Corvo the Crow Posted February 11, 2022 Share Posted February 11, 2022 Fire and Blood has shown us there are many warrior women throughout all the regions of 7K but somehow Brienne is considered an oddity over a century later. Why? Obviously this is not something done wrong by GRRM, of course it's not, how can it be? So it must be something about the Westeros society. They aren't progressing but instead in regression perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 She is like a hulking woman, ugly and socially ankward... She would be mistreated even in our times. Buch of men who rely on their "manly" skills of combat, feeling insecure and butthurt about a wench who would embarass them all, it's super plausible and would not change any time soon. Buch of women who have to conform to their places also would totally resent her too. Where i'm from is still like that, don't see how Westeros could be any better, even legends were despised on their day too, the mist of time cloaks everything in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fossoway Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 Fire & Blood is a retell of a story, in which characters are described in a broad way, also subjected to the pen of the maester. What we know of Brienne is told by people who actually saw her, interacted with her, and mostly on her own, so you'll get a more 'organic' point of view, whereas these 'warrior women' of the past are painted depending on: a. their relation with the crown, b. their deeds, c. gossip. Who knows? Maybe, if the War of the Five Kings is retold by some maester of the future, Brienne of Tarth may be described as a 'powerful warrior, a woman who could beat many knights yadda yadda' but of course, leaving out all the insecurities and harsh life Brienne had to get through. Or, for example the obvious lesbian Black Aly, who was also a warrior woman who, in the end, put others interests above her own and married some grave and stern northern lord. Alysanne is often looked as a neat and cool character but, again, who knows? maybe she lead an unhappy life in the north, away from her Frey lover, gave up her more active days of riding horses, hunting and whatever else she liked and took solace on her 4ish daughters. In the end, I don't think there's a cultural regression on course. Since GRRM tells his stories from POVs we can only triangulate what's the deal with singular characters not the broad society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 12, 2022 Author Share Posted February 12, 2022 6 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said: Fire & Blood is a retell of a story, in which characters are described in a broad way, also subjected to the pen of the maester. What we know of Brienne is told by people who actually saw her, interacted with her, and mostly on her own, so you'll get a more 'organic' point of view, whereas these 'warrior women' of the past are painted depending on: a. their relation with the crown, b. their deeds, c. gossip. But there are perhaps a dozen women warriors in that book whereas we only get Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 Fire and Blodd doesn't mention that many "warrior women". Visenya Targaryen, Melony Piper, Jonquil Darque, Aly Blackwood,... and that would be it, I believe. That's four, out of several hundreds of male fighters that are mentioned in the same book. And in many cases, they are mentioned precisely because a fighting woman is something very rare. But what makes Brienne more of an oddity is the fact that she is actually a top notch good fighter. Melony, Jonquil and Aly were brave and daring, but we never heard of them beating any male fighter. Visenya had some skill with the sword, but she wouldn't be know as a warrior if it weren't for Vhagar. But Brienne routinely defeats male fighters, including one of the most highly regarded knights of her generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon2909 Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 15 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said: Fire and Blood has shown us there are many warrior women throughout all the regions of 7K but somehow Brienne is considered an oddity over a century later. Why? Obviously this is not something done wrong by GRRM, of course it's not, how can it be? So it must be something about the Westeros society. They aren't progressing but instead in regression perhaps? Because she's huge, ugly and a warrior who does not want to be married off to some lordling as society expects her to. Yes westeros has had warrior women in the past but its still not accepted within their society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrulj Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 She's breaking social norms and putting men into unenviable positions. If they fight her and win - they beat a woman. Congrats. If they fight her and lose - they lost to a woman. If they refuse to fight her they're scared of a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skahaz mo Kandaq Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 The Targaryens are Valyrians. Their customs and ways are different. Doran is not an actual prince but has the title. Dorne is different. Westeros is a melting pot of many different customs. Brienne happens to be Andal. The Andals have their own views on the role of women. Women in the north fight. The Freefolk women fight. Andals do not. Ironborn women fight. How different might her life be if Brienne had been born into House Mormont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said: How different might her life be if Brienne had been born into House Mormont. Makes you wonder why she or her father didn't try making a match for her into a house like the Mormonts that would accept her for who she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoplexy Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 9 hours ago, Falcon2909 said: Because she's huge, ugly and a warrior who does not want to be married off to some lordling as society expects her to. Yes westeros has had warrior women in the past but its still not accepted within their society. I agree. And women not trying to look conventionally feminine or doing anything that is not conventional is considered an oddity even in present day society. 59 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: Makes you wonder why she or her father didn't try making a match for her into a house like the Mormonts that would accept her for who she is. Probably because bear island isn't in the stormlands and the mormonts aren't a powerful house. And I highly doubt Selwyn cared that much about what would make Brienne happy. He just gave up on the betrothals and sort of left Brienne to her own devices. Which is probably why she wanted to get away from home and live a rather dangerous life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 When you raise an army of 100,000 men to fight and 1 of them is a woman it's still an oddity. The occasional noblewoman picking up a sword won't change conventions or perceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 16 hours ago, Apoplexy said: I agree. And women not trying to look conventionally feminine or doing anything that is not conventional is considered an oddity even in present day society. The same can be said about Meera. 16 hours ago, Apoplexy said: Probably because bear island isn't in the stormlands and the mormonts aren't a powerful house. And I highly doubt Selwyn cared that much about what would make Brienne happy. He just gave up on the betrothals and sort of left Brienne to her own devices. Which is probably why she wanted to get away from home and live a rather dangerous life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoplexy Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Darth Sidious said: The same can be said about Meera. I think Howland Reed was a much more involved father than Selwyn Tarth. And Meera doesn't stick out as much as Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 52 minutes ago, Apoplexy said: I think Howland Reed was a much more involved father than Selwyn Tarth. And Meera doesn't stick out as much as Brienne. that's true. adding to that, crannogmen are different than the rest of Westeros ; maybe women's status in their society is different as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apoplexy Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 15 minutes ago, EggBlue said: that's true. adding to that, crannogmen are different than the rest of Westeros ; maybe women's status in their society is different as well. Yeah, it was Howland Reed who taught Meera to use weapons. It is possible this is the norm for crannogwomen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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