Lord Varys is rewatching Buffy and Angel

[Lord Varys]

So in context with the Joss Whedon debate thingy I thought I could rewatch these two shows (and also check how the DVDs are holding up after 20+ years - so far no problems).

This is not going to be some weirdo thread like my take on WoT, but I am watching with the intention to check out where one might find aspects of Whedon's problematic character traits in his writing (or in the show in general).

I'm well into season 2 already, and I still very much enjoy the show. For instance, I really enjoy Giles as a mentor/father figure, I do like the friendship of Willow and Buffy, and also most of the episodes simply because they tell great stories.

Problematic things do pop up in the character/attitude/behavior of Xander - he is very much creep and very unhealthily obsessed with Buffy. He constantly tries to interfere in her private life, attempting to sabotage whatever relationships she has or tries to have with any other male friends than him - regardless whether we talk about Owen in season 1, Angel, her old vampire-loving buddy Billy Fordham in season 2, or even the nice guy college student who turns out to be a snake demon devotee (in the latter episode it is really bad, since Xander actually follows the girls to the party like the ultimate creep) ... and we also get a similar although milder presumptuous jealousy from him when Willow starts to date Oz.

And then there are his comments about Xander's Buffy voyeurism and fetishism - him letting it slip that he made pictures of her, knows intimate details about her underwear, etc. - which clearly implies this guy has problems (we also get the stalker/voyeur thing later again from Spike).

This kind of creep character pops up again and again, e.g. the friend of the Frankenstein student from 'Some Assembly Required', culminating in Jonathan and later the Trio.

The whole sadism thing may be there in a problematic capacity with something like the remarks of the coach in 'The Pack' - I always thought this was supposed to criticize/point out random sadism in teachers ... but in light what we know about Whedon he might actually identify more with coach than we would have expected earlier. That doesn't have to affect what you take away from the scene, but it certainly can give it a different spin.

Insofar as feminism/women are concerned, we mostly see the girls in the quiet/passive role in the relationship dynamics - even Coredelia is, at times, written as a girl who tries to catch the attention of boys/men rather than approaching them directly - which would and is more in accordance with her general character (the best example here would be 'Reptile Boy' where Cordelia actually follows some guide how to make herself attractive for older men). I think the most progressive female role in the first two seasons is actually Jenny Calendar - who is basically the one who picks up Giles rather than the other way around.

The finale of the first season doesn't strike me as empowering or progressive at all - we basically get a symbolic rape/deflowering with the Master biting and killing Buffy. She is dependent on Angel and Xander - two men - to return to life and then we get what could have been rape revenge flick.

[Feologild]

I find the "Is it holding up" as a terrible argument for a show

 

A good show does not suddenly turn bad because its old.

[Zorral]

34 minutes ago, Feologild said:

A good show does not suddenly turn bad because its old.

Wasn't the OP referring to the 20 year old dvds themselves, not the show?

It now occurs to me that mine must be nearly that old too.  I don't recall when I got the boxed set beyond it was after 2005 and before 2008.

 

[Lord Varys]

Yes, the comment referred to the DVDs. So far no reading problems at all with the BluRay player I'm using.

Moron that I am, I bought the half-season sets that were the first DVD releases for Buffy/Angel over here. I must have bought the first sets in the early 2000s.

I'm through the second season now. The finale is really great, it blows you away and is really a very well-crafted emotional plot. The only mild annoyance is the weirdo plot device that the Acathla guy is somehow controlled by Angel's blood - never mind that nothing connects these two entities. There could have been more substance behind that one.

I think the whole 'my boyfriend turns evil after I slept with him' thing is also something that appears more darker now, knowing Whedon's character. One can easily see him ending relationships in 'the Angelus way'. The take on teenager sex with Joyce actually reprimanding her daughter for having sex with a guy she never introduced to her mother feels like American prudery to me. She is seventeen at the time.

'Ted' is still one of the greatest episodes in the show (although the weird pity for the original Ted is uncalled for).

