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Relations between the Stark kids, following the reunion


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9 hours ago, MissM said:

When he heard about the marriage, that was an opportunity for some reaction. Instead we got Jon asking about Tyrion and his plight and recalling how he once him a friend. Yeah. Ramsay has taken Tyrion's spot in the Outline triangle.

As I already said, he didn't reflect on the other significant events that he would've learned about at the same time as the marriage (like the death of Robb and the disappearance of Arya), so that doesn't mean much regarding his feelings towards the marriage. And Jon thought of Tyrion (he didn't ask about him) in connection with Tywin's murder, not the marriage.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

ADWD centered heavily on a forced marriage between Arya and Ramsay. Now another sister is entering a forced political marriage. GRRM could have used this moment to have Jon reflect on Sansa going through something similar. Just anything all really. But he didn't. The comparison was fair.

You're reversing the chronology of events. Sansa's forced marriage is (as far as Jon knows) already in the past at the time.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

Lets be honest here, he barely thinks of Sansa regardless of the reason. The bar is not high. I think you would succeed in your larger point if you used that angle instead. 

I don't quite understand your point here. As I pointed out above, Jon thinks only once about Tyrion in ADWD and that was in connection to Tywin's death. It's hardly significant that he didn't think about Sansa at the time (even disregarding that Jon considered her dead), since she had nothing to do with this event.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

The earlier quote you posted where Jon thinks all his siblings are dead happened in ASOS. Why is Jon considering her claim to Winterfell in ADWD if he thought she was simply dead in ASOS?

Jon learned nothing in the intervening period to change his belief about her being dead. Asserting Sansa's right to Winterfell isn't a contradiction - since it's not definitely known whether she's dead, Jon is correct in pointing out that she is the rightful heir.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

Like most people who knew her, Arya is presumed dead. 

"Arya Stark?" Tyrion cocked his head. "And Bolton? I might have known Frey would not have the stomach to act alone. But Arya . . . Varys and Ser Jacelyn searched for her for more than half a year. Arya Stark is surely dead."

"So was Renly, until the Blackwater." - Tyrion, ASOS 

"His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King’s Landing, with Father." - Jon, ADWD

That did not stop Jon from imagining Arya alive:

"He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again." Jon, ACOK

Your final quote is completely out of context. Jon had no reason to think that Arya was dead in ACOK. Before he went north on the ranging, he had not received any news about Arya and had only Mormont's guess that Arya and Sansa were being kept as hostages in King's Landing, so this is what he thought had happened at the time. He would have received the information that led him to believe that Arya was dead only after the arrival of Stannis at the Wall.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

Robb is all over Jon's pov chapters in ADWD even though he knows for certain Robb is very very dead. Jon thinks of Robb more times in ADWD than all of Jon's collective thoughts/mentions of Sansa in the entire book series. Forget Arya (too easy), the affection, respect and love Jon holds for Robb is unreachable for Sansa.

GRRM has been crystal clear on what Jon's attitude is regarding both sisters. It's plain as day. Sansa - Familial love by default because she is family. Arya - A deep lasting bond/love that pushes a man to break his solemn vows. 

I think we're getting sidetracked. Of course Jon was closer to Arya and Robb than to Sansa. But I think it's rather clear that your specific comparison about Jon's thoughts on the two marriages simply isn't valid.

 

 

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On 2/16/2022 at 2:07 PM, BlackLightning said:

I actually think Rickon will get on super close with Sansa given that she looks like his mother. I know he's young but he'll remember Cat's look.

If Sansa takes up a maternal role with Rickon, he could definitely be very close to her. And Jon resembles Ned. He could take up a paternal role with Rickon too.

On 2/16/2022 at 2:07 PM, BlackLightning said:

I'm not understanding how an aunt whom he never even knew about is too close for comfort but a cousin who was raised as his half-sibling is not.

That's exactly my problem with Jon-Sansa or Jon-Arya. They were raised as siblings, even if it was half siblings. Jon and Dany did not they were related, so that puts a whole different color on things. (Having said that, readers may still have a problem with it) And westeros by and large recognizes sibling incest to be bad. 

