Jump to content

Heresy 242 The Other Starks


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

Warging and skinchanging at night is safer too. It conceals and protects them from harm. To the casual observer they just look like they are sleeping. We’ve witnessed how exposed Bran’s body was when he lay limp in the snow while he inhabited Hodor’s body.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

While Coldhands lacks the blue eyes of the ice wights, he does share other characteristics with them--such as having hands that are "cold as ice," (according to Sam) and have turned black from congealed blood that has ceased to flow; compare this to Beric, whose blood is also black, but flows and can even be used to set his sword aflame, so we might speculate that he is not cold to the touch.

This might have more to do with the condition of the body when raised.  It doesn’t appear that Stoneheart’s blood is flowing either despite the open wounds still present on her face and throat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

This might have more to do with the condition of the body when raised.  It doesn’t appear that Stoneheart’s blood is flowing either despite the open wounds still present on her face and throat.

Yes is important to bear the circumstances in mind.

Beric was hacked about and basically dying in Thoros' arms when the Red priest performed what he thought was the last rites and was astonished to find him still "alive" come morning.

Coldhands, or whoever he is, had died and the blood had already drained into the low points in his body, before somebody came along and told him to get up and go

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Furthermore the white walkers are only held together by magic. Pierce them with a magic-busting obsidian blade and they rupture into mist and melting water. I have the feeling that the same white walker can be recreated over and over every night until the warg or skin changer creating them is killed.

This is something I'm curious about as well; perhaps, like Melisandre's shadows, they are something that cannot be truly stopped without stopping the caster.

Another angle I've considered it from is that if they are more akin to a spirit, to stop them from returning to a new ice body, you have to bind the spirit--which might raise some interesting prospects regarding the Winterfell crypts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

This might have more to do with the condition of the body when raised.  It doesn’t appear that Stoneheart’s blood is flowing either despite the open wounds still present on her face and throat.

A fair point, and I believe she's described as having unhealed bruises and bits of exposed skull as well. 

That does, however, still leave the curious bit with Beric's burning sword. While my gut feeling is still that Coldhands is, for lack of a better term, a "cold wight," and that Beric and Stoneheart are "fire wights," I can see a scenario where the magic animating Coldhands is the same as the magic that was animating Beric. I'm thinking here of the legends in the NW annals regarding the Last Hero wielding a weapon of dragonsteel.

One interpretation of that would be to suggest that the blade itself was magical or special,  that it was Dawn, or some sort of 'Valyrian-style' steel, or whatever. However, maybe the real magic resided within the wielder, with the Last Hero being capable of turning any weapon he wielded into a firebrand, and "dragonsteel" was simply a flowery way of describing this phenomenon.

Accordingly, it may be the case that one of the ways that war was waged against the Others during the Long Night was to raise fire wights--and that Thoros has accidentally tapped into a magic that is older than the Red Faith. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Another angle I've considered it from is that if they are more akin to a spirit, to stop them from returning to a new ice body, you have to bind the spirit--which might raise some interesting prospects regarding the Winterfell crypts.

Oh absolutely

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/23/2022 at 6:31 PM, Black Crow said:

Yes is important to bear the circumstances in mind.

Beric was hacked about and basically dying in Thoros' arms when the Red priest performed what he thought was the last rites and was astonished to find him still "alive" come morning.

Coldhands, or whoever he is, had died and the blood had already drained into the low points in his body, before somebody came along and told him to get up and go

Also, Beric died South of the wall and Coldhands most likely North of the wall.

Some options: 

- fire magic can raise the dead South of the wall, ice magic can raise the dead North of the wall

- or, it's the same magic, but the outcome is different depending on which side of the wall you're on.

- as Melisandre suggests that the wall is an amplifier for magic, it might matter how far away from the wall the magic is performed. This would be interesting for Jon, I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, alienarea said:

 

- Or, it's the same magic, but the outcome is different depending on which side of the wall you're on.

I'm very much inclined to go with this option

With the caveat of course that Jon is a Stark - or a "son of Winterfell" - and the Coldhands scenario may not apply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm very much inclined to go with this option

With the caveat of course that Jon is a Stark - or a "son of Winterfell" - and the Coldhands scenario may not apply.

A son of Winterfell is an Other Stark. Or another Stark ;)

Going back to my OP, if Old Nan told the truth, the Night King was a Stark. He had half-human children with his pale bride, an Other Woman.

I need to look up the part about the Marsh king in the books, but if I recall correctly, the Starks inherited the warging from there. Is this the same as the long night? It reads different, but a long time has passed.

And how are the Reeds connected to this? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

A son of Winterfell is an Other Stark. Or another Stark ;)

Going back to my OP, if Old Nan told the truth, the Night King was a Stark. He had half-human children with his pale bride, an Other Woman.

I need to look up the part about the Marsh king in the books, but if I recall correctly, the Starks inherited the warging from there. Is this the same as the long night? It reads different, but a long time has passed.

And how are the Reeds connected to this? 

I pretty sure that the Reeds are connected through the marriage of one of the Starks to the Marsh King's daughter [who-ever she was] but I'm not sure that there's any evidence that might be where the warging comes from 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I pretty sure that the Reeds are connected through the marriage of one of the Starks to the Marsh King's daughter [who-ever she was] but I'm not sure that there's any evidence that might be where the warging comes from 

I mixed the Marsh king up with the Barrow king - my fault.

Looked at history of ice and fire online and apparently the Starks fought the Barrow king for a long time.

What if the original Others were the Barrow king and his people, and the stories of the long night are an exaggeration of this conflict?

While I mixed up the Marsh king and the Barrow king I realized that one of Jon's assasins is Bowen Marsh - I don't think the name is a coincidence.

