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Heresy 242 The Other Starks


Black Crow

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2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Perhaps the story of the Nights King is actually about how the Barrow King married a Stark daughter and how that led to his downfall?

The more I think about this thought, the more it makes sense. The Barrow Kings were First Men that ruled the north. Their graves from their defeat are now Barrowton. The Starks defeated them and then built the Wall to contain the survivors. Anyone that didn't bend the knee to the Lord of Winterfell became prisoners of war.

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Bastard O'Winterfell story:

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.”

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.’"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.”

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—“

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?”

He scowled. "Go on.”

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast.”

"Bael had brought her back?”

"It never happened," Jon said.

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword.”

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.”

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep.

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The mother of the Bastard O'Winterfell lived thirty years after giving birth. We're never told if she married anyone else, but I suspect she was un-marriageable due to giving birth to a bastard, so she lived at home with her father, Lord Brandon Stark. When her son returned home with Bael's head, she threw herself from a tower. Later on the Bastard O'Winterfell is killed by his own men. One of his lords - a Bolton perhaps - peeled his skin and wore it as a cloak.

I see parallels to this story with Ashara. I think Ashara was impregnated by "Bael" - aka Ned Stark - and gave birth to the current bastard of Winterfell, namely Jon Snow. She returned home to Starfall whereupon she's visited after the rebellion by "Bael" who brings her her brother's sword. It's reported that she threw herself from a tower in grief, but in my opinion she's just hiding in the crypts and will later be discovered alive.

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39 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The conclusion that the Corpse Queen may have been a daughter of a Barrow King does not make logical sense, because according to Maester Kennet the curse is upon any who dare to equal the First King. The First King was a Barrow King so any of his daughters would not be corpse-like, but rather a daughter of someone who dared to be an equal.

Not necessarily. Maester Kennet is trying to make sense of old legends. All that he could be referring to is a marriage between a Stark and the daughter of a Barrow King - with the ability or at least the reputation of being a necromancer. Although rge Nights King story as told by Old Nan is about the Others, it could be about what happened when the Starks married into the Barrowtown lot.

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54 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Not necessarily. Maester Kennet is trying to make sense of old legends. All that he could be referring to is a marriage between a Stark and the daughter of a Barrow King - with the ability or at least the reputation of being a necromancer. Although rge Nights King story as told by Old Nan is about the Others, it could be about what happened when the Starks married into the Barrowtown lot.

It would explain the "frozen hell reserved for Starks" if the curse was upon them.

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19 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

It would explain the "frozen hell reserved for Starks" if the curse was upon them.

Lets explore this idea that the frozen hell reserved for Starks has to do with corpse-like daughters. When Ned thought this phrase it was after Arya was captured and Sansa's wolf Lady was sentenced to die. Ned is most definitely dealing with two daughters:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard IV

"Another day," Ned said. Perhaps too sharply, from the looks they gave him. He would have to remember that he was no longer in Winterfell, where only the king stood higher; here, he was but first among equals. "Forgive me, my lords," he said in a softer tone. "I am tired. Let us call a halt for today and resume when we are fresher." He did not ask for their consent, but stood abruptly, nodded at them all, and made for the door.

Outside, wagons and riders were still pouring through the castle gates, and the yard was a chaos of mud and horseflesh and shouting men. The king had not yet arrived, he was told. Since the ugliness on the Trident, the Starks and their household had ridden well ahead of the main column, the better to separate themselves from the Lannisters and the growing tension. Robert had hardly been seen; the talk was he was traveling in the huge wheelhouse, drunk as often as not. If so, he might be hours behind, but he would still be here too soon for Ned's liking. He had only to look at Sansa's face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher's boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

 

If the Barrow King placed a curse on all Stark daughters then it seems very appropriate that Ned would be reminded of this curse after both of his daughters were involved in such a stressful situation.

