GRRM's Riddle of Steel.

[three-eyed monkey]

While the title is a clear nod to Conan, this post will examine the riddle of steel presented by GRRM, which is a not-so-clear nod to the same source.

In A Song of Ice and Fire the steel in question is dragonsteel.

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"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" The term was new to Jon. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well."

 

Samwell found an old account of the last hero slaying Others with a sword of dragonsteel. Jon immediately offers Valyrian steel as a solution and Sam thought the same, which seems perfectly logical but is clearly misdirection. GRRM is not going to give us the solution to the riddle immediately. Where’s the fun in that?

The last hero had a sword of dragonsteel, and the Others could not stand against it. This clearly parallels another sword that was used to end the Long Night, the Red Sword of Heroes, Lightbringer, forged by Azor Ahai and tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa.

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"Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires. Heat and hammer and fold, heat and hammer and fold, oh, yes, until the sword was done. Yet when he plunged it into water to temper the steel it burst asunder.

Azor Ahai plunged his first sword into water to temper the steel but it burst asunder. Common steel is tempered in water, like the castle-forged longsword of Waymar Royce, whose sword shattered, or burst asunder, against the Others.

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"Being a hero, it was not for him to shrug and go in search of excellent grapes such as these, so again he began. The second time it took him fifty days and fifty nights, and this sword seemed even finer than the first. Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split. Great was his woe and great was his sorrow then, for he knew what he must do.

Azor Ahai plunged his second sword into the heart of a lion. A lion is a universal symbol of kingship. Therefore, the red heart of a lion represents king’s blood.

The problem is, king’s blood is difficult to define. Edric Storm is the son of Robert Baratheon, and Robert was a king, but if Edric qualifies then so does every other Baratheon, true born or not. If the Baratheons qualify, then so do Starks and Greyjoys and Umbers and every other house that ruled at one time or another. Garth Greenhand was thought to be the first king and father of many great houses, all of whom can claim king’s blood. House Mudd once ruled the Riverlands before the Andals came, and so you could say that king’s blood is as common as mud. Even Mance’s son Monster was a potential source of king’s blood until Jon took action to put him beyond Mel’s reach, just in case.

As such, king’s blood sacrifice can be considered, by way of logic, as simply human blood sacrifice, even if characters like Mel often differentiate.

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Kevan Lannister had seen Dragonstone with his own eyes. He doubted very much that Loras Tyrell had searched every inch of that ancient stronghold. The Valyrians had raised it, after all, and all their works stank of sorcery.

All the Valyrians works stank of sorcery and their steel is no different. Valyrian steel clearly requires blood sacrifice.

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Perhaps the Hand had seen Lord Renly's new armor, the green plate with the golden antlers? No other armorer in the city could get that deep a green; he knew the secret of putting color in the steel itself, paint and enamel were the crutches of a journeyman. Or mayhaps the Hand wanted a blade? Tobho had learned to work Valyrian steel at the forges of Qohor as a boy. Only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew.

There are two things to note about Tobho Mott here. First, he knew the secret of putting color in the steel itself, as he did with Renly’s green armor. Second, he knew how to work Valyrian steel, and only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew.

Ned refused Tobho’s offer of a new blade but later Tywin put the armorer to work reforging Ice into two blades, and with some unintended consequences.

Quote

"I confess, these colors were not what I intended, and I do not know that I could duplicate them. Your lord father had asked for the crimson of your House, and it was that color I set out to infuse into the metal. But Valyrian steel is stubborn. These old swords remember, it is said, and they do not change easily. I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again, but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it. And some folds would not take the red at all, as you can see. If my lords of Lannister are displeased, I will of course try again, as many times as you should require, but—"

Despite knowing the secret of putting color in steel, Tobho could not get the crimson red of House Lannister to infuse into the metal. He was unable to make it a red sword, even with the blood sacrifice required to work the steel. We will return to this point later.

Meanwhile, we should ask who was sacrificed to make Tywin’s swords? It was of course the missing Tyrek Lannister, a thirteen-year-old boy who disappeared without trace in the King’s Landing riot. He is the captured lion, whose blood sacrifice split the sword into two. It seems that the people who abducted Tyrek knew that Joffrey was a Lannister, making Tyrek king’s blood in their view. This is not a stretch by any means as Joffrey’s true parentage was suspected by many in King’s Landing, such as the begging brother preaching on the street.

Quote

Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon.

If a begging brother knows then Tyrek’s abductors can know, and thus consider their captive to be king’s blood, which is what Tobho needed to perform the spells to work the steel. It seems that Tywin gave Ice to Tobho to make into two swords, and Tobho, needing some king’s blood to work the required spell, had Tyrek abducted, later serving Tywin his own blood in somewhat of a Frey Pie or Rat Cook move.

Another clue of Tyrek’s involvement in the forging process comes from Tyrion’s observation of the new swords.

Quote

Tyrion put down Joffrey's sword and took up the other. If not twins, the two were at least close cousins.

