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GRRM's Riddle of Steel.


three-eyed monkey

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3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

I would contend that this is almost certainly false, for a number of reasons.

First, from the meta perspective of a reader, there is no reason to write like this:

 "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."
"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"

Unless it isn't Valyrian Steel.

If it's not Valyrian steel, then Jon will die when facing an Other because Longclaw will suffer the same fate as Waywar's sword in AGoT prologue. Jon will die twice?
Also the Others represents Ice, they have a control over ice magic and they have swords made of ice magic.
Who represent Fire? Who have a control over Fire magic, the dragons? Who would have swords that contains fire magic?

« The things that are going north of the wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are, of course, the ice and fire of the title. »
https://youtu.be/GaPZGDlm2F4?t=293
I did consider in the very early stages not having the dragons in there. I wanted the Targaryen’s symbol to be the dragons, but I did play with the notion that maybe it was like a psionic power, that it was pyrokinesis — that they could conjure up flames with their minds.
https://goodqueenaly.tumblr.com/post/172280524783/i-saw-your-debate-on-prophecies-and-i-think

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Second, from a semantic perspective, Valyria had not even been founded when the Long Night occurred. Even if it was the same thing as "Valyrian Steel" (which I highly doubt), it wouldn't be literally Valyrian.

Valyria was around during the Long Night and dragonsteel could have get named Valyriansteel after the expansion of the Free Hold.

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Third, House Stark only got a Valyrian Sword much later:

It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

Ice doesn't have to be the Last Hero dragonsteel sword / Lightbringer.

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Fourth, the Last Hero sought out the Children of the Forest to try and win back what the armies of men had lost.

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.

Not only does this imply a nonviolent solution, there is no reason to think the Children could forge iron, let alone steel, let alone magic steel. (Although I would contend that the same cannot be said for the Starks themselves).

A non violent solution when it ended with the Battle of the Dawn? D:
The Children didn't know how to forge steel but men did, thus the Last Hero/Azor Ahai involvement.

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

And finally, there is another magic sword in play that is ancient and not made of Valyrian Steel, Dawn.

And how Dawn, the excalibur cliché, will come into play? B+A=J?

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1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

NOOOOOOO! I CAN NOT stress this enough, Valyria did not even exist at that time. I agree Serwyn's armor and Simeon's eyes are quite likely tales of the others but Valyria did not exist at the time. Our timeline maybe skewes with it's 10000 years and 8000 years, it may be much closer than that but we are explicitly told of records from the Ghis and Valyria flourishing only after the LN.

Did you mean to respond to me? Did you read my comments above? I very literally said that Valyria did not exist during the time of the Last Hero... never suggested otherwise. This doesn't mean dragons and dragon riders didn't exist.

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8 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Did you mean to respond to me? Did you read my comments above? I very literally said that Valyria did not exist during the time of the Last Hero... never suggested otherwise. This doesn't mean dragons and dragon riders didn't exist.

You wrote "why Valyrians feared to conquer Westeros" to me. I haven't read all the posts in the thread.

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54 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

If it's not Valyrian steel, then Jon will die when facing an Other because Longclaw will suffer the same fate as Waywar's sword in AGoT prologue. Jon will die twice?

Why?

Why can't Valyrian Steel also stand up to the Other's blades, I do not understand how you made this leap?

Dragonsteel doesn't have to be the same as Valyrian Steel for both to be effective.

54 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:


Also the Others represents Ice, they have a control over ice magic and they have swords made of ice magic.
Who represent Fire? Who have a control over Fire magic, the dragons? Who would have swords that contains fire magic?

« The things that are going north of the wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are, of course, the ice and fire of the title. »
https://youtu.be/GaPZGDlm2F4?t=293
I did consider in the very early stages not having the dragons in there. I wanted the Targaryen’s symbol to be the dragons, but I did play with the notion that maybe it was like a psionic power, that it was pyrokinesis — that they could conjure up flames with their minds.
https://goodqueenaly.tumblr.com/post/172280524783/i-saw-your-debate-on-prophecies-and-i-think

How is this relevant?

