How would be the conquest of the north?

[M.kelly]

I am sorry my english is not very good but i try.

Imagine that the king of the north at the time Thoren stark had not had the idea of going south with 30k soldies, to defend his title and his kingdom but had chosen to stay in the north to prepare for the defense of his kingdom. What would be the scenario of an attack from the north by the the troops of aegon.

2)knowing that when aegon heard the news of the nordic troops incursion into the riverlands it was after battle of the fields of fire , he was on high garden and about to marche on old town and at this golden age, dorne, the islands  of iron and precisely the north had not yet bien conquered , what would be have done (argon)?

How would the conquest be ?

[Corvo the Crow]

Aegon goes to melt the wall, constant trouble for North. "If you don't join I'll do this over and over again."

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Torrhen saw the writing on the wall.  Or should I say Wall.  Moat Cailin is not an effective defense against the Targaryens.  He also saw how the Targaryens generously treated the houses who surrendered and decided it was in the best interest of the north to accept the dragons.  He had his autonomy even after the conquest.  It was only later that the North would lose the brutal lords' right of the first night.  Maybe if he had known he would have fought until every last man of the north was a pile of ashes. 

[Nathan Stark]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Aegon goes to melt the wall, constant trouble for North. "If you don't join I'll do this over and over again."

Since dragons are mysteriously unable to fly past the Wall, I find it unlikely they'd be able to destroy it. It is gaurded by extremely powerful magic. An invasion of the north would go extremely badly for the invaders, dragons or no. You can invade the north, (assuming you got past Moat Cailyn) but holding it would be impossible during winter. Aegon the Conquerer got beat by the Dornish, even with three dragons, and something similar would have happened in the north too. King Torhen just didn't want to see his people suffer needlessly. The Yellow Toad cared more about her pride than her people, but Torhen Stark chose the more humane solution.

[Rondo]

4 hours ago, M.kelly said:

I am sorry my english is not very good but i try.

Imagine that the king of the north at the time Thoren stark had not had the idea of going south with 30k soldies, to defend his title and his kingdom but had chosen to stay in the north to prepare for the defense of his kingdom. What would be the scenario of an attack from the north by the the troops of aegon.

2)knowing that when aegon heard the news of the nordic troops incursion into the riverlands it was after battle of the fields of fire , he was on high garden and about to marche on old town and at this golden age, dorne, the islands  of iron and precisely the north had not yet bien conquered , what would be have done (argon)?

How would the conquest be ?

The Conquest of the North will be inconvenient but successful.  Lord Stark made the right decision.  The South would have blocked all ships from making port at Manderly's.  All goods from the South will be stopped at The Twins.  War would have inflicted unbearable suffering on the North.  Winterfell was next to get the candy melt treatment.  Depending on the mood of the Targaryen court and allies, the Starks could have lost everything they had.  Including their lives.  

[Free Northman Reborn]

If they successfully assassinated the dragons the North could not be conquered. With dragons, however, every Northern keep could be burned to the ground - just like in Dorne.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Since dragons are mysteriously unable to fly past the Wall, I find it unlikely they'd be able to destroy it. It is gaurded by extremely powerful magic. An invasion of the north would go extremely badly for the invaders, dragons or no. You can invade the north, (assuming you got past Moat Cailyn) but holding it would be impossible during winter. Aegon the Conquerer got beat by the Dornish, even with three dragons, and something similar would have happened in the north too. King Torhen just didn't want to see his people suffer needlessly. The Yellow Toad cared more about her pride than her people, but Torhen Stark chose the more humane solution.

NW itself can destroy the wall, we see and hear it's been done plenty of times. It could very well be the later additions to the wall done by the NW and not the original wall itself but it'd still leave North more open to wildlings. Not that this actually matters, we learn from Jon that the entire Wildling host Mance has gathered is just 30-40000 so they can't actually have much of an impact by being like a bothersome fly but Northerners seem to give much importance to it so well...

[Darth Sidious]

The North is not really worth taking. It should be considered a border land between the land of the civilized people and the wildlings. I don’t think the North contributes much to the economy of the South. Only Aegon had his ideas. Maybe he wanted a unified land because he had a vision of the long darkness which was to come. 

[frenin]

On 2/3/2022 at 1:36 AM, Nathan Stark said:

An invasion of the north would go extremely badly for the invaders, dragons or no. You can invade the north,

It's extremely hard without dragons, it's extremely easy with them. 