I must also say that I really like the overall take of the show to have people with everyday problems resolving them with magic and demon-summoning and the like, for instance, Amy's mother stealing her daughter's body to be a cheerleader again, guy becoming Frankenstein to bring back his older brother, the coach of the swim team turning his boys into Deep Ones so they increase their chances of winning a title, etc.

Xander's character being problematic is very much underlined when he insists on Angel's destruction ... obviously being motivated only by jealousy in this context. He wasn't emotionally close to Jenny Calendar, so if her fate was the important issue there then Giles should have been the one opposing the idea to re-curse Angel rather than Xander.

Xander's lie comes back in the show much later, but it never actually haunts him. They could have done more with that, I think. And now that I'm thinking about the dark side that's clearly there, the character going down a darker path - perhaps only for a time - could have worked also really well. I don't think the show ever has him confront or get over his Buffy obsession. It just seems to quietly disappear.

[felice]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only mild annoyance is the weirdo plot device that the Acathla guy is somehow controlled by Angel's blood - never mind that nothing connects these two entities.

Angel's blood is the key because Angel is the one performing the ritual to awaken him.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, felice said:

Angel's blood is the key because Angel is the one performing the ritual to awaken him.

Yes, I get it why you have to use the same blood to close it than you used to open the portal ... but it was odd that Angel's blood was the special blood to awaken Acathla in the first blood. Whistler implies that his plan for Angel involved him defeating Acathla for good, not for him to awaken him - implying that there was a special link between Angel and Acathla even before he was unearthed and Drusilla told the gang about him.

[felice]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, I get it why you have to use the same blood to close it than you used to open the portal ... but it was odd that Angel's blood was the special blood to awaken Acathla in the first blood.

There isn't anything special about the first blood - it's just that the person performing the ritual has to use their own blood, not somebody else's. If, say, Drusilla was doing it, she'd use her blood, not Angel's. And her blood would then have been needed to close it.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Whistler implies that his plan for Angel involved him defeating Acathla for good, not for him to awaken him - implying that there was a special link between Angel and Acathla even before he was unearthed and Drusilla told the gang about him.

I don't think there's a special link as such; Whistler foresaw Acathla's return, and Angel is just the sort of guy who fights evil like that. Would have been the same no matter what demon was expected to show up.

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, felice said:

There isn't anything special about the first blood - it's just that the person performing the ritual has to use their own blood, not somebody else's. If, say, Drusilla was doing it, she'd use her blood, not Angel's. And her blood would then have been needed to close it.

That seems to be likely, but it isn't said that everybody performing the ritual can awaken Acathla using their own blood. We repeatedly learn that Angel's blood is necessary.

20 hours ago, felice said:

I don't think there's a special link as such; Whistler foresaw Acathla's return, and Angel is just the sort of guy who fights evil like that. Would have been the same no matter what demon was expected to show up.

That's certainly possible. I guess they may have scrapped future plots for Whistler when the actor never returned ... after all, he sets up Angel and Buffy and it is never explained why he does that. I remember that Doyle was originally supposed to be Whistler and I know that he returns in the later comics, but in the show his short appearance in season 2 is just weird in retrospect.

[Werthead]

Yeah, Whistler was setup for Angel and then the actor declined to return, possibly as he had another gig.

Xander's lie is one of those things that they wanted to tap into later on, but with Angel off the show and then on a different network they couldn't get back to it organically. The most they could do was Willow finding out in Season 7 that Xander had lied, but Buffy didn't, and Willow was quite annoyed with Xander. But then Xander was in a completely different place then, so Willow didn't seem to want to hold his douchebaggy 17-year-old wangsting against him (it was five years later, after all).

[Lord Varys]

32 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yeah, Whistler was setup for Angel and then the actor declined to return, possibly as he had another gig.

Doyle really seems to be just a slightly different version of Whistler, the later super powers and evil machinations from the comics aside.