54 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Valyria was around during the Long Night and dragonsteel could have get named Valyriansteel after the expansion of the Free Hold.

I do not think there is any evidence that Valyria had been founded at the time of the long night.

54 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Ice doesn't have to be the Last Hero dragonsteel sword / Lightbringer.

But it fits.

54 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

A non violent solution when it ended with the Battle of the Dawn? D:

It almost certainly didn't end with the Battle for the "Dawn" (what the armies of men had lost), and the likely moral of the entire story is that you don't solve violence with more violence. The morning star is the planet Venus, Love.

54 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

The Children didn't know how to forge steel but men did, thus the Last Hero/Azor Ahai involvement.

And how Dawn, the excalibur cliché, will come into play? B+A=J?

Obviously I'm doing some speculating here, but...

The First Men explicitly did not know how to forge iron.

Starks, Targaryens, Daynes, and likely Hightowers likely share a common proto-Valyrian heritage. Which would explain the iron swords in the crypts of the Starks, the gargoyles on their old keep, and the round structures at Winterfell, Oldtown, Stormsend, and likely the Palestone Sword, which all predate the Andal invasion. As opposed to say, Highgarden, where the oldest structures are square. They also seemed to be seafarers where First Men where not.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Valyria was founded by men coming from the west, rather than the east, after the dragons were all killed or driven from Westeros. 

Valyrian Steel is likely a bloody imitation of Dawn, which was forged from the "heart of a fallen star".

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ummm... because they didn't have alphabet back then? What is written is put down to writing thousands of years later. If the legend is told that Last Hero have a sword, it's obviously a bronze sword for his contemporaries, when you retell the tale several thousands year after Andals have established themselvses and iron swords have become common among FM houses as well when you say sword to someone he will think of an iron thing, because in his mind, what else would you make a sword from? When you tell it again a thousand years later with castle forged steel becoming the norm for a household knight when you tell sword to him he will think of steel. So dragonsteel blade may have originally been a copper blade that's forged with dragonglass included and called dragonblade etc and it became dragonsteel in time.

Another possibility is that the Andals were being too literal when they translated the FM runes.  Whatever tale was told in the runes may have been referring to a "sword" in a symbolic sense as opposed to a literal one.  Much like Arthur Dayne is the "sword of the morning".  

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4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

You wrote "why Valyrians feared to conquer Westeros" to me. I haven't read all the posts in the thread.

Yes, because the dragons were all killed in Westeros.

Valyrians could be aware of events from before the founding of Valyria. Much like the Seven Kingdoms could hear stories of Ashai even though Ashai fell before the Seven Kingdoms were founded.

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5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Another possibility is that the Andals were being too literal when they translated the FM runes.  Whatever tale was told in the runes may have been referring to a "sword" in a symbolic sense as opposed to a literal one.  Much like Arthur Dayne is the "sword of the morning".  

This line of thinking begs the question why First Men would have a rune for "steel" if they didn't have ironworking.

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16 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

This line of thinking begs the question why First Men would have a rune for "steel" if they didn't have ironworking.

For the same reason.  The Andals mistranslated the runes.  The First Men probably didn’t have a rune for steel.  But the Andals thought they were translating a story involving a physical weapon so they allowed their own preconceived notions to lead them down the wrong translation.

As an aside, the First Men did work iron at some point prior to the Andals arrival, they just weren’t to the point of transforming iron into steel.

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1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We have no mention of dragons in these legends though so I'll pass the dragon queens.

The Grey King and his slaying of the sea-dragon Nagga. I consider this another retelling of the Long Night legend.

Serwyn of the Mirror-Shield, a tale from the age of heroes, slew the dragon Urrax. How? By showing it it's own reflection. What am I saying must happen for Dany to go from dragon queen to true queen? She must reflect on what she has become. If I look back I'm lost. Interesting question here is, was Urrax a literal dragon or a figurative dragon?

