Relations between the Stark kids, following the reunion

[Harry the Hair]

31 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I don't know man... Val & Sandor seem to be there for Jon and Sansa's romance.

Yeah I read it this way too. I'm not disparaging the possibility of JonSa but I feel like Sandor and Val were written to be their endgame romance. If not endgame then there's at least some unfinished business between them that needs attending to before they can move on to another relationship. That being said, idk how different a resurrected Jon will be from his previous self. A lot is up in the air and anything can happen at this point. Dammit George give us at least something already. :'( 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

I doubt that GRRM is planning any romance between Jon and one of his "sisters" and personally I am against it.

[MissM]

On 2/12/2022 at 10:34 PM, EggBlue said:

in favor of JonSa:) 

1) I believe if Jon's about to enter a relationship with either of his cousin/sisters ,it should be the one he wasn't that close to as a brother. Jon clearly sees Arya as his little sister and while his relationship with Sansa wasn't nonexistence , they were never close as far as we know. therefore , whenever he realizes he's not their brother, romanticizing the one he never particularly thought as his little sister would be easier.

2) for what it's worth , Sansa's first crush (Waymar Royce)  resembled Jon in looks (dark hair, dark grey eyes), personality (yes, Jon was indeed somewhat of an arrogant lordling at the beginning) and choice of profession (NightsWatch) ... meanwhile , although Jon's first love couldn't be further from Sansa but her hair was kissed by fire like Sansa! 

3) Jon's still biased about lady-like women and Sansa used to put too much value in status. But , Jon meets Alys Karstark a strong un-warrior winter lady much like Sansa who is called winter lady , as well. (or was it winter maid?) . and at the same time Sansa pretends to be a bastard... coincidence?!

1. That's not an expectation you can place on GRRM especially after one of his latest tweets referencing one of the greatest (and most successful) love stories involving a pair that is very similar to Jon & Arya in their bond.

Alys had the same strength and fire that Arya has and which Jon recognises. Alys even speaks like Arya as well as looking like her. In fact before he calls her *Winter's Lady* Jon looks at Alys and thinks of Arya's smile.

Jon turned to Alys Karstark. “My lady. Are you ready?”

“Yes. Oh, yes.”

"You’re not scared?”

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart.

“Let him be scared of me.”

The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

“Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand. - Jon, ADWD

Alys is very much am Arya proxy. The symbolism in this scene is connected to her.

 

2. The Starks and Royce share ancestors and their blood is of the First Men, hence their similar features. The fact Sansa has other fancies and crush who vary FAR from the Northern look should be just as telling.

 

3. Jon's first love was nothing like Sansa in action, temperament, looks, personality, interests... I could go on. The one thing Jonsas hold on to for dearvlife is the red hair thing... yet GRRM has Jon comparing Ygritte's hair to Arya in the books.  Val/Ygritte/Arya are not like Sansa at all. Remember Jon thinks fondly of Val at the mere thought of her cutting a guard's throat. Jon hopes Arya does the same to Ramsey's in their marriage bed. That fierceness is what he appreciates in Alys' boldness in that Winter's Lady scene.

 

[MissM]

On 2/13/2022 at 4:34 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

But it was supposed to be as such with Tyrion-Arya-Jon Triangle. Now the gap has been scrapped and Sansa married to Tyrion, it will probably JonSa or perhaps a triangle with Tyrion but I doubt Tyrion would want her with Sailor's Wife on the horizon.

Tyrion marrying Sansa is a plot change that is insignificant to the Outline. Ramsay now occupies that rivalry with Jon. While Tyrion is thought of fondly by Jon the dwarf despite marrying Sansa. The way Jon reacts to both marriages says it all: Arya/Ramsay helps to spark a march to battle & Jon breaking his vows. Sansa/Tyrion was not worth a single word or space in of the books. It didn't even matter enough to reflect on it at any point in Jon's chapters.

It's so funny that even Tysha is described similarly to Arya. She's also perfectly positioned in Braavos with that Sailor's Wife you speak of 

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, MissM said:

The Starks and Royce share ancestors and their blood is of the First Men, hence their similar features. The fact Sansa has other fancies and crush who vary FAR from the Northern look should be just as telling.

According to wiktionary, Royce is a matronymic surname, derived from, guess what, ROSE.