Tyrek was the son of Tyrion’s late uncle Tygett, making Tyrek and Tyrion first cousins, which is as close a cousin as you can get.

In summary, Azor Ahai’s first blade was common steel, tempered in water as common steel is, but it burst asunder, just like Waymar Royce’s castle-forged steel when tested against the Others.

His second blade was Valyrian steel, tempered with king’s blood as symbolized by the lion, but even the Valyrian steel shattered and split, just as Ice split into two swords when tempered with the blood of Tyrek Lannister.

That brings us to the third blade.

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"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.”

The third blade was not common steel, tempered in water, nor Valyrian steel, tempered in king's blood, but dragonsteel, tempered with the blood of the dragon. Tobho Mott could not get the red into infuse into the steel of Tywin’s swords because the Red Sword of Heroes is dragonsteel and requires not just blood sacrifice but the blood of the dragon before it turns red, and Tyrek Lannister was not a dragon so the color never took.

This suggests Dany will play the role of Nissa Nissa, but also that Nissa Nissa was a dragon queen. Not a Targaryen, nor even a Valyrian for the Freehold had not yet risen, but certainly an ancient ancestor of the Valyrians, such as the line of kings seen by Dany in the House of the Undying.

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Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.

Ice is the smoking sword that needs to be reforged, and then tempered with the blood of the dragon to become the Red Sword of Heroes. A blade of dragonsteel, against which the Others cannot stand. Dawn is simply a red-herring.

Finally, when Azor Ahai thrust his smoking sword through Nissa Nissa’s living heart, her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. This brings us back to Conan and the riddle of the steel. Conan learns that steel has no power without flesh to wield it. The power of steel comes from within the wielder, the person who puts their strength, courage, hate, anger, or whatever is in their heart, into the steel.

GRRM is making the very same point, though his riddle is more complex.

Thanks for reading.

[Mourning Star]

I don't know if I'm sold but nice little theory here! I especially like the "cousin" line about the swords from Tyrion

[TheBlackSwan]

You would need to make a sacrifice to create valyrian steel but once you got that steel, there is no need to make a sacrifice to rework it since it's already there.
Dragonsteel is call like that for the same reason that obsidian is call "dragonglass": it contains fire magic and dragons = fire.

 

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Shaw: Is there a certain reason why they named obsidian "dragonglass" or why you did that?

Martin: Yes, there is a reason.

Shaw: I wasn't sure if you had added something to obsidian for the fantasy.

Martin: I've given it magical characteristics that of course real obsidian doesn't necessarily have. After all, we live in a world that has no magic. My world does have magic, so it's a little bit different.

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm/

 

And we can see in the text that obisidian contains fire magic which is why it's call "dragonglass":

Armen crossed his arms. "Obsidian does not burn."

"Dragonglass," Pate said. "The smallfolk call it dragonglass." Somehow that seemed important."

They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again . . ."

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

 

Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

 

"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

 

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

 

Obsidian contains fire magic which is why it's call "frozen fire" and "dragonglass", put fire magic in steel and you would get "dragonsteel", a steel that would kill the Others just like dragonglass and could stand off against their icy swords.

We've seen the effect of dragonglass on the Other when Sam stabbed him with his obsidian dagger, it melted it. Dragonsteel should have the same effect and we know one sword that do the same thing as dragonglass: Lightbringer.

 

Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."
A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

 

The Last Hero/Azor Ahai went to seek the help of the Children of the Forest and together they made the first valyrian steel sword with a blood sacrifice.

It is said that the sword generate heat in combat and we can easily guess why. In the prologue we've seen that the icy swords of the Others would frost regular steel until it shattered. How do you get rid of the frost on your windshield? You turn on your car and the heat, that's what Lightbringer / Valyrian steel will do when clashing with the Others swords and the text is already teasing us that test in battle:

 

"A pity that the sword that Stannis wields is cold. I'll be curious to see how his Lightbringer behaves in battle. Thank you for the wine. Ghost, with me."
A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

 

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he'd found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.
A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

 

There is no need to look for a new sacrifice, a new Nissa Nissa, the prophecy doesn't mention forging a new sword and that's because Lightbringer was the first dragon/valyrian steel weapon made and since there is a bunch of such weapons around the world, that's why there is no mention of it in the prophecy. Longclaw, Widow's Wail, Oathkeeper are a Lightbringer.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I don't think Tyrek's abduction could have anything to do with Tywin and Ice and a King/Lannister sacrifice.  Tyrek disappears while Tywin is still at war in the Riverlands and Illyn Payne still has possession of ICE.  Tywin doesn't hit King's Landing until the very end of ACOK.  It seems to me it's after the Battle of Blackwater Bay, during Tyrion's infirmity, that is the first chance for Tywin to get the sword ICE from Payne.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 2/13/2022 at 10:03 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

While the title is a clear nod to Conan, this post will examine the riddle of steel presented by GRRM, which is a not-so-clear nod to the same source.

In A Song of Ice and Fire the steel in question is dragonsteel.