Then there is the line of kings Dany saw in the House of the Undying, with eyes of opal and jade, etc. This seems to connect back to the great empire of the dawn. So what relevance do they have to Dany? Everything in her visions had relevance to her. The obvious answer is that they are her forefathers and that dragons have always ruled the earth. That's the chain she must break.

 

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24 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

For the same reason.  The Andals are mistranslating the runes.  The First Men probably didn’t have a rune for steel.  But the Andals think they’re translating a story involving a physical weapon so they’re allowing their own preconceived notions to lead them down the wrong translation.

It's an interesting line of thought, we do have the translation issue raised by Aemon.

The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.

And the difference between glyphs and runes is basically semantic. 

I'm all for questioning the old stories. But in this case, the existence of Dawn provides another possibility which seems more likely to me.

Edit: Also, the appearance of a sword in Nan's telling of the Last Hero lends credit to the idea that the Last Hero fought the Others with a sword. The crown of the Kings of Winter even had iron swords on it (which again, makes no sense if they were First Men who didn't have ironworking, but makes a lot of sense when you consider that after the founding of WInterfell they proceed to conquer the entire North).

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5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Why?

Why can't Valyrian Steel also stand up to the Other's blades, I do not understand how you made this leap?

Dragonsteel doesn't have to be the same as Valyrian Steel for both to be effective.

What would be the point of dragonsteel if it does the same thing as Valyriansteel but it's not Valyriansteel?
We know that dragonsteel / Lightbringer was made with a blood sacrifice. Qohorik smiths are using blood sacrifice in their efforts to replicate VS. There aren't a lot of people connected to fire magic, blood sacrifice who happened to have some magical steel.
Also february 28, 2002:

I was wondering if Valyrian steel could stand against the swords of the Others and also if they could kill Others.
The Night's Watch would like to know as well.
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1201

When does the Night's Watch ever discuss this?  3 years later in A Feast For Crows:

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"
"That was my first thought as well."
A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

 

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

How is this relevant?

It's the thematic of the story, Ice vs Fire. The Others are the ice and the Dragonlords are the fire of the title.
If one has magical icy sword, the other would have magical firy swords and the Dragonlords have Valyriansteel. It can't just be a coincidence.

 

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Thus the semantics..

Yeah and Valyriansteel can be dragonsteel even if it doesn't have the same name. Dragonsteel was the named used by the tales from the common folk of Westeros just like they call obsidian "dragonglass".

 

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

But it fits.

It doesn't, the text you posted says that Ice was forged 400 years ago, the Long Night happened 5.000 yers ago.

 

5 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

It almost certainly didn't end with the battle for the Dawn, and the likely moral of the entire story is that you don't solve violence with more violence. The morning star is the planet Venus, Love.

Venus? Love? D:
When an army of dead people is threatening humanity, defending yourself isn't what I would call bringing more violence.
 

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29 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The Grey King and his slaying of the sea-dragon Nagga. I consider this another retelling of the Long Night legend.

Serwyn of the Mirror-Shield, a tale from the age of heroes, slew the dragon Urrax. How? By showing it it's own reflection. What am I saying must happen for Dany to go from dragon queen to true queen? She must reflect on what she has become. If I look back I'm lost. Interesting question here is, was Urrax a literal dragon or a figurative dragon?

Then there is the line of kings Dany saw in the House of the Undying, with eyes of opal and jade, etc. This seems to connect back to the great empire of the dawn. So what relevance do they have to Dany? Everything in her visions had relevance to her. The obvious answer is that they are her forefathers and that dragons have always ruled the earth. That's the chain she must break.

 

Urrax the Dragon may very well be Uther Pendragon or Urras Greyiron.

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53 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

What would be the point of dragonsteel if it does the same thing as Valyriansteel but it's not Valyriansteel?

Which is part of why I think "dragonsteel" is referring to Dawn.

53 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

We know that dragonsteel / Lightbringer was made with a blood sacrifice.

While we may assume that the Last Hero was Azor Ahai, we don't know it. But if this is also the Blood Betrayal then Dawn being forged from a fallen star fits with it being the "bloodstone" of the Bloodstone Emperor as well.

