Jump to content

Craster is a Stark


Recommended Posts

On 8/28/2022 at 4:13 PM, Finley McLeod said:

He was confident of his safety while the other wildlings were scared.  Craster and the Starks came from the Nightsking.  That's why they never harmed him.  The Others will find Jon's lifeless form and recognize him for a relative of Craster and resurrect him. 

They are the ones most likely to bring him back from death and not Mellissandre. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/29/2022 at 5:10 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure about this. I don't see what it would really add either given that Craster is dead and no special resemblance was noted between him and the Starks as far as I remember. 

Also, this thread doesn't seem like it was created to have a proper discussion, but rather to go on about how evil Jon and the Starks are.

Some Starks are not going to have the look.  The long face, long chin look is not present in every person who has Stark blood.  The relevance is the historical connection to the Night's King.  Craster, the Starks, and Night's King are from the same family.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Some Starks are not going to have the look.  The long face, long chin look is not present in every person who has Stark blood.  The relevance is the historical connection to the Night's King.  Craster, the Starks, and Night's King are from the same family.

But is there any proof? Otherwise you can claim that anyone's a Stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, The Mourning Knight said:

Funny. I’ve actually always seen a parallel between the legend of The Night’s King and Jon’s career in The Watch. But I always thought that was the author’s way of showing how history becomes twisted as it passes into myth and hinting that the Night’s King may be more complex than a villain who simply gets off on how awesome the cold and darkness is.

Interesting.  I never saw any reason to put any more stock in the tales of The Night King than in Garth Greenhand or Lann the Clever.  Or The Thing that Came in the night.  Stories that are Westeros's equivalent of Hercules or Pandora or Count Dracula.  But there is definitely something about how history becomes distorted and turned about over time and the stories of The Last Hero and Azor Ahai and maybe The Night King too are all in play.

7 hours ago, The Mourning Knight said:

I think a good ASOIAF conspiracy fills gaps and challenges the connections between characters and alliances etc., In order for this to have any pay off, GRRM would have to spend who knows how many pages revealing why this even matters. 

I agree.  The apparent relevance I can see would be

  • The Others take Craster's children to join them.  Whatever ritual that required could be used on Jon / Jon's corpse if they recognised some kinship with him
  • The Others want Gilly's babe as an "offering" stolen from them and are determined to recover their lost brother
  • It ties the Starks to The Others as Craster "Stark" is shown to gift them his sons

Against this it has to be said

  • the wight sent to kill Mormont had no problem trying to kill Jon and there seemed no recognition or consideration of  a Stark bloodline
  • Benjen has been missing since AGOT so, either they had no problem snuffing him out as well (or, if you prefer, you could argue they have already co-opted him into their ranks)
  • The Others' schemes were in motion long before Gilly gave birth.  Her babe's presence/absence seems an irrelevance to whatever they are intending
  • It appears to give Craster a pivotal role in the return of The Others, in a sense creating them with his "Stark"  sacrifices.  But there had to be someone for him to sacrifice to, so the argument becomes circular and his apparent importance diminished.

It all feels a bit contrived and irrelevant to me.  I understand the thematic desire to equate Starks with Ice as Targaryens are equated with fire but I don't think that fits.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A pact was sealed a long time ago between the Starks and the White Walkers.  The Starks would give male children occasionally in exchange for power over the north.  Craster is doing the same thing.  He gets to live beyond the wall and pays for this freedom with his sons.  The Starks of the past would have given their bastards to the White Walkers.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This is the problem with introducing glamour magic.

Well, I meant that people will see what they want to see if it entertains them or fits their theory, magic or no magic involved.  There is nothing for any of these assumptions and the glamour / Faceless Man magic works by assuming someone else's appearance. 

The allegation that Craster is a Stark rests on the idea that his father was a ranger but we of course have no idea who and no idea if there was even a Stark / Stark bastard in The Watch when he was sired.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The allegation that Craster is a Stark rests on the idea that his father was a ranger but we of course have no idea who and no idea if there was even a Stark / Stark bastard in The Watch when he was sired.

This is one of the reasons I find it difficult to accept the Craster is a Stark theory. The author has given us two men fathered by men of the NW - Craster and Mance. Judging by their descriptions, both are older men between 50 and 60 years of age. The assumption is the Others need babies of a magical bloodline to do whatever they do with the boys. Two NW-brothers with magical blood were stationed at the Wall, old enough to have fathered Craster (and Mance) within that time frame. So why not explore Maester Aemon and Bloodraven as possible fathers? Both come from a heritage of really old blood and I don't mean the Targaryen bloodline alone. Maester Aemon's mother was Dyanna Dayne of Starfall, of a lineage going back 10,000 years to an era prior to the first appearance of the White Walkers during the Long Night. Bloodraven's mother was a Blackwood, also of FM-blood going back thousands of years.

What might these bloodlines mean in respect of the Others or the babies sacrificed to the Others? I find the connection to Dyanna Dayne particularly interesting. There are descriptive similarities between Dawn and the swords of the Others - pale swords that are alive with light (moonlight in the case of the Others), Dawn's blade is pale as milkglass, the Others' bones are pale as milkglass. I suspect the Others empowered their swords with Ser Waymar's blood. Could Craster's babies serve the same purpose, to empower the swords of the Others? The narrative supports the idea of empowering swords via human sacrifice. The reforging of Valyrian Steel is rumored to require baby sacrifices and of course we have Lightbringer, empowered by Nissa Nissa's soul. Is the faint blue ghost light that plays around the sword of the Other the soul of a sacrifed being? And are Ashara Dayne's haunting purple eyes a hint at the unique character of Dayne blood?