Samwell found an old account of the last hero slaying Others with a sword of dragonsteel. Jon immediately offers Valyrian steel as a solution and Sam thought the same, which seems perfectly logical but is clearly misdirection. GRRM is not going to give us the solution to the riddle immediately. Where’s the fun in that?

The last hero had a sword of dragonsteel, and the Others could not stand against it. This clearly parallels another sword that was used to end the Long Night, the Red Sword of Heroes, Lightbringer, forged by Azor Ahai and tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa.

Azor Ahai plunged his first sword into water to temper the steel but it burst asunder. Common steel is tempered in water, like the castle-forged longsword of Waymar Royce, whose sword shattered, or burst asunder, against the Others.

Azor Ahai plunged his second sword into the heart of a lion. A lion is a universal symbol of kingship. Therefore, the red heart of a lion represents king’s blood.

The problem is, king’s blood is difficult to define. Edric Storm is the son of Robert Baratheon, and Robert was a king, but if Edric qualifies then so does every other Baratheon, true born or not. If the Baratheons qualify, then so do Starks and Greyjoys and Umbers and every other house that ruled at one time or another. Garth Greenhand was thought to be the first king and father of many great houses, all of whom can claim king’s blood. House Mudd once ruled the Riverlands before the Andals came, and so you could say that king’s blood is as common as mud. Even Mance’s son Monster was a potential source of king’s blood until Jon took action to put him beyond Mel’s reach, just in case.

As such, king’s blood sacrifice can be considered, by way of logic, as simply human blood sacrifice, even if characters like Mel often differentiate.

All the Valyrians works stank of sorcery and their steel is no different. Valyrian steel clearly requires blood sacrifice.

There are two things to note about Tobho Mott here. First, he knew the secret of putting color in the steel itself, as he did with Renly’s green armor. Second, he knew how to work Valyrian steel, and only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew.

Ned refused Tobho’s offer of a new blade but later Tywin put the armorer to work reforging Ice into two blades, and with some unintended consequences.

Despite knowing the secret of putting color in steel, Tobho could not get the crimson red of House Lannister to infuse into the metal. He was unable to make it a red sword, even with the blood sacrifice required to work the steel. We will return to this point later.

Meanwhile, we should ask who was sacrificed to make Tywin’s swords? It was of course the missing Tyrek Lannister, a thirteen-year-old boy who disappeared without trace in the King’s Landing riot. He is the captured lion, whose blood sacrifice split the sword into two. It seems that the people who abducted Tyrek knew that Joffrey was a Lannister, making Tyrek king’s blood in their view. This is not a stretch by any means as Joffrey’s true parentage was suspected by many in King’s Landing, such as the begging brother preaching on the street.

If a begging brother knows then Tyrek’s abductors can know, and thus consider their captive to be king’s blood, which is what Tobho needed to perform the spells to work the steel. It seems that Tywin gave Ice to Tobho to make into two swords, and Tobho, needing some king’s blood to work the required spell, had Tyrek abducted, later serving Tywin his own blood in somewhat of a Frey Pie or Rat Cook move.

Another clue of Tyrek’s involvement in the forging process comes from Tyrion’s observation of the new swords.

Tyrek was the son of Tyrion’s late uncle Tygett, making Tyrek and Tyrion first cousins, which is as close a cousin as you can get.

In summary, Azor Ahai’s first blade was common steel, tempered in water as common steel is, but it burst asunder, just like Waymar Royce’s castle-forged steel when tested against the Others.

His second blade was Valyrian steel, tempered with king’s blood as symbolized by the lion, but even the Valyrian steel shattered and split, just as Ice split into two swords when tempered with the blood of Tyrek Lannister.

That brings us to the third blade.

The third blade was not common steel, tempered in water, nor Valyrian steel, tempered in king's blood, but dragonsteel, tempered with the blood of the dragon. Tobho Mott could not get the red into infuse into the steel of Tywin’s swords because the Red Sword of Heroes is dragonsteel and requires not just blood sacrifice but the blood of the dragon before it turns red, and Tyrek Lannister was not a dragon so the color never took.

This suggests Dany will play the role of Nissa Nissa, but also that Nissa Nissa was a dragon queen. Not a Targaryen, nor even a Valyrian for the Freehold had not yet risen, but certainly an ancient ancestor of the Valyrians, such as the line of kings seen by Dany in the House of the Undying.

Ice is the smoking sword that needs to be reforged, and then tempered with the blood of the dragon to become the Red Sword of Heroes. A blade of dragonsteel, against which the Others cannot stand. Dawn is simply a red-herring.

Finally, when Azor Ahai thrust his smoking sword through Nissa Nissa’s living heart, her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. This brings us back to Conan and the riddle of the steel. Conan learns that steel has no power without flesh to wield it. The power of steel comes from within the wielder, the person who puts their strength, courage, hate, anger, or whatever is in their heart, into the steel.

GRRM is making the very same point, though his riddle is more complex.

Thanks for reading.

The riddle has been answered when Daenerys Targaryen took the life of her husband and woke the dragons from stone.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Khal Drogo, her beloved husband, was Nissa Nissa. 