[GMantis]

3 hours ago, MissM said:

Tyrion marrying Sansa is a plot change that is insignificant to the Outline. Ramsay now occupies that rivalry with Jon. While Tyrion is thought of fondly by Jon the dwarf despite marrying Sansa. The way Jon reacts to both marriages says it all: Arya/Ramsay helps to spark a march to battle & Jon breaking his vows. Sansa/Tyrion was not worth a single word or space in of the books. It didn't even matter enough to reflect on it at any point in Jon's chapters.

This is not really a fair comparison. The earliest time Jon could've learned about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was at the same time as he learned about Tyrions' arrest and her disappearance, so there was never even an opportunity to reflect on the marriage. Furthermore, at the same time he also learnt about Robb's death and about Arya's disappearance. He thereupon concluded that both of his sisters, like his brothers, were dead:

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I loved Robb, loved all of them … I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there’s only me.

And apart from this moment, he never reflects on any of these deaths - even Arya's. So what Jon reflects about or what he's shown reflecting about is not at all a good guide about his true feelings.

Of course, Jon later learned that Arya was alive, but he never received any information to reconsider his belief that Sansa was dead. See how he remembers her alongside his dead brothers after receiving the pink letter. So when Jon thinks about Tyrion in ADWD, it's reasonable to believe that he simply doesn't associate him with the sister he now believes dead.

In conclusion, Jon is obviously immensely more concerned about the current marriage between the living Arya and the monster in human form Ramsay than he is about the marriage between the dead Sansa (as far as he knows) and Tyrion who he considered a friend. But this says nothing about his attitude towards either sister. We would know about this only if we knew his reaction to Sansa being married to Ramsay, which is an interesting hypothetical but obviously can't happen in canon.

 

3 hours ago, MissM said:

It's so funny that even Tysha is described similarly to Arya. She's also perfectly positioned in Braavos with that Sailor's Wife you speak of 

She's described as dark haired - a rather vague term, since it could mean both black and brown haired, and as having blue eyes. So you could more easily argue that Tysha is described similarly to Sansa

Edited February 15, 2022 by GMantis

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

What should be the relations between the girls, Arya and Sansa, and Bran and Rickon following the reunions ? 

How well would each get along with the others ? Who should be closer to who ? 

[Apoplexy]

I see Sansa and Arya being closer. I also see Jon and Sansa being closer (not romantically). Bran's relationship with his siblings depends on how 'normal and human' he stays. Even if he emotionally remains as he was, his greensight is going to affect his relationship with his siblings. He might see something he may not like. Rickon is the wildcard. He'll probably be closer to his brothers than sisters, mostly because of his young age.

[BlackLightning]

On 2/12/2022 at 4:34 PM, EggBlue said:

But, Jon meets Alys Karstark a strong un-warrior winter lady much like Sansa who is called winter lady , as well. (or was it winter maid?) . and at the same time Sansa pretends to be a bastard... coincidence?!

It was winter maid.

On 2/13/2022 at 10:35 AM, Apoplexy said:

GRRM's original plan was to have a Jon-Arya romantic angle. He scrapped the idea (thank god, it was a terrible idea), so I doubt he will switch to a Jon-Sansa romance.

I second this.

I think the new love triangle will between Jon-Dany-Tyrion or Jon-Dany-Bran

On 2/13/2022 at 12:16 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

As for Danaerys, it's too close for comfort, being his aunt and all. A cousin can be ok for Jon who was raised a First Man but going for an aunt is too Targaryen (even though we've seen some half uncle - niece stuff in Stark tree)

I'm not understanding how an aunt whom he never even knew about is too close for comfort but a cousin who was raised as his half-sibling is not.

On 2/13/2022 at 12:27 PM, Springwatch said:

Although - I've no idea how widespread the taboo against cousin marriage is in the world today. People could be reading this forum who are married to their cousin.

I think the taboo against cousin marriage is only an American/western European thing.

20 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Rickon is the wildcard. He'll probably be closer to his brothers than sisters, mostly because of his young age.

I actually think Rickon will get on super close with Sansa given that she looks like his mother. I know he's young but he'll remember Cat's look.