32 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Xander's lie is one of those things that they wanted to tap into later on, but with Angel off the show and then on a different network they couldn't get back to it organically. The most they could do was Willow finding out in Season 7 that Xander had lied, but Buffy didn't, and Willow was quite annoyed with Xander. But then Xander was in a completely different place then, so Willow didn't seem to want to hold his douchebaggy 17-year-old wangsting against him (it was five years later, after all).

In season 7 they all find out - Buffy confronts Willow about what she allegedly told Xander to tell her, and Xander is right there in the room, I think. But this late in the story, and facing the ultimate apocalypse, it really wouldn't have made much sense if this had become a serious issue.

The point where it more or less should have come out already is when they quarrel after Buffy's return from L.A. early in season 3. They all band together against Buffy and it is kind of odd that she doesn't say something along the lines of 'I left, because you shitty people made me kill my repaired boyfriend, thank you very much!'

But as I said already - Xander is really a pretty big creep with something that we would clearly describe as a considerable 'dark side'. He actually didn't seem to make a joke when he said that if he was invisible he would turn voyeur full time. And then there is casual - and quite over-the-top - threat to kill Buffy if Willow were to be killed by the vampires in 'When She Was Bad'.

Like Willow very much has a hidden dark side - expressed in her pronounced sadism as a vampire as well as her later excesses as a witch - Xander clearly has something similar, but that very much disappears in the later seasons (or is turned into him being just very insecure).

Marti Noxon is the female writer who really had ugly experiences with abusive relationships, no? I just rewatched 'Beauty and the Beasts' and that really had a textbook case of the abusive boyfriend - Noxon wrote that, 'I Only Have Eyes for You' and 'Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered' back in season 2 which all deal with that thing to various degrees.

[Lord Varys]

So far it seems season 2 is actually better than season 3. I really like the Mayor as a villain, but season 3 seems to have considerable character and continuity issues:

Minor things are the glitches in the episode 'The Wish' - folks who watched season 1 know that the Master freeing himself results in the opening of the hell-mouth and the subsequent return of the Old Ones. Yet in the alternative reality of 'The Wish' the Master is free but the world isn't a post-apocalyptic demon paradise.

It would have been easy to rectify this issue, say, by giving us a short dialogue establishing that Giles and company were able to close the hell-mouth in time while not being able to prevent the escape of the Master.

This is getting worse by the fact that we actually see the hell-mouth monster in 'The Zeppo', remembering the audience that a free Master should have also included this monster destroying the library and subsequently the school.

Speaking about 'The Zeppo' - that's arguably one of the worst episodes in the entire show, leading us to the character problems. Xander and the setting as depicted in 'The Zeppo' don't make sense in context to the earlier episodes. This would have been a good plot for Xander in season 1 or early season 2 - seeing him struggle between his secret life as Buffy's companion and his public life at school where he is still an insecure loser. But at the point where he is at this time in his development the idea that he is still that much of an insecure clown makes essentially no sense at all.

The entire episode also has Xander as the complete outsider while Willow is basically at the center of the action - something that's contradicted immediately in the next episode where Buffy uses flimsy reasons to not allow Willow to accompany her on her patrols. That kind of thing is completely out of the question since at least the break between seasons 2 & 3 when the gang continued to hunt vampires while Buffy was in L.A. They are not slayers but by this time they can handle themselves when encountering a vampire on a random patrol.

Which leads us to the really big issue: Faith.

First, there is the weirdo and kind of unmotivated jealousy of Buffy. She was pissed that Kendra existed and came to Sunnydale in season 2, and when Faith shows up we get the same kind of behavior. Is this supposed to Buffy's secret narcissistic streak? We don't see her behave in this manner under normal circumstances. The whole scenario of Joyce having to ask Buffy to invite Faith over for Christmas is also something that shows how shitty Buffy's attitude towards Faith is. She is basically the anti-thesis of a good friend.

And while Faith definitely tries to worm her way into Buffy's circle of friends, she is no evil bitch you have to be wary of.