The point of the riddle is the sacrifice of the most-loved person.  So if you will insist on Jon being AA, then be prepared for him to be required to stab little Arya in the heart.  Arya is the love of Jon's life. 

[Corvo the Crow]

On 2/14/2022 at 6:03 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

While the title is a clear nod to Conan, this post will examine the riddle of steel presented by GRRM, which is a not-so-clear nod to the same source.

In A Song of Ice and Fire the steel in question is dragonsteel.

Samwell found an old account of the last hero slaying Others with a sword of dragonsteel. Jon immediately offers Valyrian steel as a solution and Sam thought the same, which seems perfectly logical but is clearly misdirection. GRRM is not going to give us the solution to the riddle immediately. Where’s the fun in that?

The last hero had a sword of dragonsteel, and the Others could not stand against it. This clearly parallels another sword that was used to end the Long Night, the Red Sword of Heroes, Lightbringer, forged by Azor Ahai and tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa.

Azor Ahai plunged his first sword into water to temper the steel but it burst asunder. Common steel is tempered in water, like the castle-forged longsword of Waymar Royce, whose sword shattered, or burst asunder, against the Others.

Azor Ahai plunged his second sword into the heart of a lion. A lion is a universal symbol of kingship. Therefore, the red heart of a lion represents king’s blood.

The problem is, king’s blood is difficult to define. Edric Storm is the son of Robert Baratheon, and Robert was a king, but if Edric qualifies then so does every other Baratheon, true born or not. If the Baratheons qualify, then so do Starks and Greyjoys and Umbers and every other house that ruled at one time or another. Garth Greenhand was thought to be the first king and father of many great houses, all of whom can claim king’s blood. House Mudd once ruled the Riverlands before the Andals came, and so you could say that king’s blood is as common as mud. Even Mance’s son Monster was a potential source of king’s blood until Jon took action to put him beyond Mel’s reach, just in case.

As such, king’s blood sacrifice can be considered, by way of logic, as simply human blood sacrifice, even if characters like Mel often differentiate.

All the Valyrians works stank of sorcery and their steel is no different. Valyrian steel clearly requires blood sacrifice.

There are two things to note about Tobho Mott here. First, he knew the secret of putting color in the steel itself, as he did with Renly’s green armor. Second, he knew how to work Valyrian steel, and only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew.

Ned refused Tobho’s offer of a new blade but later Tywin put the armorer to work reforging Ice into two blades, and with some unintended consequences.

Despite knowing the secret of putting color in steel, Tobho could not get the crimson red of House Lannister to infuse into the metal. He was unable to make it a red sword, even with the blood sacrifice required to work the steel. We will return to this point later.

Meanwhile, we should ask who was sacrificed to make Tywin’s swords? It was of course the missing Tyrek Lannister, a thirteen-year-old boy who disappeared without trace in the King’s Landing riot. He is the captured lion, whose blood sacrifice split the sword into two. It seems that the people who abducted Tyrek knew that Joffrey was a Lannister, making Tyrek king’s blood in their view. This is not a stretch by any means as Joffrey’s true parentage was suspected by many in King’s Landing, such as the begging brother preaching on the street.

If a begging brother knows then Tyrek’s abductors can know, and thus consider their captive to be king’s blood, which is what Tobho needed to perform the spells to work the steel. It seems that Tywin gave Ice to Tobho to make into two swords, and Tobho, needing some king’s blood to work the required spell, had Tyrek abducted, later serving Tywin his own blood in somewhat of a Frey Pie or Rat Cook move.

Another clue of Tyrek’s involvement in the forging process comes from Tyrion’s observation of the new swords.

Tyrek was the son of Tyrion’s late uncle Tygett, making Tyrek and Tyrion first cousins, which is as close a cousin as you can get.

In summary, Azor Ahai’s first blade was common steel, tempered in water as common steel is, but it burst asunder, just like Waymar Royce’s castle-forged steel when tested against the Others.

His second blade was Valyrian steel, tempered with king’s blood as symbolized by the lion, but even the Valyrian steel shattered and split, just as Ice split into two swords when tempered with the blood of Tyrek Lannister.

That brings us to the third blade.

The third blade was not common steel, tempered in water, nor Valyrian steel, tempered in king's blood, but dragonsteel, tempered with the blood of the dragon. Tobho Mott could not get the red into infuse into the steel of Tywin’s swords because the Red Sword of Heroes is dragonsteel and requires not just blood sacrifice but the blood of the dragon before it turns red, and Tyrek Lannister was not a dragon so the color never took.

This suggests Dany will play the role of Nissa Nissa, but also that Nissa Nissa was a dragon queen. Not a Targaryen, nor even a Valyrian for the Freehold had not yet risen, but certainly an ancient ancestor of the Valyrians, such as the line of kings seen by Dany in the House of the Undying.

Ice is the smoking sword that needs to be reforged, and then tempered with the blood of the dragon to become the Red Sword of Heroes. A blade of dragonsteel, against which the Others cannot stand. Dawn is simply a red-herring.

