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Relations between the Stark kids, following the reunion


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Radiant!

 

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His half sisters escorted the royal princes. Arya was paired with plump young Tommen, whose white-blond hair was longer than hers. Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon's vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister's hair and his mother's deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey's pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell's Great Hall.

Jon the Jelly.

How many times has "radiant" been used in the series? Only four times.

Cat and Edmure before his wedding

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"I believe she liked me. Why was she crying?"

"She's a maid on the eve of her wedding. A few tears are to be expected." Lysa had wept lakes the morning of their own wedding, though she had managed to be dry-eyed and radiant when Jon Arryn swept his cream-and-blue cloak about her shoulders.

"She's prettier than I dared hope." Edmure raised a hand before she could speak. "I know there are more important things, spare me the sermon, septa. Even so . . . did you see some of those other maids Frey trotted out? The one with the twitch? Was that the shaking sickness? And those twins had more craters and eruptions on their faces than Petyr Pimple. When I saw that lot, I knew Roslin would be bald and one-eyed, with Jinglebell's wits and Black Walder's temper. But she seems gentle as well as fair." He looked perplexed. "Why would the old weasel refuse to let me choose unless he meant to foist off someone hideous?"

 

 

Daven and Jaime during siege of Riverrun

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"How is Cersei? As beautiful as ever?"

"Radiant." Fickle. "Golden." False as fool's gold. Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other. "The sooner we are done with Riverrun, the sooner I'll be back at Cersei's side." What Jaime would do then he did not know.

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To rule Meereen I must win the Meereenese, however much I may despise them. "I am ready," she told Irri.

Reznak and Skahaz waited atop the marble steps. "Great queen," declared Reznak mo Reznak, "you are so radiant today I fear to look on you." The seneschal wore a tokar of maroon silk with a golden fringe. A small, damp man, he smelled as if he had bathed in perfume and spoke a bastard form of High Valyrian, much corrupted and flavored with a thick Ghiscari growl.

"You are kind to say so," Dany answered, in the same tongue.

 

 

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9 hours ago, MissM said:

When he heard about the marriage, that was an opportunity for some reaction. Instead we got Jon asking about Tyrion and his plight and recalling how he once him a friend. Yeah. Ramsay has taken Tyrion's spot in the Outline triangle.

As I already said, he didn't reflect on the other significant events that he would've learned about at the same time as the marriage (like the death of Robb and the disappearance of Arya), so that doesn't mean much regarding his feelings towards the marriage. And Jon thought of Tyrion (he didn't ask about him) in connection with Tywin's murder, not the marriage.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

ADWD centered heavily on a forced marriage between Arya and Ramsay. Now another sister is entering a forced political marriage. GRRM could have used this moment to have Jon reflect on Sansa going through something similar. Just anything all really. But he didn't. The comparison was fair.

You're reversing the chronology of events. Sansa's forced marriage is (as far as Jon knows) already in the past at the time.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

Lets be honest here, he barely thinks of Sansa regardless of the reason. The bar is not high. I think you would succeed in your larger point if you used that angle instead. 

I don't quite understand your point here. As I pointed out above, Jon thinks only once about Tyrion in ADWD and that was in connection to Tywin's death. It's hardly significant that he didn't think about Sansa at the time (even disregarding that Jon considered her dead), since she had nothing to do with this event.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

The earlier quote you posted where Jon thinks all his siblings are dead happened in ASOS. Why is Jon considering her claim to Winterfell in ADWD if he thought she was simply dead in ASOS?

Jon learned nothing in the intervening period to change his belief about her being dead. Asserting Sansa's right to Winterfell isn't a contradiction - since it's not definitely known whether she's dead, Jon is correct in pointing out that she is the rightful heir.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

Like most people who knew her, Arya is presumed dead. 

"Arya Stark?" Tyrion cocked his head. "And Bolton? I might have known Frey would not have the stomach to act alone. But Arya . . . Varys and Ser Jacelyn searched for her for more than half a year. Arya Stark is surely dead."

"So was Renly, until the Blackwater." - Tyrion, ASOS 

"His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King’s Landing, with Father." - Jon, ADWD

That did not stop Jon from imagining Arya alive:

"He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again." Jon, ACOK

Your final quote is completely out of context. Jon had no reason to think that Arya was dead in ACOK. Before he went north on the ranging, he had not received any news about Arya and had only Mormont's guess that Arya and Sansa were being kept as hostages in King's Landing, so this is what he thought had happened at the time. He would have received the information that led him to believe that Arya was dead only after the arrival of Stannis at the Wall.

 

9 hours ago, MissM said:

Robb is all over Jon's pov chapters in ADWD even though he knows for certain Robb is very very dead. Jon thinks of Robb more times in ADWD than all of Jon's collective thoughts/mentions of Sansa in the entire book series. Forget Arya (too easy), the affection, respect and love Jon holds for Robb is unreachable for Sansa.

GRRM has been crystal clear on what Jon's attitude is regarding both sisters. It's plain as day. Sansa - Familial love by default because she is family. Arya - A deep lasting bond/love that pushes a man to break his solemn vows. 

I think we're getting sidetracked. Of course Jon was closer to Arya and Robb than to Sansa. But I think it's rather clear that your specific comparison about Jon's thoughts on the two marriages simply isn't valid.

 

 

Edited by GMantis
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On 2/16/2022 at 2:07 PM, BlackLightning said:

I actually think Rickon will get on super close with Sansa given that she looks like his mother. I know he's young but he'll remember Cat's look.