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7 hours ago, alienarea said:

Need to look up this: does the snowstorm originate from Winterfell after Lady Dustin has been to the entrance of the crypts with Theon?

The chapter this is from is The Turncloak in Dance.  Starts with mentioning of the heavy snowfall on WF and Roose blaming in on Stannis "He is a stranger here, and the old gods will not suffer him to live."  All through this chapter the deepening snow is mentioned.  

In the Theon chapter before this one, The Prince of Winterfell, Ramsay marries fArya, and what is mentioned weather wise is the mists and the cold.  Was it Ramsay's abominable marriage that brought down the wrath of the old gods, and not Stannis?

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A corpse-like daughter spotted in Winterfell, found among the first few paragraphs of The Prince of Winterfell chapter in Dance.

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The hearth was caked with cold black ash, the room unheated but for candles. Every time a door opened their flames would sway and shiver. The bride was shivering too. They had dressed her in white lambswool trimmed with lace. Her sleeves and bodice were sewn with freshwater pearls, and on her feet were white doeskin slippers—pretty, but not warm. Her face was pale, bloodless.
A face carved of ice, Theon Greyjoy thought as he draped a fur-trimmed cloak about her shoulders. A corpse buried in the snow. "My lady. It is time." Beyond the door, the music called them, lute and pipes and drum.
The bride raised her eyes. Brown eyes, shining in the candlelight. "I will be a good wife to him, and t-true. I … I will please him and give him sons. I will be a better wife than the real Arya could have been, he'll see."

 

My emphasis.  Jeyne is not a daughter of WF as Sansa and Arya are, but she is a girl who grew up in in WF then was passed off as Arya Stark of WF and the bride of Ramsay Bolton.  Above she is described with a face that was pale and bloodless and looks carved of ice.  She is dressed in white and greys.  No wonder Theon compares her to a corpse.

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1 hour ago, LongRider said:

A corpse-like daughter spotted in Winterfell, found among the first few paragraphs of The Prince of Winterfell chapter in Dance.

My emphasis.  Jeyne is not a daughter of WF as Sansa and Arya are, but she is a girl who grew up in in WF then was passed off as Arya Stark of WF and the bride of Ramsay Bolton.  Above she is described with a face that was pale and bloodless and looks carved of ice.  She is dressed in white and greys.  No wonder Theon compares her to a corpse.

A corpse bride pretending to be a Stark daughter.

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20 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

A corpse bride pretending to be a Stark daughter.

She's being forced rather than pretending.  Still, I can't think of another woman in story described this way.  Plus, I believe Jeyne was born at WF.   While not a daughter of Winterfell, which infers a Stark, still interesting.  

edt:  Perhaps the corpse bride of the Night's King wasn't a corpse, either.  

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6 hours ago, LongRider said:

edt:  Perhaps the corpse bride of the Night's King wasn't a corpse, either.  

Well that's basically what Maester Kennet is suggesting. She wasn't literally a corpse, but rather a necromancer or at the very least came from a family practicing necromancy, and whatever the truth about the origins  and motivations of some of the parties involved in this story there's no denying that necromancy plays a prominent role on both sides

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well that's basically what Maester Kennet is suggesting. She wasn't literally a corpse, but rather a necromancer or at the very least came from a family practicing necromancy, and whatever the truth about the origins  and motivations of some of the parties involved in this story there's no denying that necromancy plays a prominent role on both sides

I think you are attributing the necromancy to the Barrow Kings, because a barrow is a grave, but there's evidence that its the Starks that are the ones that won't stay dead. All those crypts in Winterfell are warded with iron swords. I'm beginning to believe Barrowton and the Barrow Kings are a misdirect...a slight of hand...a trick. Looky over there while I write about the Starks.

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I think you are attributing the necromancy to the Barrow Kings, because a barrow is a grave, but there's evidence that its the Starks that are the ones that won't stay dead. All those crypts in Winterfell are warded with iron swords. I'm beginning to believe Barrowton and the Barrow Kings are a misdirect...a slight of hand...a trick. Looky over there while I write about the Starks.