Finally, when Azor Ahai thrust his smoking sword through Nissa Nissa’s living heart, her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. This brings us back to Conan and the riddle of the steel. Conan learns that steel has no power without flesh to wield it. The power of steel comes from within the wielder, the person who puts their strength, courage, hate, anger, or whatever is in their heart, into the steel.

GRRM is making the very same point, though his riddle is more complex.

Thanks for reading.

Great theory, until the Dany part. With all the things we know so far(about the world, history etc) if GRRM makes Dany Nissa Nissa “cuz she’s drahgoon’s blud!” real lame. I can see such a thing happening, we’ve similar stuff that happened, “twists” with no logic behind them at all but done to “further the plot” but real lame nonetheless.

 

I believe what’s important in/special about the Nissa Nissa story is that she gave her life willingly and she was so dear to Azor Ahai or that Azor Ahai was dear to her. Willing sacrifice, especially of a loved one or for a loved one is far more powerful than “King’s Blood” if it even has more power than regular one.

 

Remember that Tobho’s sacrifices still work but not as good as intended. Melisandre’s “sacrifices” of Stannis seem to work, even though only small amounts are used there. This may indeed be due to his king’s blood but more important thing to notice is he gives his blood willingly.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

35 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The riddle has been answered when Daenerys Targaryen took the life of her husband and woke the dragons from stone.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Khal Drogo, her beloved husband, was Nissa Nissa. 

The point of the riddle is the sacrifice of the most-loved person.  So if you will insist on Jon being AA, then be prepared for him to be required to stab little Arya in the heart.  Arya is the love of Jon's life. 

No, the point of the theme of sacrifice is that the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice. You cannot sacrifice what you don't own, so no one can truly "sacrifice" the life of another. Dany's is a choice between becoming a dragonqueen that breaks the world of true queen who fixes the world by sacrificing the dragonqueen.

27 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I believe what’s important in/special about the Nissa Nissa story is that she gave her life willingly and she was so dear to Azor Ahai or that Azor Ahai was dear to her. Willing sacrifice, especially of a loved one or for a loved one is far more powerful than “King’s Blood” if it even has more power than regular one.

I agree that Nissa Nissa is the hero of the Azor Ahai tale. She is the one who gave herself willingly to save the world. Azor Ahai captured the "lion", so the lion was not a willing sacrifice. All other forms of sacrifice, including the sacrifice of a loved one, is not true sacrifice.

https://three-eyed-monkey.com/5-true-sacrifice/

49 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Great theory, until the Dany part. With all the things we know so far(about the world, history etc) if GRRM makes Dany Nissa Nissa “cuz she’s drahgoon’s blud!” real lame. I can see such a thing happening, we’ve similar stuff that happened, “twists” with no logic behind them at all but done to “further the plot” but real lame nonetheless.

I don't think it's a twist with no logic behind it, far from it. The theme of sacrifice has been set-up all through the series. And Dany's conflict between a dragon queen who takes what is hers and a true queen who gives herself to her people runs all through her arc.

53 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Remember that Tobho’s sacrifices still work but not as good as intended. Melisandre’s “sacrifices” of Stannis seem to work, even though only small amounts are used there. This may indeed be due to his king’s blood but more important thing to notice is he gives his blood willingly.

Blood sacrifice is a thing, only death can pay for life we are told. Call it king's blood if you wish, but as I have said in the OP I think king's blood is just human blood. However, there is what we might call magical blood. Bloodraven told Bran his ability as a greenseer comes from his blood.

But the point I'm trying to make in this thread is more to do with the dragonsteel than the sacrifice, although it must be true sacrifice of a dragon to temper the blade.

Water = common steel. Lion = Valyrian Steel. True sacrifice of the dragon = dragonsteel. And the streght and courage of the self-sacrificed that goes into the blade gives the steel it's power.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

8 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I don't think Tyrek's abduction could have anything to do with Tywin and Ice and a King/Lannister sacrifice.  Tyrek disappears while Tywin is still at war in the Riverlands and Illyn Payne still has possession of ICE.  Tywin doesn't hit King's Landing until the very end of ACOK.  It seems to me it's after the Battle of Blackwater Bay, during Tyrion's infirmity, that is the first chance for Tywin to get the sword ICE from Payne.  

Yes, there is a gap but Tyrek went missing before the swords were made. If the swords were made before he went missing then we could say for sure Tyrek was not involved. When Tywin went to Tobho to have Ice made into two swords, Tobho needed "king's blood" to work the spells. If Tyrek is out there, hidden but still alive, say abducted in the chaos of the riot by criminals who wanted to ransom him when Lord Tywin arrived, then perhaps Tobho came up with the ransom first.

If we believe that Valyrian steel requires blood sacrifice, then someone had to die to make the new swords. Perhaps it was just a random person picked up in Flea Bottom, but maybe it was someone related to the king.

If we believe there is a reason for Tyrek's disappearance, then perhaps it has a political angle that has yet to play out, or perhaps he just ended up in a bowl of brown, but I think Tywin is unknowingly being served his own blood.