 

On 2/3/2022 at 1:36 AM, Nathan Stark said:

but holding it would be impossible during winter

He doesn't need to hold it tho. He just needs to make resistance impossible. If his dragons burn the crops and the settlements... Come winter... ¿What are the Northmen going to eat? ¿Where are they going to live and protect themselves from winter? What happens when Aegon has blocked the seas?

When spring comes back again, the Northmen would either be extinct or so few in numbers that resistance would have been impossible.

 

 

On 2/3/2022 at 1:36 AM, Nathan Stark said:

Aegon the Conquerer got beat by the Dornish, even with three dragons, and something similar would have happened in the north too.

Dorne is not the North. 

Dorne had caves and water sources to protect themselves from the heat of the sun.

 

 

[Nathan Stark]

6 hours ago, frenin said:

It's extremely hard without dragons, it's extremely easy with them. 

 

He doesn't need to hold it tho. He just needs to make resistance impossible. If his dragons burn the crops and the settlements... Come winter... ¿What are the Northmen going to eat? ¿Where are they going to live and protect themselves from winter? What happens when Aegon has blocked the seas?

When spring comes back again, the Northmen would either be extinct or so few in numbers that resistance would have been impossible.

 

 

Dorne is not the North. 

Dorne had caves and water sources to protect themselves from the heat of the sun.

 

 

Nope. Northmen have been living there for far longer than any outside invader. They've seen tough winters and scraped by with little food before, and will do so again. And your argument cuts both ways. Invading armies have to eat too. Having dragons is nice when your enemies are foolish enough to take them on in open battle, but can do little to solve other problems, like aquiring food or navigating difficult terrain. Simply put, invading the North means having to hold it, and holding it is impossible. 

I think when discussing northerners, it is best to assume they would keep on resisting for as long as they could against outside invaders. And since they know the land better than outsiders do, they could make any resistence extremely effective.

Dragons are powerful, but they can't solve every problem one is likely to encounter in war. The north is too big, too rugged and too cold for outsider armies to fight effectively, and even dragons can't be everywhere at once.

And how could Aegon have blocked the seas? I didn't think he had much of a navy.

On 2/3/2022 at 2:09 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

NW itself can destroy the wall, we see and hear it's been done plenty of times. It could very well be the later additions to the wall done by the NW and not the original wall itself but it'd still leave North more open to wildlings. Not that this actually matters, we learn from Jon that the entire Wildling host Mance has gathered is just 30-40000 so they can't actually have much of an impact by being like a bothersome fly but Northerners seem to give much importance to it so well...

That is not accurate. The NW regularly added new ice to the Wall, both to account for natural summer melt, and to make it ever higher. No one ever deliberately destroyed any part of the Wall, and at this point, it stands 800 feet high and is leagues across. It cannot be destroyed by men or by dragonfire.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

That is not accurate. The NW regularly added new ice to the Wall, both to account for natural summer melt, and to make it ever higher. No one ever deliberately destroyed any part of the Wall, and at this point, it stands 800 feet high and is leagues across. It cannot be destroyed by men or by dragonfire.

When wildlings climb.

[BalerionTheCat]

The North could have resisted more or less like Dorne. The North is bigger, even harder to hold in winter, and of less importance for KL than Dorne. Soon the Tagaryen would have lost interest. But why resist? They lost interest anyway, just after Thoren bent the knee.

[Bowen 747]

On 2/2/2022 at 7:32 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Torrhen saw the writing on the wall.  Or should I say Wall.  Moat Cailin is not an effective defense against the Targaryens.  He also saw how the Targaryens generously treated the houses who surrendered and decided it was in the best interest of the north to accept the dragons.  He had his autonomy even after the conquest.  It was only later that the North would lose the brutal lords' right of the first night.  Maybe if he had known he would have fought until every last man of the north was a pile of ashes. 

Torrhen didn't lose anything by kneeling.  The Targaryens were superior in every way. 

Maybe the Stark fool who wanted to fight would have fought to the death to preserve the barbaric practice of the Lord's right to pork newly-wed girls.  But no moral person would want to build a defense for something so wrong. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 2/2/2022 at 4:48 PM, M.kelly said:

I am sorry my english is not very good but i try.

Imagine that the king of the north at the time Thoren stark had not had the idea of going south with 30k soldies, to defend his title and his kingdom but had chosen to stay in the north to prepare for the defense of his kingdom. What would be the scenario of an attack from the north by the the troops of aegon.

Let me see if I understand your question.  Did you mean an attack coming from the south?  Which is where the Targaryen host will be coming from.  It will be an easy campaign with dragons.  One dragon will be enough to lay Winterfell and all of the strongholds in the north to ashes.  One dragon turned Harrenhal into a mass crematory.  Winterfell pales by comparison to Harrenhal. 

