Black Crow Posted February 17, 2022 Author Share Posted February 17, 2022 The She-wolves of Winterfell was promised and then quietly forgotten for unknown reasons. GRRM might indeed have simply moved on, but being Heretics we've always suspected that it might reveal too much about what's really going on, while stories about Targaryens help to distract... As to the "different" Starks in the crypts, yes I think we're deliberately shown a change. Ice may come into it, but I think its also the disappearance [until now] of the Direwolves Summerhall on the other hand, I think was just a Fire thing - but in anticipation of the gathering storm and return of Winter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share Posted February 21, 2022 Leaving aside the merits [or otherwise] of the R+L=J question, the obsession of late with the history of House Targaryen does raise problematic questions. Its obviously a distraction from pre-conquest Westerosi history and the unresolved issues with House Stark and while a deeper understanding of what the Royal family was getting up to over the last 300 years might be interesting enough, nothing so far "revealed" has advanced our understanding of the broader conflict between Ice and Fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 My thoughts are that the Children didn’t create white walkers. I think the Ironborn were First Men that were practicing ice magic and inadvertently brought about the Long Night. One of the sayings about wights is that THEY bring the cold. Maybe it’s actually the white walkers that bring the cold in order to animate the wights? Maybe an abundance of wights brought on the Long Night? The Nights Watch vows imply that the cold is the enemy as well as the night. The horn that wakes the sleepers…the wargs and skinchangers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 21, 2022 Author Share Posted February 21, 2022 As I recall it is indeed the White Walkers who either come with the cold winds or bring the cold winds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: As I recall it is indeed the White Walkers who either come with the cold winds or bring the cold winds Quote A Game of Thrones - Prologue Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all? "Will, where are you?" Ser Waymar called up. "Can you see anything?" He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. "Answer me! Why is it so cold?" It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek. I think the wind brings the cold, because once it becomes really cold the wind died down to a gentle breeze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 10 hours ago, Melifeather said: I think the wind brings the cold, because once it becomes really cold the wind died down to a gentle breeze. Which makes sense with the next book titled The Winds of Winter. The last thing Jon feels at the end of ADwD is the cold. In the books it may not be Melisandre reviving him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 22, 2022 Author Share Posted February 22, 2022 8 hours ago, alienarea said: The last thing Jon feels at the end of ADwD is the cold. In the books it may not be Melisandre reviving him. That I think gets to the heart of the matter. If Jon by popular report is the true heir to the Targaryen throne and really is Azor Ahai, the champion of Light and Fire, then Melisandre is the sadly obvious choice to bring him back from the dead. If on the other hand we are looking at a binary conflict with two champions, one of Ice and one of Fire, as suggested by the Reeds, then no, it certainly won't be Melisandre and Jon is not the one and only hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 22, 2022 Author Share Posted February 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Black Crow said: That I think gets to the heart of the matter. If Jon by popular report is the true heir to the Targaryen throne and really is Azor Ahai, the champion of Light and Fire, then Melisandre is the sadly obvious choice to bring him back from the dead. If on the other hand we are looking at a binary conflict with two champions, one of Ice and one of Fire, as suggested by the Reeds, then no, it certainly won't be Melisandre and Jon is not the one and only hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 4 hours ago, Black Crow said: That I think gets to the heart of the matter. If Jon by popular report is the true heir to the Targaryen throne and really is Azor Ahai, the champion of Light and Fire, then Melisandre is the sadly obvious choice to bring him back from the dead. If on the other hand we are looking at a binary conflict with two champions, one of Ice and one of Fire, as suggested by the Reeds, then no, it certainly won't be Melisandre and Jon is not the one and only hero. I think I disagree here. I'm not sure there is a resurrection option other than being raised by fire in the books. Ice magic at most seems to animate the dead as a mindless zombie. Coldhands doesn't have to the telltale blue eyes so he hasn't been resurrected by ice magic as far as I can tell. Presumably he's also been been resurrected by the living flame, much like Stonheart and Beric (and probably the historic Grey King). It's probably the main reason that GRRM needed to position Melisandre at the Wall and keep her there after Stannis left for Winterfell. But regardless, I'm not sure that this fact necessarily puts Jon on one side or the other (pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Yes, it is true that Coldhands does not have blue eyes. So far only the white walkers and wights have blue eyes. We've assumed this indicates ice magic, but that might not be the reason after all. It might signify something else that we just haven't thought of. Beric and Catelyn were both raised by fire yet neither of their eyes changed. The only "fire side" people with weird eye colors are Melisandre with her fire-red eyes and Euron who has one blue eye and one black eye. Well, I guess Tyrion also has eyes of two different colors, but we don't typically group him with magic. I think its important to note that people resurrected by fire have not had a change in eye color, and since Coldhands has black eyes then perhaps resurrection by ice doesn't change eye color either. Something else must need to happen in order for the eyes to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 22, 2022 Author Share Posted February 22, 2022 6 minutes ago, Melifeather said: I think its important to note that people resurrected by fire have not had a change in eye color, and since Coldhands has black eyes then perhaps resurrection by ice doesn't change eye color either. Something else must need to happen in order for the eyes to change. I think that the magick is more complicated than we seem to think Melisandre has red eyes [and I think that the lenses are intended - like a dog's eyes], does magic and so on and so forth,but neither Beric Dondarion nor Catelyn Stark who were dead but are now walking have