Then, once it is established that Faith remains in Sunnydale ... folks make no attempt at all to help a person who is basically a homeless girl with no job. She has to live at that crappy motel, neither Buffy nor Giles nor any of her friends nor the Council take any steps to better her situation - say, by inviting her to live with them, to secure funds to provide her with an actual apartment (the Watchers must have money aplenty), or to help her get an actual job. If the good guys had provided Faith with some stability, the Mayor wouldn't have been able to buy her loyalty and love as easily as he later did.

In context, this is completely unrealistic and lazy writing.

Insofar as the arc of Faith's fall is concerned there is also the great letdown of having an episode like 'Revelation' far too early. It is this episode where it is clear that Faith feels deeply betrayed by Buffy, underlined by that very ominous ending, so them getting along much better in 'Bad Girls' is kind of weird.

In the same sense, Buffy's rebellious attitude in 'Bad Girls' is something that could have been connected much better to the overall arc of the season. First we have Buffy betray Giles and her friends by keeping Angel's return a secret, then we have Giles betraying Buffy in 'Helpless'. Vice versa, we have Faith being betrayed by Gwendolyn Post in 'Revelations'.

This could have been very elegantly tied together to a plot where the two Slayers start to really bond because all their friends and allies betrayed or disappointed them. In fact, with Buffy it could have worked greatly if in the wake of Angel's return Xander's lie would have come out, and Buffy would subsequently cut her ties to her friends for a time, becoming increasingly dependent of Faith. 'Gingerbread' is also an episode after which Buffy's relationship with her mother should have suffered some cracks. Yes, a demon was behind it, but it was still Joyce who tried to burn Buffy at the stake.

The idea that Buffy would be willing to work with Giles (and to a lesser degree with Wesley) as if nothing happened after 'Helpless' is very hard to swallow.

[Fez]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So far it seems season 2 is actually better than season 3. I really like the Mayor as a villain, but season 3 seems to have considerable character and continuity issues:

It's been several years now, but on my last re-watch I came to the same conclusion. I really liked the Mayor too, and his dynamic with Faith. And I think the median episode of S3 was probably better than the median episode of S2; IMO a lot of the monster of the week episodes in S2 were pretty bad. But you're right about the characterization issues in S3, and the highs of S2 were unmatched by anything else in the show. 

[Lord Varys]

30 minutes ago, Fez said:

It's been several years now, but on my last re-watch I came to the same conclusion. I really liked the Mayor too, and his dynamic with Faith. And I think the median episode of S3 was probably better than the median episode of S2; IMO a lot of the monster of the week episodes in S2 were pretty bad. But you're right about the characterization issues in S3, and the highs of S2 were unmatched by anything else in the show. 

In addition, there are the continuity issues with Snyder - in season 2 he knows about the hell-mouth and was acting on the Mayor's orders when he expelling Buffy ... but that's all gone in season 3.

And the very ugly and obvious continuity issue between 'Bad Girls' and 'Consequences' where an entire day is lost.

But, seriously, something like Willow being at the thick of things in one episode and then Buffy telling Willow she cannot go with her should have been obvious nonsense to everyone involved, especially the actors.

And I think a big issue with the slow and weird plot of season 4 is also that the Initiative isn't some joint venture between the Watcher's Council and the government/military but rather something completely new. The idea that Walsh knows about demons but not the Slayer is ridiculous - especially in light of how the Mayor monster was actually defeated.

The natural continuation of Buffy stopping to work for the Council would be that the Watchers implement plan B to deal with the demons, i.e. something like the Initiative. Having this as a completely new project didn't work well.

I don't have a lot of issues with the Monster of the Week episodes from season 2, to be honest, but I realized that the plot and substance of Whedon's 'Doppelgangland' is actually paper thin. Yes, okay, it explores aspects of Willow's character and has some good comedy ... but what actually happens there is pretty boring. And we would also have to say that like with Xander in 'The Zeppo' Willow would hardly consider herself and her life to be boring at this point in her development.