The campaign will be difficult without dragons.  I would attack from the sea.  My focal point will be White Harbor.  Allow it to last too long and both sides will suffer.  Back home will suffer too.  It is important to understand that the army are made up of the labor which drives the economy.  No men to harvest mean less coin for the landlords and famine.  There will be famine on both sides unless the Targaryen coffers are so large as to buy food and supplies from Essos for the army.  I gotta ask if all of that is really worth the expense in coin and lives.  Yes, if the Targaryens knew of the white walkers are were making their preparations.  But for the sake of  bringing the north to the kingdom, not worth the lives and the gold which will have been spent.  The Starks on the other side have to make the same arithmetic calculation.  What can it hurt to kneel to a Valyrian? They're not a historical enemy of the Starks.  No pride lost there.  There is no shame on Lord Torren.  Nobody could expect the Targaryens to monitor the daily activities in the north.  Best to kneel and go right back to doing what he was. 

The Targaryens could have taken Dorne if they had really wanted to.  There was a limit which the Targaryens were not prepared to go.  They could have burned every castle and every town down to fine dust.  The Dornish will hold out for a while but they will eventually bend and break.  Aerial bombardment can break the will of the most stubborn people.  I know many Dornish were willing to die but that's not the majority of the population.  I would have kept pounding the coastal cities and castles.  Give them a chance to expend resources to rebuild and then come back and pound them again.  And again.  Slowly the people will surrender until finally even the Martells will either commit suicide, die fighting in desperation, or bend their gouty knees. 

On 2/2/2022 at 4:48 PM, M.kelly said:

2)knowing that when aegon heard the news of the nordic troops incursion into the riverlands it was after battle of the fields of fire , he was on high garden and about to marche on old town and at this golden age, dorne, the islands  of iron and precisely the north had not yet bien conquered , what would be have done (argon)?

How would the conquest be ?

 

[frenin]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Nope. Northmen have been living there for far longer than any outside invader.

Yea.

 

On 2/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Nathan Stark said:

hey've seen tough winters and scraped by with little food before, and will do so again.

Do you realize that the Northmen do no have super powers right?? The few who usually survive every harsh winter do so because they can eat, however little the food is, but more importantly because they are sheltered from the cold.

How are the northmen going to survive the cold if the Targaryen simply reduce every major settlement and crops to ash??  Are they going to protect themselves from the terrible winter in the woods?? In ruined castles?

 

 

On 2/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Nathan Stark said:

And your argument cuts both ways. Invading armies have to eat too.

They can be nicely suppplied from White Harbour and ships can go to supply those armies from the Iron Islands and Lannisport... In summer and spring, there's no point in going in winter.

 

 

On 2/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Having dragons is nice when your enemies are foolish enough to take them on in open battle, but can do little to solve other problems, like aquiring food or navigating difficult terrain. Simply put, invading the North means having to hold it, and holding it is impossible. 

Dragons are not just to destroy armies tho, the Targaryen's brutal campaign in Dorne completely decimated the population simply by destroying their settlements, then ofc hunger and disease came from those conditions.

Acquiring food is perfectly possible but it's even easier to constantly  supply food from a fertile and united south.

Holding the North is quite feasible if the resistance is too weak to amount to nothing. You're overstimating the North's hand by a lot.

 

 

On 2/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Nathan Stark said:

I think when discussing northerners, it is best to assume they would keep on resisting for as long as they could against outside invaders.

Why? You're assuming that because the Dornish did.

 

On 2/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Nathan Stark said:

And since they know the land better than outsiders do, they could make any resistence extremely effective.

If outsiders care to play their game they would, if they simply pull a William the Conqueror and simply dedicated themselves to torch the North to the ground and then left them to die in winter, the resistance would have died before it began.

 

 

On 2/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Nathan Stark said:

Dragons are powerful, but they can't solve every problem one is likely to encounter in war. The north is too big, too rugged and too cold for outsider armies to fight effectively, and even dragons can't be everywhere at once.

They can't solve every problem, i agree on that. Dragons work just fine for harrying the North however. That's all the Targs need to win.

 

 

On 2/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Nathan Stark said:

And how could Aegon have blocked the seas? I didn't think he had much of a navy.

On 2/3/2022 at 8:09 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Both the Lannisters and Arryn had their own navy and few ships is still better than the North's no ship policy.

[Loose Bolt]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Both the Lannisters and Arryn had their own navy and few ships is still better than the North's no ship policy.

Do Mormonts swim or walk to main continent if they do not have any ships ?