The Others requiring skinchanging properties which Craster is assumed to impart to his children is doubtful at best. The HBO show seems to have planted this thought in the minds of fans. From what we've learned of the soul-binding properties of rubies via Melisandre, it's more likely the Others bind and control their wights by way of their star-sapphire eyes (sapphires consist of the same material als rubies, only the colour differs). 

Maester Aemon and Bloodraven are plausible candidates for having fathered Craster and Mance. I would assign Aemon to Craster and Bloodraven to Mance and I think we are supposed to compare and contrast the two bastard sons - fodder for another thread. 

Notice also how our two prominent bastards, Jon and Ramsay, mirror Mance and Craster in respect of their upbringing respectively. Mance and Jon were both taken in and educated by their respective families (Mance by his fellow NW-brothers). Ramsay and Craster were not granted this luxury during their formative years. Ramsay hasn't been paired with Craster but in his own way, the latter is as monstrous as Ramsay. Should this be telling us something?

Exploring all these different angles may lead to a more informed conclusion than assuming Craster is a Stark. As far as Craster and his practice of sacrificing sons is concerned, I think the answer can be found within families of very ancient lineage, including but not exclusive to the Starks. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I never saw any reason to put any more stock in the tales of The Night King than in Garth Greenhand or Lann the Clever. 

100% I was surprised when the show decided to seize him as their “end boss.” But I thought of the Nights King in the same regard. With the exception that he foreshadowed Jon’s demise. My point is that if there was some day (a thousand years later) a legend of Jon Snow, (a legend strongly influenced by those who despised and betrayed him,) it would sound a LOT like the Nights King. A Romance with an enemy beyond the wall. Said to posses unnatural powers. Using the watch to his own “evil” ends. Defeated by the “gallantry” of his own brothers. 

I think of the Frey’s spin in the Red Wedding. As readers we react to that with revulsion because we know how twisted it is. And if we heard a similar account of Jon, we would have a similar reaction. But despite this pattern of propaganda, we take the story of the Night’s King at face value. So much so that the show appropriated him as their villain. 
 

I’m not sure that the agenda of the Others will be personified in one “bad guy leader,” but if it is, and the Nights King is who the author decides to go with, I hope he is as complex a character as any of GRRMs other villains and so nuanced in his goals and motivations that we argue about him in these forums. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 4 months later...
On 8/31/2022 at 6:36 AM, Unit A2 said:

A pact was sealed a long time ago between the Starks and the White Walkers.  The Starks would give male children occasionally in exchange for power over the north.  Craster is doing the same thing.  He gets to live beyond the wall and pays for this freedom with his sons.  The Starks of the past would have given their bastards to the White Walkers.  

Preston Jacobs has an interesting series of videos where he makes a good case for the bastards of the North getting thrown away on the other side of the wall.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes said:

"Craster Is A Stark."  Two academics from Israel had a Youtube channel called Game of Thrones Academy.  They proposed this theory in one of their regular channel episodes.  It's a very good theory.  

To me that theory makes as much sense as mine own Varys is Santa theory. After all

1. Varys knows who naughty or nice

2. He has small army of "elves"

3. He kind of has to use special devices like Santa's sledge and chimneys to be able to get all places he had been.

4. Illyrio could give to Dany 3 working dragon eggs as a gift when nobody had not seen any living dragons very long time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Craster could just as easily be a Targaryen. With the facts we have now, it makes more sense.

 

He practices incest, not in a 1st or 2nd cousin capacity, but rather even closer incest with his daughters/granddaughters.

No Stark’s are known to have been in the NW until Benjen. So thus far there is none around to have fathered him. While it doesn’t mean there wasn’t, there just isn’t any evidence to suggest there was.

Meanwhile we have both Aemon and Bloodraven in the area who could’ve possibly fathered them or Mance.

 

In short, Craster will resurrected and be made King Craster Targaryen!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the most telling signs against Craster being a Stark is Gilly's answer to Jon at the lichyard, when he sends Gilly and Sam and maester Aemon away.

Jon says, "As you command, my lady". And Gilly gets angry and orders him not to call her "lady". She is not a lady, but a mother and Craster's daughter and Craster's wife.

There are several scenes where Gilly is metaphorically or physically in fear of a direwolf, eventually leading up to her denial of being a lady.

Lady and a lichyard brings Sansa's Lady to mind (who is buried in WF's lichyard). Add the wolf/Jon featured as a threat to her, especially when Gilly herself is often staged as a stand-in corpse queen (asking Jon to take her with him in an enchanted frozen forest, Sam smuggling her inside the Nightfort with son, at a lichyard giving orders like a queen), and we have a wolf/Stark threat to Gilly/corpse queen. Since she denies being a lady, Gilly denies being a wolf, and thus being a Stark. And if Craster has Stark blood, then so would Gilly. If Gilly denies being a Stark, then Craster too is not a Stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All joking aside, I’m pretty sure Craster is just mongrel piece of shit fathered by some random wildling and random crow. Not every minor character is a secret noble. That’d be ridiculous. Jon is obviously a Targaryen, legitimate or otherwise, but I think that’ll be it on secret family heritage. Maybe we’ll get Targ Tyrion but that’ll be it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...