand:

Quote

Craster’s sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold. He looked to be a powerful man, though well into the winter of his days now, his mane of hair grey going to white. A flat nose and a drooping mouth gave him a cruel look, and one of his ears was missing.

Craster himself seems to see Jon as having the prototypical Stark look:

Quote

“Who’s this one now?” Craster said before Jon could go. “He has the look of a Stark.”

 

[The Mourning Knight]

I guess this could be true but I don’t see any anything that consequential or exciting about this as a reveal. 
 

I’m really hoping that the Night’s King (if he shows up at all) is every bit as complicated as the rest of GRRM’s characters and not a one dimensional end boss. That he is a Stark could be mildly interesting, but with the blood of the first men all intermingled in the North (and throughout all Westeros, to be honest) I don’t see how or why it is imperative that the Others must be all be of House Stark and a “Craster Stark” reveal necessary. 
 

I always found Jon’s story and tenure as LC of the Watch analogous with the story of the Night’s King. Romance with an enemy from beyond the wall. Rumoured to have unnatural powers. Using his power as LC to “evil” ends. Stopped by the “heroism” of his fellow Men of the Watch. If the victors write history, I could imagine the legend of Jon Snow sounding an awful lot like the legend of the Night’s King. Look at how the Freys would have you remember the Red Wedding or how Robert Baratheon would have you imagine Rhaegar…

I’m hoping this pattern of twisted legends and the similarities between Jon and the Nights King are the author’s way of suggesting there is another side to the motivations and person we call the Night’s King. 

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

He was confident of his safety while the other wildlings were scared.  Craster and the Starks came from the Nightsking.  That's why they never harmed him.  The Others will find Jon's lifeless form and recognize him for a relative of Craster and resurrect him. 

Bumping up dumpsterfires after months, you could have at least pretended to post something worthwhile for courtesy.

[Craving Peaches]

I'm not sure about this. I don't see what it would really add either given that Craster is dead and no special resemblance was noted between him and the Starks as far as I remember. 

Also, this thread doesn't seem like it was created to have a proper discussion, but rather to go on about how evil Jon and the Starks are.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, this thread doesn't seem like it was created to have a proper discussion, but rather to go on about how evil Jon and the Starks are.

 

[The Mourning Knight]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

Also, this thread doesn't seem like it was created to have a proper discussion, but rather to go on about how evil Jon and the Starks are.

As someone who roots for the Starks and likes Jon, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to question the decency of the Starks. If I was forced to choose the best thing about these stories, it’s the complexity of the characters and how GRRM can take a character that at first glance appears one way, and totally flip the script on how we view them. Jamie Lannister is probably the best example of this. 
 

With the Starks being the obvious “good guys” (ugh how I hate using that term in ASOIAF) I think a little criticism, even hard hitting criticism is totally appropriate in keeping with the theme of GRRMs writing. 
 

In a previous post I was dismissive of the “Craster Stark” theory, but one angle that could make it interesting is that Gillie’s babe is still in play. If that baby is a Stark, there is something interesting in that. Especially with the inheritance of Winterfell not being totally certain. But I’m really stretching it here because I just don’t think Craster is a Stark. 

[the trees have eyes]

This whole thing honestly baffles me.

The only reason to connect The Night King with the Starks is Old Nan's ghost story told to Bran to give him the creeps.  In other words, if you don't see Old Nan as something magical or the Mystic Meg of Westeros, nothing at all.

Warging or greenseeing are rare abilities that are connected to bloodlines but the Starks as a bloodline are hardly unique in this.  Borroq, Varamyr, Haggon, Bloodraven are all examples who have nothing to do with the Starks.

Even then, what The Others are and how they control the wights is unknown.  There is no reason to presume reanimating and controlling a legion of corpses is a special warg ability.

There is no reason to suppose Craster is a Stark.  As the son of a ranger we would need a suitable Stark ancestor a generation before Benjen to even be in the NW, something we have no indication of. 

Craster propitiates "The Cold Gods" with sacrifices and is known as a friend to The Watch, in other words he plays it both ways.  He's an ambiguous bit part character with little page time who died several books previously.

If Monster has this magical bloodline then so do all his brothers.  That would make Bran the ultimate red herring and the whole Leaf wandering the 7K looking for "the Bran boy" when there's a greenseer factory north of The Wall a colossal misunderstanding.  Why not try and poach one of them rather than let The Others take them all?