Rickon might actually hate Bran.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm not understanding how an aunt whom he never even knew about is too close for comfort but a cousin who was raised as his half-sibling is not

Because it's too... Targaryen, to say it politely.

 

11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think the taboo against cousin marriage is only an American/western European thing

It wasn't much of a taboo in Western world either. You can find plenty of important people married to their cousins if you go back just a few decades.

[BlackLightning]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Because it's too... Targaryen, to say it politely.

 

It wasn't much of a taboo in Western world either. You can find plenty of important people married to their cousins if you go back just a few decades.

What do you mean by too Targaryen?

 

And yeah.

It's more of a modern mainstream American thing. Because I know Native Americans on reservations and fringe groups in Appalachia still practice it.

I personally don't have a problem with cousin marriages. I wouldn't recommend it but it makes sense and I respect other people's culture.

 

Where are you from Corvo? If you live in Australia, Canada

[EggBlue]

29 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Rickon might actually hate Bran.

I haven't seen anyone say that before but it makes sense.

 

14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Because it's too... Targaryen, to say it politely.

I don't know if you specifically think like that or not. but it seems an awful lot of fans see the Targaryen incest as a genetic thing (for example they see Jaimie/Cersei practice of incest as a clue to them being Targaryens) ,when it's actually cultural. they didn't exclude romance from siblings/kins relation which is why they could genuinely develop romantic feelings for their siblings/uncles/nephews/... that's why later some Targs that got religious or interacted more with Westerosi culture , took a fresh take on this custom and saw it as a sin / inappropriate act /.. . they don't just attract each other like magnets due to being related!

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

don't know if you specifically think like that or not. but it seems an awful lot of fans see the Targaryen incest as a genetic thing (for example they see Jaimie/Cersei practice of incest as a clue to them being Targaryens) ,when it's actually cultural. they didn't exclude romance from siblings/kins relation which is why they could genuinely develop romantic feelings for their siblings/uncles/nephews/... that's why later some Targs that got religious or interacted more with Westerosi culture , took a fresh take on this custom and saw it as a sin / inappropriate act /.. . they don't just attract each other like magnets due to being related!

I don't know, we have for example Rhae using a love potion for Aegon to marry her. If I recall she was just a little kid at the time.

[Corvo the Crow]

23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

What do you mean by too Targaryen?

Incestous.

[HoodedCrow]

Queen Victoria married her first cousin. 

[EggBlue]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don't know, we have for example Rhae using a love potion for Aegon to marry her. If I recall she was just a little kid at the time.

yeah , but for a little kid it's not genetic lust. she was either jealous of her older sister or loved her brother a lot. for the former , well obviously a lot of little girls tend to want to be like their older sisters; only in this case Rhae's sister was marrying their brother instead of having better hair! and the latter?  as I said earlier when they see romance as normal between siblings , it's not hard to imagine a kid's first crush to be her brother . 

[BlackLightning]

18 hours ago, EggBlue said:

it's not hard to imagine a kid's first crush to be her brother . 

I'd go so far as to say that it's NOT unheard of for a kid's first crush to be a cousin that they only see a few times a year.

Edited February 17, 2022 by BlackLightning

[HoodedCrow]

It didn’t go well for Cleopatra. The Ptolemies did force marriages because women were important for breeding.

[MissM]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:35 PM, GMantis said:

This is not really a fair comparison. The earliest time Jon could've learned about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was at the same time as he learned about Tyrions' arrest and her disappearance, so there was never even an opportunity to reflect on the marriage. 

When he heard about the marriage, that was an opportunity for some reaction. Instead we got Jon asking about Tyrion and his plight and recalling how he once him a friend. Yeah. Ramsay has taken Tyrion's spot in the Outline triangle.

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And apart from this moment, he never reflects on any of these deaths - even Arya's. So what Jon reflects about or what he's shown reflecting about is not at all a good guide about his true feelings.

ADWD centered heavily on a forced marriage between Arya and Ramsay. Now another sister is entering a forced political marriage. GRRM could have used this moment to have Jon reflect on Sansa going through something similar. Just anything all really. But he didn't. The comparison was fair.

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Of course, Jon later learned that Arya was alive, but he never received any information to reconsider his belief that Sansa was dead. See how he remembers her alongside his dead brothers after receiving the pink letter. So when Jon thinks about Tyrion in ADWD, it's reasonable to believe that he simply doesn't associate him with the sister he now believes dead.