53 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Qohorik smiths are using blood sacrifice in their efforts to replicate VS. There aren't a lot of people connected to fire magic, blood sacrifice who happened to have some magical steel.
Also february 28, 2002:

I was wondering if Valyrian steel could stand against the swords of the Others and also if they could kill Others.
The Night's Watch would like to know as well.
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1201

When does the Night's Watch ever discuss this?  3 years later in A Feast For Crows:

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"
"That was my first thought as well."
A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Valyrian Steel standing up to the Others doesn't mean it's Dragonsteel, any more than Obsidian is because it can kill an Other.

Again, this is an absurdly odd way to write this scene if we are supposed to believe Valyrian Steel is Dragonsteel.

53 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

It's the thematic of the story, Ice vs Fire. The Others are the ice and the Dragonlords are the fire of the title.
If one has magical icy sword, the other would have magical firy swords and the Dragonlords have Valyriansteel. It can't just be a coincidence.

The title is a reference to Frost's "Fire and Ice", which in turn is a reference to Dante's Divine Comedy.

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

In the Frost Poem, fire and ice represent desire and hate, and ways the world might end. Both are bad for humanity.

These vices, and the nine lines of the poem, reflect Dante's Inferno, where the deepest circle is frozen over.

We can also see that ASoIaF begins in a dark wood where the easy way was lost, much like Dante.

The last line of the Inferno: Where we came forth, and once more saw the stars.

And the last line of Paradiso: the Love that moves the sun and the other stars.

Reinforce my contention that the conclusion is not the victory of one extreme over another, but rather peace through "love", symbolized by the stars.

The Sword of the Morning, and the Sword of the Evening, both wield Dawn. The Morning Star and the Evening Star are both the planet Venus, Love, the light that brings the dawn, stars in a daylight sky, etc etc

The same sword, what matters is the wielder and the choices they make. (Another major theme of the story, humanity is the main subject, not dragons and ice daemons. "The heart in conflict with itself", if you will.)

This symbolism is woven into the story so much it is difficult to cover and credit succinctly.

53 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Yeah and Valyriansteel can be dragonsteel even if it doesn't have the same name. Dragonsteel was the named used by the tales from the common folk of Westeros just like they call obsidian "dragonglass".

It's not impossible (besides Valyria not having been founded yet) but Dawn provides a much better explanation.

53 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

It doesn't, the text you posted says that Ice was forged 400 years ago, the Long Night happened 5.000 yers ago.

Because I'm suggesting that "Dawn" was both the original "Ice" and Azor Ahai's "Red Sword of Heroes".

And now, The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.

Remember Ice and Fire are the vices hate and desire. I'm suggesting the blade is affected by the wielder.

Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot.

53 minutes ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Venus? Love? D:
When an army of dead people is threatening humanity, defending yourself isn't what I would call bringing more violence.
 

Call it what you want, dragons and Others both are apocalyptical forces, like in Frost's poem from which the series gets its name.

"So many years, so many wars, so many kings … you'd think someone would have made a peace."

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On 2/15/2022 at 9:16 PM, Mourning Star said:

Which is part of why I think "dragonsteel" is referring to Dawn.

But there is no human sacrifice involves in the making of Dawn. The metal used to forged it already had magical properties:

« If I could wield only one sword? I don't think it would be any of the Targaryens swords, it would be Dawn. [...] Which is made from the metal of a fallen star and who knows what magical properties fallen stars bring to earth. »
https://youtu.be/ysRorXaGbG0?t=3981

Whereas Lightbringer / dragonsteel / Valyriansteel is made with magic:

I belive I'm right in saying it differs from say Mithril (from LOTR) in that it is not a material which in itself bears advantageous properties but rather ordinary steel which has been subjected to a process (the physical manipulation of the steel combined with spells) which embues it with the desired elements.

Yes, that is correct.
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Process_of_Making_Valyrian_Steel

On 2/15/2022 at 9:16 PM, Mourning Star said:

While we may assume that the Last Hero was Azor Ahai, we don't know it.