The plot of 'Enemies' is also a complete mess. When exactly did they come up with the plan to fake Angelus' return? And why were they even suspicious that Faith might work for the Mayor? Was there any hint in that direction? If so, when exactly? Buffy seems to be genuinely concerned that Angel and Faith may have a thing going when she observes them and later talks to Willow about them - and she wouldn't just pretend to be concerned when talking to Willow. Did the sorcerer guy tell Giles that the Mayor approached him? If so, why the hell would they have to do the charade thing if the sorcerer guy could just tell them that Faith was team Mayor now. Doing the charade just to learn about the Day of Ascension is pretty silly, especially since they just learned that the Mayor intended to ascend. Also, if they could sell the Angelus thing to the Mayor why not have him join team Mayor for a longer time to actually milk the Mayor for information than to bother with Faith?

This feels like a complete mess.

[sifth]

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition, there are the continuity issues with Snyder - in season 2 he knows about the hell-mouth and was acting on the Mayor's orders when he expelling Buffy ... but that's all gone in season 3.

And the very ugly and obvious continuity issue between 'Bad Girls' and 'Consequences' where an entire day is lost.

But, seriously, something like Willow being at the thick of things in one episode and then Buffy telling Willow she cannot go with her should have been obvious nonsense to everyone involved, especially the actors.

And I think a big issue with the slow and weird plot of season 4 is also that the Initiative isn't some joint venture between the Watcher's Council and the government/military but rather something completely new. The idea that Walsh knows about demons but not the Slayer is ridiculous - especially in light of how the Mayor monster was actually defeated.

The natural continuation of Buffy stopping to work for the Council would be that the Watchers implement plan B to deal with the demons, i.e. something like the Initiative. Having this as a completely new project didn't work well.

I don't have a lot of issues with the Monster of the Week episodes from season 2, to be honest, but I realized that the plot and substance of Whedon's 'Doppelgangland' is actually paper thin. Yes, okay, it explores aspects of Willow's character and has some good comedy ... but what actually happens there is pretty boring. And we would also have to say that like with Xander in 'The Zeppo' Willow would hardly consider herself and her life to be boring at this point in her development.

The plot of 'Enemies' is also a complete mess. When exactly did they come up with the plan to fake Angelus' return? And why were they even suspicious that Faith might work for the Mayor? Was there any hint in that direction? If so, when exactly? Buffy seems to be genuinely concerned that Angel and Faith may have a thing going when she observes them and later talks to Willow about them - and she wouldn't just pretend to be concerned when talking to Willow. Did the sorcerer guy tell Giles that the Mayor approached him? If so, why the hell would they have to do the charade thing if the sorcerer guy could just tell them that Faith was team Mayor now. Doing the charade just to learn about the Day of Ascension is pretty silly, especially since they just learned that the Mayor intended to ascend. Also, if they could sell the Angelus thing to the Mayor why not have him join team Mayor for a longer time to actually milk the Mayor for information than to bother with Faith?

This feels like a complete mess.

It's been a long, long time since I've seen season three, but I remember The Mayor ordering Faith and "Angelus" to kill Buffy. There was no way Angel would ever do that. I'd also imagine, had Angel stayed in the service of The Mayor longer he'd be asked to kill more innocent lives to keep his cover. Not entirely sure Angel would be up for that.

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, sifth said:

It's been a long, long time since I've seen season three, but I remember The Mayor ordering Faith and "Angelus" to kill Buffy. There was no way Angel would ever do that. I'd also imagine, had Angel stayed in the service of The Mayor longer he'd be asked to kill more innocent lives to keep his cover. Not entirely sure Angel would be up for that.

Yes, sure, that was the order. But Buffy/Angel could have faked her death, so that Angel would have a little bit more time with the Mayor.

Of course, once it got down to innocent lives the point would have been reached where Angel would have to back out. But then - he would be Angelus, and Angelus does what he wants, not necessarily what the Mayor wants him to do, so there would be considerable room for Angel to maneuver.