The NK is supposed to have married a female Other.  That defies interpretation at present but a corpse bride would be more Lady Stoneheart than Arya.

Where's all this Brandon and Lyanna incest talk coming from?  It's totally unsupported.

I understand this sounds dark and subversive and turns our understanding and expectations on their heads, hence it's appeal, but it seems like it rests on one leap after another.

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, The Mourning Knight said:

As someone who roots for the Starks and likes Jon, I think it’s perfectly acceptable to question the decency of the Starks. If I was forced to choose the best thing about these stories, it’s the complexity of the characters and how GRRM can take a character that at first glance appears one way, and totally flip the script on how we view them. Jamie Lannister is probably the best example of this. 
 

With the Starks being the obvious “good guys” (ugh how I hate using that term in ASOIAF) I think a little criticism, even hard hitting criticism is totally appropriate in keeping with the theme of GRRMs writing. 
 

In a previous post I was dismissive of the “Craster Stark” theory, but one angle that could make it interesting is that Gillie’s babe is still in play. If that baby is a Stark, there is something interesting in that. Especially with the inheritance of Winterfell not being totally certain. But I’m really stretching it here because I just don’t think Craster is a Stark. 

There's nothing wrong with questioning the decency of the Starks, I just don't think that, having read the previous posts, that a lot of people are really interested in this nuance. I got the impression that quite a few people were not interested in a serious discussion of the Starks, but wanted more ammunition for their 'Jon is evil' claims. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of the Starks but instead the same people make baseless accusations such as Jon is the New Night's king who will lead the Others to kill everyone in Westeros and so will all the other Starks etc.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 1/28/2022 at 6:29 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I posted on this subject matter in 2016.  My post has been archived and no longer available but here is a link to the discussion.

The Night's King came from House Stark.  The corpse queen, who I believe will be Arya in this iteration, carefully chose this one man to be her mate.  Genetic compatibility is the reason.  They had surviving offsprings and those are the ancestors of the White Walkers.  The Starks, Craster, and the White Walkers share DNA.  Moreover, Craster is a Stark. 

Allow me to post again, for those who cannot open the link to the 2016 thread:

 

They are related by blood.  Craster and the Starks.  The Starks got the  strange, long face and short tempers.  Craster got the good looks in the family

[Jaenara Belarys]

I see I haven't missed anything.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I see I haven't missed anything.

Just some new people trying in vain to reason with irrational schmucks

[Jaenara Belarys]

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Just some new people trying in vain to reason with irrational schmucks

Join the cause?

[Craving Peaches]

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Just some new people trying in vain to reason with irrational schmucks

Perhaps just schmuck would be better because I think it's all one person.

[Jaenara Belarys]

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Perhaps just schmuck would be better because I think it's all one person.

Prolly. 

[The Mourning Knight]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:19 PM, Craving Peaches said:

There's nothing wrong with questioning the decency of the Starks, I just don't think that, having read the previous posts, that a lot of people are really interested in this nuance. I got the impression that quite a few people were not interested in a serious discussion of the Starks, but wanted more ammunition for their 'Jon is evil' claims. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of the Starks but instead the same people make baseless accusations such as Jon is the New Night's king who will lead the Others to kill everyone in Westeros and so will all the other Starks etc.

Oh, is that the new pet theory? Fun. 
 

Funny. I’ve actually always seen a parallel between the legend of The Night’s King and Jon’s career in The Watch. But I always thought that was the author’s way of showing how history becomes twisted as it passes into myth and hinting that the Night’s King may be more complex than a villain who simply gets off on how awesome the cold and darkness is.

The evolution of contrived conspiracies is interesting, however. I would have thought Craster is actually a Targaryen… 

I don’t know.. this one just doesn’t excite me. I think a good ASOIAF conspiracy fills gaps and challenges the connections between characters and alliances etc., In order for this to have any pay off, GRRM would have to spend who knows how many pages revealing why this even matters. 

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Join the cause?

Welcoming them with open hands...

15 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Perhaps just schmuck would be better because I think it's all one person.

 

9 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Prolly. 

Ok some people may remember that these accusations of single hate ranting user with multiple alt accounts was proved baseless by the mods who investigated, notwithstanding the same dry humourless self righteous tone, double spaces, similar choice of words etc. Even a forum friend of mine turned out to have an alt and was banned, albeit fighting on the other side.

So it just reassures me to know that those who think the same aren't as few as they were, and new ones too arrive at the same conclusion.