If Sansa takes up a maternal role with Rickon, he could definitely be very close to her. And Jon resembles Ned. He could take up a paternal role with Rickon too.

On 2/16/2022 at 2:07 PM, BlackLightning said:

I'm not understanding how an aunt whom he never even knew about is too close for comfort but a cousin who was raised as his half-sibling is not.

That's exactly my problem with Jon-Sansa or Jon-Arya. They were raised as siblings, even if it was half siblings. Jon and Dany did not they were related, so that puts a whole different color on things. (Having said that, readers may still have a problem with it) And westeros by and large recognizes sibling incest to be bad. 

On 2/16/2022 at 2:07 PM, BlackLightning said:

I think the taboo against cousin marriage is only an American/western European thing.

Taboo against cousin marriage is a recent phenomenon for sure. And it's because science has only recently found out how and why its bad. Historically I can see why marrying cousins made sense, but GRRM is writing his books for a modern audience. So it would be a bad idea on his part as a writer to go with a incest-is-ok approach with any characters.

And the taboo against cousin marriage goes beyond america/western europe. In a lot of south asian cultures first cousins are considered akin to siblings, even if you see them a few times a year for holidays/birthdays.

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I don't see any romantic relation between Jon and Arya or Sansa, for the very simple reason that they are his "sisters" and he loves them as such, and that he would surely feel disgusted at the idea of having any sexual or romantic relation with them. 

Besides I am more interested about the Stark siblings' interactions than any romantic relation involving them. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/19/2022 at 4:06 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I don't see any romantic relation between Jon and Arya or Sansa, for the very simple reason that they are his "sisters" and he loves them as such, and that he would surely feel disgusted at the idea of having any sexual or romantic relation with them. 

Besides I am more interested about the Stark siblings' interactions than any romantic relation involving them. 

I mean, but truthfully you can't see this as the case in books 1 and 2. If you go through a reread with knowledge of the potential love triangle outcome, the clues are ALL OVER when it comes to Jon thinking romantically about Arya, and Arya about Jon.

I can see what you mean going forward. I don't think that's the case in the future based on how their paths diverged, but to imply disgust is, I think, placing a bit of your own views onto Jon's character.

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On 3/4/2022 at 2:31 AM, FourRavensBlackOnWhite said:

I mean, but truthfully you can't see this as the case in books 1 and 2. If you go through a reread with knowledge of the potential love triangle outcome, the clues are ALL OVER when it comes to Jon thinking romantically about Arya, and Arya about Jon.

If you ignore the fact that the two are siblings and Arya is nine, I guess you can imagine that the strong affection between them is romantic. Jon wouldn't call Arya "little sister" seven times in their brief time together on page if this relationship was supposed be anything but that between a brother and sister.

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On 3/6/2022 at 9:16 AM, GMantis said:

If you ignore the fact that the two are siblings and Arya is nine, I guess you can imagine that the strong affection between them is romantic. 

Oh please, as if children can't have crushes. And yes they believe themselves siblings, but they're not, which may contribute to such odd feelings.

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43 minutes ago, FourRavensBlackOnWhite said:

Oh please, as if children can't have crushes. And yes they believe themselves siblings, but they're not, which may contribute to such odd feelings.

crushes yes , like Arya's crush for Gendry and Sansa's for Waymar , but I don't think Arya-Jon reads particularly as romantic . they seem to share a strong Brother-Sister bond . that doesn't just change when they realize they're not technically siblings. 

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6 hours ago, FourRavensBlackOnWhite said:

Oh please, as if children can't have crushes. And yes they believe themselves siblings, but they're not, which may contribute to such odd feelings.

First, Arya is nine or ten or eleven years old. She hasn't even had her cycles yet. 

Second, Arya and Jon grew up as brother and sister in a family that was supportive (mostly, besides that turd Catelyn and Sansa during the "I'm a little shit" phase). You just have to read him mentioning her or her him to know that there's a low chance of sexual attraction. 

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I like the idea of Arya bonding with but also getting a taste of her own medicine by having to deal with Rickon who'd be even more feral and headstrong that she was in Winterfell back before tragedy hit her family, and her realizing that she must haven't made it easier for her mother and Sansa that they did for her.

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On 3/11/2022 at 2:26 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

I like the idea of Arya bonding with but also getting a taste of her own medicine by having to deal with Rickon who'd be even more feral and headstrong that she was in Winterfell back before tragedy hit her family, and her realizing that she must haven't made it easier for her mother and Sansa that they did for her.

I think there are things most of us did as little kids that we realize were awful as adults :) 

Jokes apart, I don't know if Arya is old enough for dealing patiently with an unruly child, but she might just be the best person to deal with Rickon considering she may understand his mindset the best.

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On 3/12/2022 at 9:31 PM, Apoplexy said:

I think there are things most of us did as little kids that we realize were awful as adults :) 

Jokes apart, I don't know if Arya is old enough for dealing patiently with an unruly child, but she might just be the best person to deal with Rickon considering she may understand his mindset the best.

Sure, though maybe Sansa would also fare better than expected given her experience with "brats" even if these brats were very different from Rickon and more of the spoiled rotten kind than feral one. 

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On 3/14/2022 at 9:37 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Sure, though maybe Sansa would also fare better than expected given her experience with "brats" even if these brats were very different from Rickon and more of the spoiled rotten kind than feral one. 

Sansa could indeed take up a maternal role with Rickon. Her and Arya might need the good cop bad cop routine to deal with Rickon.

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