On 2/16/2022 at 2:07 PM, BlackLightning said:

I think the taboo against cousin marriage is only an American/western European thing.

Taboo against cousin marriage is a recent phenomenon for sure. And it's because science has only recently found out how and why its bad. Historically I can see why marrying cousins made sense, but GRRM is writing his books for a modern audience. So it would be a bad idea on his part as a writer to go with a incest-is-ok approach with any characters.

And the taboo against cousin marriage goes beyond america/western europe. In a lot of south asian cultures first cousins are considered akin to siblings, even if you see them a few times a year for holidays/birthdays.

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I don't see any romantic relation between Jon and Arya or Sansa, for the very simple reason that they are his "sisters" and he loves them as such, and that he would surely feel disgusted at the idea of having any sexual or romantic relation with them. 

Besides I am more interested about the Stark siblings' interactions than any romantic relation involving them. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/19/2022 at 4:06 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't see any romantic relation between Jon and Arya or Sansa, for the very simple reason that they are his "sisters" and he loves them as such, and that he would surely feel disgusted at the idea of having any sexual or romantic relation with them. 

Besides I am more interested about the Stark siblings' interactions than any romantic relation involving them. 

I mean, but truthfully you can't see this as the case in books 1 and 2. If you go through a reread with knowledge of the potential love triangle outcome, the clues are ALL OVER when it comes to Jon thinking romantically about Arya, and Arya about Jon.

I can see what you mean going forward. I don't think that's the case in the future based on how their paths diverged, but to imply disgust is, I think, placing a bit of your own views onto Jon's character.

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On 3/4/2022 at 2:31 AM, FourRavensBlackOnWhite said:

I mean, but truthfully you can't see this as the case in books 1 and 2. If you go through a reread with knowledge of the potential love triangle outcome, the clues are ALL OVER when it comes to Jon thinking romantically about Arya, and Arya about Jon.

If you ignore the fact that the two are siblings and Arya is nine, I guess you can imagine that the strong affection between them is romantic. Jon wouldn't call Arya "little sister" seven times in their brief time together on page if this relationship was supposed be anything but that between a brother and sister.

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On 3/6/2022 at 9:16 AM, GMantis said:

If you ignore the fact that the two are siblings and Arya is nine, I guess you can imagine that the strong affection between them is romantic. 

Oh please, as if children can't have crushes. And yes they believe themselves siblings, but they're not, which may contribute to such odd feelings.

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43 minutes ago, FourRavensBlackOnWhite said:

Oh please, as if children can't have crushes. And yes they believe themselves siblings, but they're not, which may contribute to such odd feelings.

crushes yes , like Arya's crush for Gendry and Sansa's for Waymar , but I don't think Arya-Jon reads particularly as romantic . they seem to share a strong Brother-Sister bond . that doesn't just change when they realize they're not technically siblings. 

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6 hours ago, FourRavensBlackOnWhite said:

Oh please, as if children can't have crushes. And yes they believe themselves siblings, but they're not, which may contribute to such odd feelings.

First, Arya is nine or ten or eleven years old. She hasn't even had her cycles yet. 

Second, Arya and Jon grew up as brother and sister in a family that was supportive (mostly, besides that turd Catelyn and Sansa during the "I'm a little shit" phase). You just have to read him mentioning her or her him to know that there's a low chance of sexual attraction. 

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I like the idea of Arya bonding with but also getting a taste of her own medicine by having to deal with Rickon who'd be even more feral and headstrong that she was in Winterfell back before tragedy hit her family, and her realizing that she must haven't made it easier for her mother and Sansa that they did for her.

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On 3/11/2022 at 2:26 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I like the idea of Arya bonding with but also getting a taste of her own medicine by having to deal with Rickon who'd be even more feral and headstrong that she was in Winterfell back before tragedy hit her family, and her realizing that she must haven't made it easier for her mother and Sansa that they did for her.