Lets be honest here, he barely thinks of Sansa regardless of the reason. The bar is not high. I think you would succeed in your larger point if you used that angle instead. 

The earlier quote you posted where Jon thinks all his siblings are dead happened in ASOS. Why is Jon considering her claim to Winterfell in ADWD if he thought she was simply dead in ASOS?

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In conclusion, Jon is obviously immensely more concerned about the current marriage between the living Arya and the monster in human form Ramsay than he is about the marriage between the dead Sansa (as far as he knows) and Tyrion who he considered a friend. But this says nothing about his attitude towards either sister. 

Like most people who knew her, Arya is presumed dead. 

"Arya Stark?" Tyrion cocked his head. "And Bolton? I might have known Frey would not have the stomach to act alone. But Arya . . . Varys and Ser Jacelyn searched for her for more than half a year. Arya Stark is surely dead."

"So was Renly, until the Blackwater." - Tyrion, ASOS 

"His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King’s Landing, with Father." - Jon, ADWD

That did not stop Jon from imagining Arya alive:

"He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again." Jon, ACOK

Robb is all over Jon's pov chapters in ADWD even though he knows for certain Robb is very very dead. Jon thinks of Robb more times in ADWD than all of Jon's collective thoughts/mentions of Sansa in the entire book series. Forget Arya (too easy), the affection, respect and love Jon holds for Robb is unreachable for Sansa.

GRRM has been crystal clear on what Jon's attitude is regarding both sisters. It's plain as day. Sansa - Familial love by default because she is family. Arya - A deep lasting bond/love that pushes a man to break his solemn vows. 

[Corvo the Crow]

@MissM Jon thinking more of Robb and Arya is only natural as these were the two siblings he spent most time with. He would especially think more of Robb in ADWD because of the whole Winterfell deal.  Him not giving much thoughts on Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion is also normal

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He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn? - AGOT Jon I

Sansa was always supposed to marry south and he was betrothed to Joffrey until shortly before this marriage. Jon has bonded with Tyrion and knows him to be a decent guy, whereas Ramsay is Ramsay.

When it matters the most, immediately after he learns of Ned's execution he asks for Sansa and Arya both

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The Old Bear shrugged. "A boy king … I imagine he'll listen to his mother. A pity the dwarf isn't with them. He's the lad's uncle, and he saw our need when he visited us. It was a bad thing, your lady mother taking him captive—"

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. "My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—"

"Pycelle makes no mention of them, but doubtless they'll be treated gently. I will ask about them when I write." Mormont shook his head. "This could not have happened at a worse time. If ever the realm needed a strong king … there are dark days and cold nights ahead, I feel it in my bones …" He gave Jon a long shrewd look. "I hope you are not thinking of doing anything stupid, boy." AGOT Jon VII

 

Even beyond the wall he dreams of Sansa, along with Arya

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He woke to the sight of his own breath misting in the cold morning air. When he moved, his bones ached. Ghost was gone, the fire burnt out. Jon reached to pull aside the cloak he'd hung over the rock, and found it stiff and frozen. He crept beneath it and stood up in a forest turned to crystal.

The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice.

So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he'd dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all. - ACoK Jon III

 

Melisandre trying to persuade him to take Stannis' offer

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"Jon." Melisandre was so close he could feel the warmth of her breath. "R'hllor is the only true god. A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes. Open your heart and let the light of the Lord come in. Burn these weirwoods, and accept Winterfell as a gift of the Lord of Light."

When Jon had been very young, too young to understand what it meant to be a bastard, he used to dream that one day Winterfell might be his. Later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams. Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved all of them . . . I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there's only me. All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do . . .

After reading Pink Letter

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"Might be all a skin o' lies." Tormund scratched under his beard. "If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn't make it so."

"He has Lightbringer. He talks of heads upon the walls of Winterfell. He knows about the spearwives and their number." He knows about Mance Rayder. "No. There is truth in there."

"I won't say you're wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?"

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

This is what Ramsay is like, as opposed to Tyrion. If it were Sansa that married to Ramsay and Arya married to Tyrion, I very much doubt his actions and thoughts would have changed.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Corvo the Crow