I already show that Lightbringer = Dragonsteel and we can see how the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are the same character by looking at their legends.
Their story is the same: a guy ended the Long Night with his magical sword.
And if we look at the different parts of their legends that we have (2 for each), we notice that they are complementary.

Book 1: The Hero is looking for the Children to help them vanquish the Others.

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.
AGoT - Bran IV

Book 2: They forge a magical sword with a blood sacrifice.

She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.
ACoK - Davos I

Book 4: The Hero kills demons with his magical sword.

 I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel.
 AFFC - Samwell I

Book 5: Description of what his magical sword does.

Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.
ADwD - Jon III

2 legends about the Last Hero and 2 legends about Azor Ahai. If we wonder how did he get his dragonsteel sword or what does his dragonsteel sword do? The answer are within the Azor Ahai parts. Weird coïcidence...

 

On 2/15/2022 at 9:16 PM, Mourning Star said:

I don't know what you are trying to say here...

Valyrian Steel standing up to the Others doesn't mean it's Dragonsteel, any more than Obsidian is because it can kill an Other.

Obsidian is a volcanic rock, it's not steel.

On 2/15/2022 at 9:16 PM, Mourning Star said:

The title is a reference to Frost's "Fire and Ice", which in turn is a reference to Dante's Divine Comedy.

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

In the Frost Poem, fire and ice represent desire and hate, and ways the world might end. Both are bad for humanity.

Not sure what you are trying to say with the Dante quote but yeah for Frost poem, it also fits with what I'm saying.

Martin said Ice = the Others and Fire = the Dragonlords.
The Others have a control on ice magic, they live in the Land of Always Winter, they have icy magical swords and they are connected to winter.

The Dragonlords have a control on fire magic (the dragons), they lived in the land of Long Summers, they have a magical steel and they are connected to summer.
So since the Dragonlords are the Fire, we can safely assume their their magical steel contains fire magic, therefore valyriansteel = Lightbringer = Dragonsteel.

It also explained the long seasons. Martin said the explanation is magical and we know that there are elemental magical forces like ice and fire magic so it's not weird to think that the seasons would be tie to those forces.

There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war.
A Storm of Swords - Davos III

The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler.
The Hedge Knight

If the Others wins, then it will be an endless winter but if the dragonlords wins, it will be an endless summer:

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"
A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

The Others and the Dragonlords are both dangerous for the world and the only way to bring back the world to normal is by getting rid of the song of Ice, the Others and the song of Fire, the Dragonlords. That won't be happen in peace.

Quote

It's not impossible (besides Valyria not having been founded yet) but Dawn provides a much better explanation.

Valyria did exist during the Long Night, people seem to be unaware of this information.

“10,000 years” is mentioned in the novels. But you also have places where maesters say, “No, no, it wasn’t 10,000, it was 5,000.” Again, I’m trying to reflect real-life things that a lot of high fantasy doesn’t reflect. In the Bible, it has people living for hundreds of years and then people added up how long each lived and used that to figure out when events took place. Really? I don’t think so. Now we’re getting more realistic dating now from carbon dating and archeology. But Westeros doesn’t have that. They’re still in the stage of “my grandfather told me and his grandfather told him.” So I think it’s closer to 5,000 years. But you’re right. Westeros is a very different place. There’s no King’s Landing. There’s no Iron Throne. There are no Targaryens — Valyria has hardly begun to rise yet with its dragons and the great empire that it built.
https://ew.com/author-interviews/2018/11/19/george-rr-martin-interview/

So they did exist during the Long Night and from what we know, they still were "weak" just after the Long Night but they had dragons. They fought Old Ghis 5 times, and won fives times. The last war took place 5.000 bc.
If we look on how they got dragons we can see an interesting legend:

In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai'i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.
Yet if men in the Shadow had tamed dragons first, why did they not conquer as the Valyrians did?
The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria

And a great explanation by Alabastur is that those people were the Children of the Forest, the Singers, those who sing the songs of earth.
They are refered as an eldery race, making them ancient.
Bran and Meera have to give them names because human can't pronounce their and they don't alway use names, making them nameless.
They know the how to craft obsidian, access dreams and have visions which is what a glass candle do.
They also know how to control animals, usefull to get dragons.
Why did they not conquer with the dragons? The Children arent conquerors, they aren't great warriors, they "sing sad songs".