I think there are things most of us did as little kids that we realize were awful as adults :) 

Jokes apart, I don't know if Arya is old enough for dealing patiently with an unruly child, but she might just be the best person to deal with Rickon considering she may understand his mindset the best.

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On 3/12/2022 at 9:31 PM, Apoplexy said:

I think there are things most of us did as little kids that we realize were awful as adults :) 

Jokes apart, I don't know if Arya is old enough for dealing patiently with an unruly child, but she might just be the best person to deal with Rickon considering she may understand his mindset the best.

Sure, though maybe Sansa would also fare better than expected given her experience with "brats" even if these brats were very different from Rickon and more of the spoiled rotten kind than feral one. 

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On 3/14/2022 at 9:37 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Sure, though maybe Sansa would also fare better than expected given her experience with "brats" even if these brats were very different from Rickon and more of the spoiled rotten kind than feral one. 

Sansa could indeed take up a maternal role with Rickon. Her and Arya might need the good cop bad cop routine to deal with Rickon.

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  • 5 months later...

I imagine that, similar to the show, Bran will have become more emotionally detached and thus that it would cause some pain because of the distance his siblings feel from him, and of him caring for and loving them but not knowing how it properly show it before Jon, Sansa, Arya and Rickon accept the consequences of Bran's transformation as a full-fledged warg and greenseer. 

For Arya and Rickon it's their increased rage and ruthlessness that will be a source of problems, especially between Arya and Sansa, and with Rickon being so wild and unpredictable. 

That will be surely be some of the problems the siblings will have to deal with after reunion, there will be a time of tensions and misunderstandings before they fully adjust and accept each other again. 

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From aryainwinterfell on ASOIAF University on Tumblr:

Quote

 

Of all Arya’s relationships, one that’s not given enough credit is Arya/Rickon. Since he’s not a POV character and he’s too young to take an active role in the overall story as yet, we don’t have as much material on him yet. But one thing we can garner from canon so far is that he is universally loved. From just Arya’s POV, every mention of him is positive and shows how much she genuinely cares for him: 

That was when Arya missed her brothers most. She wanted to tease Bran and play with baby Rickon and have Robb smile at her. She wanted Jon to muss up her hair and call her “little sister” and finish her sentences with her.

A whooping gang of small children went running past, chasing a rolling hoop. Arya stared at them with resentment, remembering the times she’d played at hoops with Bran and Jon and their baby brother Rickon. She wondered how big Rickon had grown, and whether Bran was sad. She would have given anything if Jon had been here to call her “little sister” and muss her hair.

She yearned to see her mother again, and Robb and Bran and Rickon … but it was Jon Snow she thought of most.

For a moment Arya forgot to breathe. Dead? Bran and Rickon, dead? What does he mean? What does he mean about Winterfell, Joffrey could never take Winterfell, never, Robb would never let him. Then she remembered that Robb was not at Winterfell. He was away in the west, and Bran was crippled, and Rickon only four. It took all her strength to remain still and silent, the way Syrio Forel had taught her, to stand there like a stick of furniture. She felt tears gathering in her eyes, and willed them away. It’s not true, it can’t be true, it’s just some Lannister lie.

Might be it’s from Robb, come to say it wasn’t true about Bran and Rickon. She chewed on her lip, hoping. If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan’s stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn’t ever fly back unless I wanted to.

She could feel the hole inside her every morning when she woke. It wasn’t hunger, though sometimes there was that too. It was a hollow place, an emptiness where her heart had been, where her brothers had lived, and her parents.

It’s sad that we won’t get any footage of them together in the current adaptation. But hopefully GRRM will make up for that in TWOW and ADOS.

 

It's true that the relationship between Arya and Rickon is really sweet when you think about it, and that the two could truly be very close if they reunite, with both having similar headstrong and wild personalities, and ironically Arya could help Rickon discipline and channel his anger into a more useful and efficient way while Rickon could help Arya to master her warging ability. 

I could see the two of them practicing duelling, archery, horse riding, racing and going to go on hunting trips together. 

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