red eyes. Coldhands was dead and is now walking but doesn't have blue eyes The Wights are dead and have blue eyes, but although they walk and kill I don't think that they are "alive" in the sense that Coldhands obviously is. The Walkers are, to quote GRRM a different kind of life, they are not revived corpses in the [different] ways that Coldhands and the Wights are. We think that they are spirits of the air who can temporarily construct themselves bodies as and when required, using ice crystals in the air - perhaps just as Melisandre does when she produces a shadow baby Basically, I think that both sides can do it and we shouldn't necessarily be identlfying one as Fire magick and the other at Ice magic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Black Crow said: Melisandre has red eyes [and I think that the lenses are intended - like a dog's eyes], does magic and so on and so forth,but neither Beric Dondarion nor Catelyn Stark who were dead but are now walking have red eyes. Thoros is a red priest who has not had his eyes described as red, and unlike Mel, he brings one person, Beric, back from the dead. Mel likes to kill people, not revive them, apparently. Not sure she will be the one to revive Jon, if in fact he's actually dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 2 hours ago, Melifeather said: Beric and Catelyn were both raised by fire yet neither of their eyes changed. The only "fire side" people with weird eye colors are Melisandre with her fire-red eyes My guess is Melisandre's appearance has more to do with a glamor than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Does Coldhands have black eyes? Like the one Euron is hiding behind his eye-patch? That would be interesting ... If my sudpicion that the Starks have a genetic trait that either makes them compatible to the Others or has been passed down from them is true, he will not need to be raised but rise himself once the snowstorm originating from Winterfell reaches the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 2 hours ago, alienarea said: he will not need to be raised but rise himself once the snowstorm originating from Winterfell reaches the wall. The storm has already come to the Wall as it's noted the wind and storm coming from the South and Jon noticed drifts against the cell doors, the cells on bottom of the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 7 hours ago, LongRider said: The storm has already come to the Wall as it's noted the wind and storm coming from the South and Jon noticed drifts against the cell doors, the cells on bottom of the Wall. So he'll just get up. "Blue eyes, baby's got blue eyes ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 23, 2022 Author Share Posted February 23, 2022 6 hours ago, alienarea said: So he'll just get up. "Blue eyes, baby's got blue eyes ..." If we assume that the Crow [whether its Bloodraven, Bran, or Old King Coel] is working for or at least with the Children, its pretty clear that they are not responsible for or allies of the White Walkers Whether you ascribe it to genetics or magic, the Starks are the key to this business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 While Coldhands lacks the blue eyes of the ice wights, he does share other characteristics with them--such as having hands that are "cold as ice," (according to Sam) and have turned black from congealed blood that has ceased to flow; compare this to Beric, whose blood is also black, but flows and can even be used to set his sword aflame, so we might speculate that he is not cold to the touch. The wight horde seem to have lost their sense of individual autonomy (or are having it actively stolen from them), but they are not operating without purpose; they do not scatter from one another attacking aimlessly, they travel as armies, and in the case of Othor when his body was brought through the Wall, he did not lash out randomly--he specifically targeted Commander Mormont's quarters. I always go back to this scene, the final lines from the Varamyr prologue: Quote One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life. She sees me. To me, what Varamyr means here isn't that One-Eye the wolf has been spotted, but that Varamyr himself - his mind or spirit - is being seen within One-Eye by whatever it is that drives the wight horde, and gives them their marching orders. To return to Coldhands, I believe he was resurrected by the same magic as the other ice wights, but something has happened to allow him to retain (or regain) autonomy--maybe there are others that wield the same magic, but resurrected him with more benign intentions, maybe he's a skinchanger who was able to fight a battle of wills for his body, or maybe he was freed with some assistance from Bloodraven and the CotF. I raise the latter prospect because Coldhands describes the Last Greenseer to Bran as "a friend." While that could simply have been a broad answer to Bran's question indicating that Bloodraven will be an ally to Bran, it may have also been a more personal description of Coldhands and Bloodraven's relationship--IMO, one prospect for Coldhands' identity is that he's one of the Raven's Teeth who willingly took the black along with Bloodraven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Matthew. said: The wight horde seem to have lost their sense of individual autonomy (or are having it actively stolen from them), but they are not operating without purpose; they do not scatter from one another attacking aimlessly, they travel as armies, and in the case of Othor when his body was brought through the Wall, he did not lash out randomly--he specifically targeted Commander Mormont's quarters. I suspect that the wights do not move of their own volition and that is why they can remain hidden under the snow or laying around on the ground like scattered toys until wanted. They only seem to move at night and when the cold winds rise them, but I think these things are simply clues that its a warg or skin changer that's moving them. I'm seeing the blue eyes of the wights as being the connection to the blue eyes of the white walkers and in return the white walkers come as the sun is going down - a time when people go to sleep and a time when wargs and skin changers have an easier time opening their third eye. Furthermore the white walkers are only held together by magic. Pierce them with a magic-busting obsidian blade and they rupture into mist and melting water. I have the feeling that the same white walker can be recreated over and over every night until the warg or skin changer creating them is killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 23, 2022 Author Share Posted February 23, 2022 Or to put it another way. X is the blue flame in the eye. X can create a "body" of ice and snow around him - one with Stark features, funnily enough or X can animate one or more corpses [as wights] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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