It fits we everything we've seen. The Singers and the Last Hero had to make a new song to counter the song of Ice, the Others, to bring back the day, causing long summers:

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.
The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night
 

The Children taught the Valyrians how to tame the dragons and how to make dragonsteel / Valyriansteel to counter their first creation, the Others.
It fits with the timeline: toward the end of the Long Night, around ~5.000 bc, the Valyrians got the dragons, the Long Night ends and, just after, Old Ghis attack Valyria to get an hand on the dragons. The Valyrian victory, 5.000 bc, launched the Freehold expansion.

Martin said he likes title with multiples meaning.
We have the Singers, their spells are  call songs, they made the Others, the song of Ice, and the Dragonlords, the song of Fire. Those forces are opposite but both destructive and are responsible for the irregularity of the seasons.

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The concept of the "true sword" is brought up in Dunk&Egg in relation to Blackfyre being the sword of the true king. The idea is that the true king, from a Targaryen perspective, bears the sword of Aegon the Conqueror. Some feel the sword represents the kingdom, so when one king bestows the sword upon a successor, he bestows the kingdom with it. Jon Connington currently has the sword, which will be revealed to help bolster Young Griff's claim as Aegon VI, no doubt.

However, we know that Aegon is not the true king, he's just the mummer's dragon, a false king, and as such Blackfyre is not the true sword.

On the other hand we have Dawn, white, pale as milkglass. The sword of the morning, can only be held by a worthy man, etc. Sounds exactly like the sword needed to end the Long Night. Seems obvious, in fact a little too obvious, because it's a red herring.

So Blackfyre or white Dawn, which one is the sword of the true king? It's a false dilemma because the truth is not always black and white, the truth is often somewhere in between. Grey, like the smoking blade of Ice.

When we look at the symbolism of Ice and Fire, we are told that fire consumes and the cold preserves. Lies consume and the truth preserves. The realm is being consumed by false kings and the true king is needed to preserve the realm. False kings represent the lie, while the true king represents the truth. Fire represents the false kings, while Ice represents the true king.

All the false kings have their own Lightbringers, to help their ambitions towards the throne. Stannis has his glamoured sword. Aegon will have Blackfyre. Dany has her dragons. They're all promising a new dawn, justice for the realm, etc., but the dawn of a false king is a false dawn. In contrast, the true king has his Lightbringer to defend the realm.

The true dawn must be brought by the true king, using the true sword, and the true heart of Nissa Nissa, who gave herself in true sacrifice to preserve the realm from the true enemy. Fire consumes, cold preserves. Ice is the true sword. The King of Winter is the true king. The heart of winter is a true heart. Frozen Fire is a dragon who turns from the lies consuming the realm to the truth needed to preserve the realm. These are the key parts of the song of ice and fire, the song the children taught the last hero which enabled him to return with a blade of dragonsteel and bring the dawn.

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Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of the West..

 

 

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As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gemstones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinking horns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls … all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt.

This is taken to be Waymar's sword that was broken.

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"Wind. Trees rustling. A wolf. Which sound is it that unmans you so, Gared?" When Gared did not answer, Royce slid gracefully from his saddle. He tied the destrier securely to a low-hanging limb, well away from the other horses, and drew his longsword from its sheath. Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel. It was a splendid weapon, castle-forged, and new-made from the look of it. Will doubted it had ever been swung in anger.

...

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

The sword that moonlight shines cold upon.

We also have the Sword that shines red, Stannis' lightbringer.

 

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The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

 

Two times the sword of Azor Ahai was broken. Stannis' Lightbringer is taken to be the false thing so it will break facing the Others as well(no, I don't believe Ramsay defeated him) Who knows perhaps these two would be forged together into one.