[three-eyed monkey]

10 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

Well this is a good metaphor for Dany's journey. We are told that fire consumes until there is nothing left but ash. Dany is waking the dragon and embracing the fire in her blood. But ultimately Dany must choose between dragonqueen or true queen, and that decision will come in her final plot point, the third fire she must light for love, which is Lightbringer. That way Dany will "burn" when she wakes the dragon but will not be consumed by the fire like Aerys, because ultimately she will choose to preserve the world.

That adds a whole new layer to the meaning of the moniker, The Unburnt.

10 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

You would need to make a sacrifice to create valyrian steel but once you got that steel, there is no need to make a sacrifice to rework it since it's already there.
Dragonsteel is call like that for the same reason that obsidian is call "dragonglass": it contains fire magic and dragons = fire.

As Tobho said to Ned, only a man who knew the spells could take old weapons and forge them anew, so that suggests that blood magic is required to make an old sword into two new ones.

I agree that dragonsteel is called that for the same reason obsidian is called dragonglass. It contains fire magic, as you put it. Dragons = fire. So what is the source of the dragonsteel's fire magic? I'm suggesting it is simply tempered with the blood of the dragon, fire and blood. The self-sacrifice of the dragon, just like Nissa Nissa.

Lightbringer may be used in battle, but it is the self-sacrifice of the dragon which brings the dawn, and only the dawn can end the Long Night. I think this is a common misconception. The heroes don't have to defeat the Others to bring the dawn, they need to bring the dawn to defeat the Others. The Others hate the touch of the sun. But on a thematic level, bringing the dawn means bringing truth back to the realm. That requires true kings and true queens who put their duty before their rights and defend the realm, not fight to control it.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Willing sacrifice, especially of a loved one or for a loved one is far more powerful than “King’s Blood” if it even has more power than regular one.

There's an important point being made in relation to king's blood. There are false kings and true kings, false queens and true queens. False kings sacrifice others for their gain, true kings sacrifice themselves for the gain of others, so if there is true power in king's blood then it comes from the blood of a true king. Therefore, the true power of king's blood can only come from self-sacrifice.

[three-eyed monkey]

12 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."

Frozen fire is a big clue. This should make us think of ice and fire combined, as in the song of ice and fire.

The last hero went in search of the children of the forest to help him regain what the armies of men had lost. Bran remembers how the story ended, the children helped the last hero. Next the last hero returns with a blade of dragonsteel and the Others could not stand against it. But the children are not swordsmiths. They are singers. The secret they shared with the last hero was a song. That song was the song of ice and fire, and the product of the song was a sword of dragonsteel.

Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa tell us how that sword was made, regardless of whether we think Azor Ahai and the last hero were the same person or two different people facing the same crisis thousands of years apart. That's the very same crisis our heroes face now, and there is no reason to think the solution will be any different. Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa together created Lightbringer and saved the day.

There are two notes to the song of ice and fire, one is ice and the other is fire. A harmony is when two notes are struck simultaneously to create a pleasing effect. That pleasing effect is dawn or spring, the anathema to these cold children of the Other, who hate the touch of the sun. So the oxymoron, frozen fire, refers directly to the harmony struck in the song of ice and fire, where Lightbringer - the last hero's dragonsteel blade, was tempered with the blood of the dragon, who sacrificed herself willingly so the realm could survive because only death can pay for life. The dragon's fire must not consume but preserve, which is a quality of ice, hence frozen fire.

Valyrian steel will probably prove more effective than common steel but it still will not defeat the Others. When Azor Ahai tempered his second sword in the heart of a lion, it still shattered and split. Dragonsteel is what is needed, because of how it is made, not what it is made from.

[Corvo the Crow]

5 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I don't think it's a twist with no logic behind it, far from it. The theme of sacrifice has been set-up all through the series. And Dany's conflict between a dragon queen who takes what is hers and a true queen who gives herself to her people runs all through her arc

I meant "twist" as not a plot twist but twists of logic or established lore, world building etc. 

Woohoo supernatural queen of Valyrian descent swooping down on her dragon and baring her breast in Qarth style to be sacrificed with a steel sword that'll be stabbed at that breast is not in line with the history we know of. First Men didn't have iron weapons so Andals who came later and weren't as numerous but had iron weapons were able to overpower them in time. Andals came after the LN so iron weapons weren't available to Westerosi during LN. Valyrian Freehold also date after the LN and Valyrians were simple shepherds for a very long time. So no steel blade during LN and especially no steel blade getting tempered on topless dragon queens. 

[three-eyed monkey]

45 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Woohoo supernatural queen of Valyrian descent swooping down on her dragon and baring her breast in Qarth style to be sacrificed with a steel sword that'll be stabbed at that breast is not in line with the history we know of. First Men didn't have iron weapons so Andals who came later and weren't as numerous but had iron weapons were able to overpower them in time. Andals came after the LN so iron weapons weren't available to Westerosi during LN. Valyrian Freehold also date after the LN and Valyrians were simple shepherds for a very long time. So no steel blade during LN and especially no steel blade getting tempered on topless dragon queens. 