Bottom line is, they should have stuck to one or two plots in that episode, first having an episode where they got hints towards Faith's true allegiance, perhaps by ways of her spending more time with Angel and trying to seduce him and by there being actually some clues that Faith may have murdered somebody who offered them assistance against the Mayor. Then another episode where they realize that Angel pretending to be Angelus could be a way to infiltrate the Mayor's organization because the guy was actually trying to recreate Angelus through Faith.

In fact, a much better could have been if they would actually agree that Angel has sex with Faith to fool them - something Buffy may not have been all that happy with.

[Lord Varys]

I finished season 5 of Buffy yesterday, and I'm about to conclude season 2 of Angel tonight.

Buffy's season 4 still has powerful singe episodes - Hush, the two-parter about Faith's return - but the season arc there is a mess. Adam is a very pale villain, almost a background character, while the Initiative as such is also no real threat. Maggie Walsh could have been a fine villain ... but she gets gutted far too early. And without her ultimate goal being revealed. What exactly was Adam supposed to do under her guidance? Yes, she was a controlling bitch, but what was her endgame?

The soap elements also suffer from the writers having no clue what to do with Giles and Xander, not to mention the ridiculous way in which Spike becomes a member of the gang. Just because the guy can no longer bite doesn't make him their friend. They should kill him anyway, if only to punish him for past crimes and/or ensure he cannot harm anybody else should the chip ever malfunction of be removed. Vice versa, it is clear from the start that Anya and not Spike should be the replacement Cordelia. They should have made her a member of the main cast from the beginning of season 4. Instead they only realize she would have been a fine addition to the cast after half a season is over.

Riley I really enjoyed in season 4 ... but the way he is written out in season 5 makes little sense, actually. And I'm still pissed that Glory apparently never got back home. She deserved it, man. Whedon resurrected the fucking Mayor Snake for the last comic season, but the goddess apparently died.

Also, the metaphysics of Buffy's final sacrifice still make no sense at all. Sure, Dawn was created from 'Buffy's flesh' ... but, newsflash, Buffy didn't get any 'Key essence/magics' in the process of that. Else Buffy would have been as much the Key as Dawn herself ... which wasn't the case. Buffy dying shouldn't have closed any doors at all.

Also, in context it makes little to no sense that the only way to stop the Key magics was to kill the embodied Key. Presumably, this Key thing was used once or twice in the past and that didn't result in its utter destruction. Patching up Dawn's wounds should have been more than enough to end that. Mind you, Buffy sacrificing herself to save Dawn was a great plot, but the reasons why she would do this should have made more sense. In context it would have been more powerful if her final defeat over Glory would have involved a self-sacrifice.

Insofar as feminism is concerned, the entire reaction to Spike confessing that 'he is in love with Buffy' is ridiculous. Buffy herself and her mother wonder whether she herself (!!!) is to be blamed to a point for the monster's perverse obsession with her.

I enjoyed the single episodes of the first Angel season much better than earlier. Season 2's Darla plot is very interesting on a personal level - Angel's personal conflict does make a lot of sense and plays out very nicely - but lacking a lot in the field of general motivation due to the weird way the evil lawyers are set up. It is fun to see how Dru and Darla slaughter Holland Manners in the end ... but in what world does it make sense that a high-ranking lackey of Wolfram & Hart doesn't have measures in place to keep to vampires in check? Sure, it took place in his home and all ... but this guy must have lots and lots of demonic enemies and rivals, meaning his home should be protected against something like that.

While Wolfram & Hart make sense as a 'faceless evil' they should have fleshed them out more as the show progressed. But even in season 5 when Angel and his gang run the L.A. branch of the firm we still have no insight into individual senior partners, etc.

[Annara Snow]

On 2/2/2022 at 1:53 AM, Lord Varys said:

 

Marti Noxon is the female writer who really had ugly experiences with abusive relationships, no? I just rewatched 'Beauty and the Beasts' and that really had a textbook case of the abusive boyfriend - Noxon wrote that, 'I Only Have Eyes for You' and 'Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered' back in season 2 which all deal with that thing to various degrees.