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18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

But there is no human sacrifice involves in the making of Dawn. The metal used to forged it already had magical properties:

« If I could wield only one sword? I don't think it would be any of the Targaryens swords, it would be Dawn. [...] Which is made from the metal of a fallen star and who knows what magical properties fallen stars bring to earth. »
https://youtu.be/ysRorXaGbG0?t=3981

Whereas Lightbringer / dragonsteel / Valyriansteel is made with magic:

I belive I'm right in saying it differs from say Mithril (from LOTR) in that it is not a material which in itself bears advantageous properties but rather ordinary steel which has been subjected to a process (the physical manipulation of the steel combined with spells) which embues it with the desired elements.

Yes, that is correct.
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Process_of_Making_Valyrian_Steel

I don't disagree that the material of Dawn is special.

But that doesn't mean magic (or human sacrifice) wasn't used in it's forging.

I think Valyrian Steel is an attempt to recreate that first magic sword.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

I already show that Lightbringer = Dragonsteel and we can see how the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are the same character by looking at their legends.

Not certain but seems possible, however...

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Their story is the same: a guy ended the Long Night with his magical sword.
And if we look at the different parts of their legends that we have (2 for each), we notice that they are complementary.

this is different from the Last Hero. The last Hero's sword broke, and he sought out the Children in the hopes that their magic could win what the armies of men had lost.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Book 1: The Hero is looking for the Children to help them vanquish the Others.

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.
AGoT - Bran IV

 

No, at this point the armies of men had already lost.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Book 2: They forge a magical sword with a blood sacrifice.

She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.
ACoK - Davos I

There is no evidence of the Children being smiths.

If anything I would argue it seems the Azor Ahai forging story likely caused the Long Night, this was probably the Blood Betrayal.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Book 4: The Hero kills demons with his magical sword.

 I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel.
 AFFC - Samwell I

We also have a tale of dragonslaying 

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Book 5: Description of what his magical sword does.

Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.
ADwD - Jon III

You will notice that this is not what happened to the only Other we have seen killed.

Could it just be more extreme because magic red sword burns hotter than little obsidian knife? Possibly, but it could also be a dragon being killed here, unclear.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

2 legends about the Last Hero and 2 legends about Azor Ahai. If we wonder how did he get his dragonsteel sword or what does his dragonsteel sword do? The answer are within the Azor Ahai parts. Weird coïcidence...

Maybe. I think the issue is the order of events though.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Obsidian is a volcanic rock, it's not steel.

Neither the First Men Nor the Children of the forest can make steel.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Not sure what you are trying to say with the Dante quote but yeah for Frost poem, it also fits with what I'm saying.

Martin said Ice = the Others and Fire = the Dragonlords.
The Others have a control on ice magic, they live in the Land of Always Winter, they have icy magical swords and they are connected to winter.

The Dragonlords have a control on fire magic (the dragons), they lived in the land of Long Summers, they have a magical steel and they are connected to summer.
So since the Dragonlords are the Fire, we can safely assume their their magical steel contains fire magic, therefore valyriansteel = Lightbringer = Dragonsteel.

I guess I wasn't clear.

They are both potentially destructive extremes, but are also parts of human nature.

War and hate and violence and power mongering do not bring about peace.

I can guarantee you the endgame solution is not for a hero to just kill the magic baddie.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

It also explained the long seasons. Martin said the explanation is magical and we know that there are elemental magical forces like ice and fire magic so it's not weird to think that the seasons would be tie to those forces.

There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good." She took a step toward him. "Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war.
A Storm of Swords - Davos III

The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler.
The Hedge Knight

 

First, Melisandre is pretty obviously wrong here right? Her throwing gender into the mix should make that obvious if nothing else does.

Her black and white world view is pretty objectively horrible, and we are not supposed to agree with what she is saying. The root of the trouble is the war she is talking about, and encouraging.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

 

If the Others wins, then it will be an endless winter but if the dragonlords wins, it will be an endless summer:

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"
A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

The Others and the Dragonlords are both dangerous for the world and the only way to bring back the world to normal is by getting rid of the song of Ice, the Others and the song of Fire, the Dragonlords. That won't be happen in peace.