If there was no steel during the Long Night then why did the Last Hero have a dragonsteel blade? What was his broken sword made of? What did Azor Ahai work on, hammering and folding in the manner of working steel, to forge Lightbringer?

I imagine the Qarth custom of a bare breast is a cultural reference to Nissa Nissa. Dragons are older than Valyria, and as an apex predator, Dragons would always have been a symbol if not a source of power even in ancient times. Nissa Nissa could have been a figurative dragon, just as some biblical kings were figurative lions. The timeline and history we are presented with, which is even disputed in-world, is not so reliable. We are talking about events that are often recorded centuries if not millennia after the event. It's clear that a lot has been forgotten and needs to be remembered. One thing we can be more certain of is that the legends and the world-building is relevant to the themes and plot of the story.

Dany is a queen of Valyrian descent. It's questionable how supernatural she is but she did survive the funeral pyre so it seems she is somewhat special. Swooping down on her dragon and bearing her breast is not what I'm implying. Waking the dragon and then swooping in and winning the throne, finding that even her dragons cannot defeat the Others, and ultimately sacrificing all she has won as the dragonqueen to save the realm and become a true queen is more how I see her resolving her arc.

[Corvo the Crow]

9 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

If there was no steel during the Long Night then why did the Last Hero have a dragonsteel blade? What was his broken sword made of? What did Azor Ahai work on, hammering and folding in the manner of working steel, to forge Lightbringer?

Ummm... because they didn't have alphabet back then? What is written is put down to writing thousands of years later. If the legend is told that Last Hero have a sword, it's obviously a bronze sword for his contemporaries, when you retell the tale several thousands year after Andals have established themselvses and iron swords have become common among FM houses as well when you say sword to someone he will think of an iron thing, because in his mind, what else would you make a sword from? When you tell it again a thousand years later with castle forged steel becoming the norm for a household knight when you tell sword to him he will think of steel. So dragonsteel blade may have originally been a copper blade that's forged with dragonglass included and called dragonblade etc and it became dragonsteel in time.

[three-eyed monkey]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ummm... because they didn't have alphabet back then? What is written is put down to writing thousands of years later. If the legend is told that Last Hero have a sword, it's obviously a bronze sword for his contemporaries, when you retell the tale several thousands year after Andals have established themselvses and iron swords have become common among FM houses as well when you say sword to someone he will think of an iron thing, because in his mind, what else would you make a sword from? When you tell it again a thousand years later with castle forged steel becoming the norm for a household knight when you tell sword to him he will think of steel. So dragonsteel blade may have originally been a copper blade that's forged with dragonglass included and called dragonblade etc and it became dragonsteel in time.

If you're saying the last hero's dragonsteel sword was bronze or copper, forged with dragonglass or whatever, then the suggestion is that the children of the forest had metallurgic knowledge that they shared with the last hero, but there is no evidence of that. They fought with dragonglass and weirwood weapons that proved no match for the First Men.

I certainly agree that the legends change as you suggest. We know that there are old tales of knights riding around before the Andals brought knighthood to Westeros too. However, the point is that anyone can be a knight. It does not really matter if you are dubbed or anointed by a septon or stand vigil in the sept. What matters is that you have honor, true honor, which is the quality of knowing and doing the right thing. Protecting the weak and innocent. Standing up for what is right. That's what makes a true knight. While the old heroes might not have been knights in the Andal sense, they were knights in a true sense.

So for the sake of argument let's say the last hero's dragonsteel blade was bronze. Let's say Azor Ahai forged a sword of bronze. It doesn't really matter because it is the self-sacrifice of the dragon, not dragonglass, that is the secret ingredient. Unless you think the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa had nothing to do with it, and in between the second and third forging of Lightbringer, Azor Ahai figured out that he needed to add dragonglass. Meaning, bronze and dragonglass is really all that's needed to end the Long Night and this is a story about characters figuring this out?

No, I think you're taking it too literally. Dragonglass is frozen fire and that's a metaphor for the song of ice and fire. Fire that preserves, not consumes. A dragon who is a true queen, putting her duty ahead of her rights, putting saving the kingdom ahead of her perceived right the throne. 

[Corvo the Crow]

25 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

If you're saying the last hero's dragonsteel sword was bronze or copper, forged with dragonglass or whatever, then the suggestion is that the children of the forest had metallurgic knowledge that they shared with the last hero, but there is no evidence of that. They fought with dragonglass and weirwood weapons that proved no match for the First Men.

No need to. Knowledge of obsidian's power is enough so the children would give obsidian and humans would forge these obsidian-bronze blades. Well it need not to be a metal blade at all, it could just be obsidian alone. We learn obsidian was called "frozenfire" by Valyrians those it look at all like fire? So "dragonsteel" could just be another name used for it and since Westerosi call it dragonglass, it's quite possible. Remember also that Children were giving obsidian weapons to the Watch.