Only Pete  in BatB is a textbook abusive boyfriend - and he is used as a compare and contrast to Angel and Oz (mostly contrast with Oz, a mix of both with Angel).

By BBB, do you mean Angelus? That was an ongoing storyline.

But IOHEYF...? I'm not sure what you mean by that one. The ghost story was about a romantic relationship between a female teacher and a male high school student. Which was used as a parallel to Buffy and Angel (makes sense as it is also a relationship between a much older person and a teen). Where the teenager ended up losing it and actting emotionally volatile as teens do and threatening her with a gun, which ended up tragically in an accidental killing and then suicide.

Marti Noxon was, according to herself, specialized for breakup stories (The Prom, Wild At Heart...) and other heartbreak romantic stories, dysfunctional relationships and kinky stuff. She wrote most of Drusilla's dialogue in season 2 and she also wrote (uncredicted) the crucial scene between Darla and Angel in "Dear Boy" ("God doesn't want you... but I still do").

In addition, she is also behind episodes where female characters like Faith or Willow go 'dark' (Consequences, Villains), so it's not surprising that her post-Buffy work, including her own shows (UNREAL, Dietland, Sharp Objects..) involves many complicated, messy and/or dark female characters.

[Annara Snow]

I find the premise of "I will rewatch this to look for problematic elements now that I know the showrunner is an a-hole" pretty weird. If you thought something fictional was problematic in the first place, then it is, if you didn't, no reason to change your mind, and that has nothing to do with whatever the showrunner is like.

I've always found early seasons Xander infuriating. I used to hate him at first. But he gets much better later. I only liked him from season 4 onwards. Not that he becomes perfect, he does not, but I have a lot more sympathy for his season 6 screw-ups than most people seem do.

[Annara Snow]

On 2/4/2022 at 6:02 PM, Fez said:

It's been several years now, but on my last re-watch I came to the same conclusion. I really liked the Mayor too, and his dynamic with Faith. And I think the median episode of S3 was probably better than the median episode of S2; IMO a lot of the monster of the week episodes in S2 were pretty bad. But you're right about the characterization issues in S3, and the highs of S2 were unmatched by anything else in the show. 

I disagree about that, as the heights of season 2 (which are some of my favorite episodes and one of the best arcs in the show) were very much matched later, among others by season 5 (the best season of Buffy overall) and its overall arc, as well as many great episodes like The Hush, Restless, OMWF, or by the best parts of season 6, and even - though very rarely - some moments of season 7. 
They were rarely matched in season 3, true - it is overall solid but lacks these kinds of big dramatic, emotional moments (except in The Wish, which is one of the show's highs even with the "but what about  the rest of the world?" issue) and none of the characters have any real development or arcs (except for repeating their season 2 development) - aside from Faith.

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

By BBB, do you mean Angelus? That was an ongoing storyline.

Nope, I meant Xander resorting to magic to force Cordelia to love him again so he could humiliate and dump her. Which is the pretense behind the spell that goes wrong.

Angelus is a obsessed creep, too, of course, which makes Angel's entire romance with Buffy also deeply problematic since it sends the message a boyfriend/partner can be this bad (occasionally) and still be 'the right guy'.

40 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

But IOHEYF...? I'm not sure what you mean by that one. The ghost story was about a romantic relationship between a female teacher and a male high school student. Which was used as a parallel to Buffy and Angel (makes sense as it is also a relationship between a much older person and a teen). Where the teenager ended up losing it and actting emotionally volatile as teens do and threatening her with a gun, which ended up tragically in an accidental killing and then suicide.

I meant that the story ends on the right track ... but they still go by the textbook case of a murder-suicide committed by a young man who cannot deal with the end of a relationship.

It turns out he didn't actually murder her but he still threatened her with the gun and accidentally killed her.