You don't solve the human condition by killing all humans. And the solution to a dichotomy between fire and ice isn't just to eliminate the extremes! 

"My heart," Davos said slowly, "is full of doubts."

Although I do think what you describe is the Maester approach, get rid of everything magical, as flawed as that sort of thinking may be.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Valyria did exist during the Long Night, people seem to be unaware of this information.

“10,000 years” is mentioned in the novels. But you also have places where maesters say, “No, no, it wasn’t 10,000, it was 5,000.” Again, I’m trying to reflect real-life things that a lot of high fantasy doesn’t reflect. In the Bible, it has people living for hundreds of years and then people added up how long each lived and used that to figure out when events took place. Really? I don’t think so. Now we’re getting more realistic dating now from carbon dating and archeology. But Westeros doesn’t have that. They’re still in the stage of “my grandfather told me and his grandfather told him.” So I think it’s closer to 5,000 years. But you’re right. Westeros is a very different place. There’s no King’s Landing. There’s no Iron Throne. There are no Targaryens — Valyria has hardly begun to rise yet with its dragons and the great empire that it built.
https://ew.com/author-interviews/2018/11/19/george-rr-martin-interview/

So they did exist during the Long Night and from what we know, they still were "weak" just after the Long Night but they had dragons. They fought Old Ghis 5 times, and won fives times.

Dates are not accurate when you are talking about legends form thousands of years ago. On that I agree.

I don't think this says that Valyria was around during the Long Night. Also, the TV shows are meaningless at this point when we talk about the books, so I would rather not get into discussing them, let alone the canceled ones.

Nothing I have ever seen indicates that Valyria existed during the Long Night. And it directly contradicts your claim that the Last Hero could be Azor Ahai:

It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

The last war took place 5.000 bc.
If we look on how they got dragons we can see an interesting legend:

In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts—all impossibly ancient—claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai'i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals.
Yet if men in the Shadow had tamed dragons first, why did they not conquer as the Valyrians did?
The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Rise of Valyria

And a great explanation by Alabastur is that those people were the Children of the Forest, the Singers, those who sing the songs of earth.
They are refered as an eldery race, making them ancient.
Bran and Meera have to give them names because human can't pronounce their and they don't alway use names, making them nameless.
They know the how to craft obsidian, access dreams and have visions which is what a glass candle do.
They also know how to control animals, usefull to get dragons.
Why did they not conquer with the dragons? The Children arent conquerors, they aren't great warriors, they "sing sad songs".

So on the one hand yes, I think the Children are the root of magic, both fire and ice. I agree they once existed in Essos, as evidenced by the House of the Undying and the Ifequevron.

One the other, Children do fight, they do wage war, and they don't all just sit around singing sad songs.

Again, like with Mel's nonsense, you have to question what you are being told. Bran highlights this by pointing out that Men would seek vengeance, which is obviously what the Children did as well.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

It fits we everything we've seen. The Singers and the Last Hero had to make a new song to counter the song of Ice, the Others, to bring back the day, causing long summers:

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children—lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River—to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.
The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night
 

Not counter, sing with!

The solution isn't a war, it's peace.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

The Children taught the Valyrians how to tame the dragons and how to make dragonsteel / Valyriansteel to counter their first creation, the Others.

I disagree.

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

It fits with the timeline: toward the end of the Long Night, around ~5.000 bc, the Valyrians got the dragons, the Long Night ends and, just after, Old Ghis attack Valyria to get an hand on the dragons. The Valyrian victory, 5.000 bc, launched the Freehold expansion.

Again, I think you are off here about Valyria. 

18 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Martin said he likes title with multiples meaning.
We have the Singers, their spells are  call songs, they made the Others, the song of Ice, and the Dragonlords, the song of Fire. Those forces are opposite but both destructive and are responsible for the irregularity of the seasons.

IMO, The seasons are out of whack because the elements are not in harmony.

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