 

25 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So for the sake of argument let's say the last hero's dragonsteel blade was bronze. Let's say Azor Ahai forged a sword of bronze. It doesn't really matter because it is the self-sacrifice of the dragon, not dragonglass, that is the secret ingredient. Unless you think the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa had nothing to do with it, and in between the second and third forging of Lightbringer, Azor Ahai figured out that he needed to add dragonglass. Meaning, bronze and dragonglass is really all that's needed to end the Long Night and this is a story about characters figuring this out?

I agree on the sacrifice being important, perhaps it was the thing that allowed combining obsidian and bronze, perhaps it was only important with it's magical grants.

 

25 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

A dragon who is a true queen, putting her duty ahead of her rights, putting saving the kingdom ahead of her perceived right the throne. 

We have no mention of dragons in these legends though so I'll pass the dragon queens. Presence of Dragons in mainland Westeros goes only as far back as William the Bastard Aegon the Conqueror's invasion and yet North has Sea Dragon Point and there are tales of "sea dragons" so a dragon was not a concept that is unknown to Westerosi yet we learn nothing of the sort in neither the Last Hero legend nor the Essosi version that was quilled down only 5000 years ago and most likely came from Westeros.

In our own world Gilgamesh was written down some 4-5 milennia ago, I can not emphasize enough the written down part, and yet within a couple of milennia after it's written down, it was twisted and changed enough to give rise to other tellings. The story of the LH was only passed through oral tradition for thousands of years, imagine how much it will change with each telling, especially when it passes through different cultures, cultures other than that of the First Man. Each culture would add and remove things to make it a tale of their own, just like tales of sumerian was made other peoples.

[Mourning Star]

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

The Last Hero/Azor Ahai went to seek the help of the Children of the Forest and together they made the first valyrian steel sword with a blood sacrifice.

I would contend that this is almost certainly false, for a number of reasons.

First, from the meta perspective of a reader, there is no reason to write like this:

 "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."
"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"

Unless it isn't Valyrian Steel.

Second, from a semantic perspective, Valyria had not even been founded when the Long Night occurred. Even if it was the same thing as "Valyrian Steel" (which I highly doubt), it wouldn't be literally Valyrian.

Third, House Stark only got a Valyrian Sword much later:

It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

Fourth, the Last Hero sought out the Children of the Forest to try and win back what the armies of men had lost.

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.

Not only does this imply a nonviolent solution, there is no reason to think the Children could forge iron, let alone steel, let alone magic steel. (Although I would contend that the same cannot be said for the Starks themselves).

And finally, there is another magic sword in play that is ancient and not made of Valyrian Steel, Dawn.

[Mourning Star]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We have no mention of dragons in these legends though so I'll pass the dragon queens. Presence of Dragons in mainland Westeros goes only as far back as William the Bastard Aegon the Conqueror's invasion and yet North has Sea Dragon Point and there are tales of "sea dragons" so a dragon was not a concept that is unknown to Westerosi yet we learn nothing of the sort in neither the Last Hero legend nor the Essosi version that was quilled down only 5000 years ago and most likely came from Westeros.

This is untrue. There were definitively Dragons in Westeros long before Targaryens...

But there were dragons in Westeros, once, long before the Targaryens came, as our own legends and histories tell us.

And we even have a specific example:

How did Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slay the dragon Urrax?

Spoiler

(Spoiler: The "Knights of the Kingsguard", like Serwyn, riding around Westeros long before their were knights, are likely tales of "white swords", Others, from before the Wall was built. Serwyn's "mirror armor, and Symeon's "star eyes", are descriptions of the White Walker's reflective camouflage and blue eyes. The Others are what killed the dragons in Westeros, and why Valyria feared to conquer Westeros.)

 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

This is untrue. There were definitively Dragons in Westeros long before Targaryens...

But there were dragons in Westeros, once, long before the Targaryens came, as our own legends and histories tell us.

And we even have a specific example:

How did Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slay the dragon Urrax?

Read again

 

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

and yet North has Sea Dragon Point and there are tales of "sea dragons" so a dragon was not a concept that is unknown to Westerosi

My point is dragons were known to Westerosi but there is no dragon in the LH story, therefore a dragon queen being irrelevant to the legend. 

[Corvo the Crow]

6 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

(Spoiler: The "Knights of the Kingsguard", like Serwyn, riding around Westeros long before their were knights, are likely tales of "white swords", Others, from before the Wall was built. Serwyn's "mirror armor, and Symeon's "star eyes", are descriptions of the White Walker's reflective camouflage and blue eyes. The Others are what killed the dragons in Westeros, and why Valyria feared to conquer Westeros.)

 

NOOOOOOO! I CAN NOT stress this enough, Valyria did not even exist at that time. I agree Serwyn's armor and Simeon's eyes are quite likely tales of the others but Valyria did not exist at the time. Our timeline maybe skewes with it's 10000 years and 8000 years, it may be much closer than that but we are explicitly told of records from the Ghis and Valyria flourishing only after the LN.