40 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Marti Noxon was, according to herself, specialized for breakup stories (The Prom, Wild At Heart...) and other heartbreak romantic stories, dysfunctional relationships and kinky stuff. She wrote most of Drusilla's dialogue in season 2 and she also wrote (uncredicted) the crucial scene between Darla and Angel in "Dear Boy" ("God doesn't want you... but I still do").

Thinking about Drusilla ... I think it is a disgrace that they just dropped the character in later seasons. Rather than bothering so much with Darla in Angel it could have been great for Angel to try to help her. She is, most likely, the person he harmed the most and it could have been great to see a sane Drusilla.

36 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I find the premise of "I will rewatch this to look for problematic elements now that I know the showrunner is an a-hole" pretty weird. If you thought something fictional was problematic in the first place, then it is, if you didn't, no reason to change your mind, and that has nothing to do with whatever the showrunner is like.

I'm looking for things where I think Whedon's weirdo personality is made explicit. And, of course, I also rewatch the stuff about ten years later, meaning I myself am changed person looking for other things than the last time.

I freely admit that I wasn't caring much about the creep aspects of the various male characters, although I always realized what a shitty guy Warren was from the start. But I was surprised how unsympathetic a prick Xander actually is - I always disliked his attitude towards Angel, but I was surprised about how consistently jealous he is, not just of Angel (who, as a vampire, is also a potential danger) but any of the other love interests Buffy has ... and also of Oz once Willow finally gets her first boyfriend.

36 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I've always found early seasons Xander infuriating. I used to hate him at first. But he gets much better later. I only liked him from season 4 onwards. Not that he becomes perfect, he does not, but I have a lot more sympathy for his season 6 screw-ups than most people seem do.

Xander as a character is mostly completely pointless, having little to no right to actually be a part of such important events since he cannot offer anything to help Buffy. And when he gets involved he cannot even deal with his own issues, presuming to judge Buffy or other characters simply because his little desires and demands are not properly met by them.

That he suddenly becomes more compassionate and insightful in later seasons goes at the expense of other characters like Buffy - who was written as Madam Moron in her interactions with Riley in season 5 - not because he himself was consistently written.

Jane Espenson's 'Triangle' is nearly as bad as 'The Zeppo', by the way. A childish plot with the characters written as if they were out-of-character morons. Willow still not liking Xander's relationship with Anya is something I can accept - the woman is an ex-demon and thus a potential danger, especially if Xander were to fuck things up with her which is not unlikely to do - but the kind of silly entitled way in which Willow behaves in that episode is completely unbearable.

38 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

I disagree about that, as the heights of season 2 (which are some of my favorite episodes and one of the best arcs in the show) were very much matched later, among others by season 5 (the best season of Buffy overall) and its overall arc, as well as many great episodes like The Hush, Restless, OMWF, or by the best parts of season 6, and even - though very rarely - some moments of season 7. 
They were rarely matched in season 3, true - it is overall solid but lacks these kinds of big dramatic, emotional moments (except in The Wish, which is one of the show's highs even with the "but what about  the rest of the world?" issue) and none of the characters have any real development or arcs (except for repeating their season 2 development) - aside from Faith.

I'd agree that season 5 is massively better than season 3 & 4, although there are also certain problems in characterization there. Willow almost disappears as a character, for instance, and we get a completely pointless fake tension scene with the quarrel between Willow and Tara before the latter is attacked by Glory.

If you want to have quarrel build it - revisit Willow's involvement with Dawn's attempt to resurrect Joyce earlier in the season, for instance. The idea that Tara would think Willow was just a phase for her comes completely out of the left field.

Buffy's weirdo trust for Spike in the season is also without any internal justification. Okay, perhaps he is honestly and very much obsessed with Buffy ... but that would still not give her sufficient reason to entrust him with Dawn's life - not even after he resisted Glory's torture for as long as he did. Because as he has shown in the past he can decided to ally with a moster like Adam on a whim. If Glory had been smarter - offering him to free him from his chip, help him win Buffy's heart, or something else he might want - Spike should and would have immediately betrayed Buffy and Dawn simply because he has no real moral compass.