Another find, probably unrelated: Stepen King's Stark - The Dark Half is part of his Castle Rock cycle and apparently features carnivorous sparrows. Didn't know that before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, alienarea said:

I mixed the Marsh king up with the Barrow king - my fault.

Looked at history of ice and fire online and apparently the Starks fought the Barrow king for a long time.

What if the original Others were the Barrow king and his people, and the stories of the long night are an exaggeration of this conflict?

As I recall there's a suggestion - I think in the World Book - that the white lady who married the Nights King, may have been a daughter of a Barrow King, and the reference to her being a "corpse queen" may have been a reference to necromancy rather than her being oneof the Others

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As I recall there's a suggestion - I think in the World Book - that the white lady who married the Nights King, may have been a daughter of a Barrow King, and the reference to her being a "corpse queen" may have been a reference to necromancy rather than her being oneof the Others

I wonder whether the Barrows (for lack of a better term) were the original Others. And the wildlings their descendants.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From Wiki of Ice and Fire:

The Barrow Kings were a dynasty of kingsfrom the barrowlands in what is now the north. They claimed to have been monarchs over all First Men and called themselves Kings of the First Men.[1]

History

The Barrow Kings claimed descent from the First King of the First Men, who is said to be buried at Great Barrow at Barrowton.[2][3]Some Barrow Kings allied with Marsh Kingsagainst southron invaders who tried to pass the Neck.[1]

Singers claim the Barrow Kings fought against the Kings of Winter, the Starks of Winterfell, north of the barrowlands, in the Thousand Years War, but runes of the First Men indicates the conflict lasted about two hundred years. When the last Barrow King submitted to Winterfell, the Stark king received his daughter in marriage. The Dustins of Barrowton claim descent from the First King and the Barrow Kings.[2]

Maester Kennet's Passages of the Deadmentions a curse was supposedly placed on the Great Barrow, weakening and making corpselike any living man who dared to equal the First King. Some maesters think the corpse queen of the Night's King may have actually been a daughter of a Barrow King, as they were often connected with graves.[4]

My summary: The Barrow King fought the Starks  north of Winterfell in a long war and is associated with graves.

Not (?) related, from the official Conan exiles Wiki:

The Barrow King cave can only be accessed and exited while carrying https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/conanexiles_gamepedia/images/d/da/Icon_demon_blood.png/revision/latest/thumbnail-down/width/20/height/20?cb=20180507210001 Demon Blood when opening the front entrance. 
The King Beneath, also known as the Barrow King or Priestking, is the boss inside the cave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^
If Lady Dustin is indeed a descendant of the Barrow King, this adds another layer to her interests in the crypts of Winterfell and Ned's bones. And why she wanted the bones of her husband back. And why she gave her maidenhead to Brandon - old ways, Brandon consuming 'jus prima nocte'?

Additionally, first Brandon than Ned abandoning a marriage with a descendant of the barrow king for Rickard's 'Southron ambitions' may have triggered the White Walkers (in case they are connected to the barrow king)?

Need to look up this: does the snowstorm originate from Winterfell after Lady Dustin has been to the entrance of the crypts with Theon?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My immediate thought on all of this is that the crypts under Winterfell aren't just somewhere convenient to park the dead Starks, but have a purpose connected with the Barrow Kings, which may be why the aforementioned dead need to be held down with iron swords

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

^
If Lady Dustin is indeed a descendant of the Barrow King, this adds another layer to her interests in the crypts of Winterfell and Ned's bones. And why she wanted the bones of her husband back. And why she gave her maidenhead to Brandon - old ways, Brandon consuming 'jus prima nocte'?

Additionally, first Brandon than Ned abandoning a marriage with a descendant of the barrow king for Rickard's 'Southron ambitions' may have triggered the White Walkers (in case they are connected to the barrow king)?

Need to look up this: does the snowstorm originate from Winterfell after Lady Dustin has been to the entrance of the crypts with Theon?

Lady Dustin is a Dustin by marriage not birth.  So when Brandon, um, “mounted” her she was still a Ryswell.  Pun intended.  

She may still be descended from the Barrow kings, but so could most of the nobility of the North.  I think GRRM may be less concerned with blood and more concerned with symbolism.

So when Brandon mounted her, she was a symbolic horse.  But it’s pretty obvious that Lady Barbrey is now very symbolic of death. Being the lady of Barrowtown and being the one that travels into the Winterfell crypts.

Perhaps GRRM is making some parallels between her and Lady Stoneheart, the widow of Winterfell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maester Kennet's Passages of the Deadmentions a curse was supposedly placed on the Great Barrow, weakening and making corpselike any living man who dared to equal the First King. Some maesters think the corpse queen of the Night's King may have actually been a daughter of a Barrow King, as they were often connected with graves.[4]

The conclusion that the Corpse Queen may have been a daughter of a Barrow King does not make logical sense, because according to Maester Kennet the curse is upon any who dare to equal the First King. The First King was a Barrow King so any of his daughters would not be corpse-like, but rather a daughter of someone who dared to be an equal. Doesn't it make more sense that since the Starks conquered the Barrow Kings that it would be a Stark daughter that would be corpse-like? Maybe all Stark daughters are born cursed to become corpses either right before or immediately after they marry? The daughter that gave birth to the Bastard O'Winterfell had to hide in the crypts to avoid death.

Perhaps the story of the Nights King is actually about how the Barrow King married a Stark daughter and how that led to his downfall?

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Lady Dustin is a Dustin by marriage not birth.  So when Brandon, um, “mounted” her she was still a Ryswell.  Pun intended.

:laugh:  Good catch!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...