Or maybe the early Starks needed to be warded because they were descendants of the Barrow King's daught? That bloodline (and the warging?) disappeared but the tradition of warding the dead stayed because the knowledge about the connection to the Barrow King's daughter got lost.

If the warging is connected to the Barrow King and his descendants, we have a simple scenario of Stark vs Barrow King as the origin for the long night, Stark defeating the Barrow king, building the wall and the allies of the Barrow King becoming the wildlings. All wargs we know of are current Starks or wildlings.

As this seems to be a maternal bloodline thing, we are back to who was Mrs. Rickard Stark? 

 

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Jeyne is from Winterfell, not as a Stark but of the stewards of the Starks.  She was bought from LF by the Boltons to be coerced into being an imposter of Arya Stark.  The Boltons wanted fArya to marry Ramsay to claim WF and the Boltons to increase their power in the North.

From the wiki;

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According to legend, Night's King lived during the Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was complete. He was a fearless warrior who served as the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. After viewing the white-skinned woman from atop the Wall, he chased and loved her. Night's King brought her back to the Nightfort and after the unholy union, he declared himself king and her his queen.[1]

Night's King ruled the Nightfort as his own castle for thirteen years. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the north. It was not until Brandon the Breaker, the King of Winter, and Joramun, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, joined forces that Night's King was brought down and the Night's Watch freed.[2] After his fall, when it was discovered that Night's King had been making sacrifices to the Others, all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden and forgotten.[1]

There are many parallels in these two stories.  While Ramsay is no Commander of anything, he does have some men he is lord of.  The Night King views and captures a white-skinned woman and has an 'unholy union' with her.  Ramsay certainly has an unholy union with his imposter bride.  The NK ruled the NIghtfort and during his rule, he commits atrocities.  Ramsay is already committing atrocities and has a reputation for doing so and plans to rule WF.

The NK's corpse queen a pale, living woman stolen from her home, forced into marriage by her abductor who turns out to be a really terrible person.  Perhaps the NK was a Bolton and not a Stark.

  

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24 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Or maybe the early Starks needed to be warded because they were descendants of the Barrow King's daught? That bloodline (and the warging?) disappeared but the tradition of warding the dead stayed because the knowledge about the connection to the Barrow King's daughter got lost.

If the warging is connected to the Barrow King and his descendants, we have a simple scenario of Stark vs Barrow King as the origin for the long night, Stark defeating the Barrow king, building the wall and the allies of the Barrow King becoming the wildlings. All wargs we know of are current Starks or wildlings.

As this seems to be a maternal bloodline thing, we are back to who was Mrs. Rickard Stark? 

 

But don’t forget the curse the Barrow Kings placed upon anyone who dared to be the equal of the First King. The First King was from Barrowton. The Starks defeated them, so it seems logical to me that the curse is upon the Starks.

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11 minutes ago, LongRider said:

From the wiki, here is the curse:   

Sounds like Roose, he's a bit corpselike.

The Great Barrow is a large grassy hill in the north that contains the grave of the First King. The Dustins do rule over Barrowton on behalf of House Stark, but the original identity of the First King is muddled. It is believed that the First King was also a Barrow King. Singers claim the Kings of Winter defeated the Barrow King so who placed the curse upon the grave that weakens and makes corpse-like any man who dares to be the equal of the First King?

I agree Roose is corpse-like, but hasn't he always been a bit pale even before he rose to power? And I question how powerful he truly is - or should I say was?  He accumulated power by being two faced to his liege lord, but it was his acts of treachery that are the root cause of the disintegrating situation at Winterfell now.

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I'm rather mindful in this current discussion that GRRM many years ago, said that we weren't going to see any Gods making personal appearances battling it out in Westeros. I don't remember the context but I think it was in response to speculation about R'hllor and the Great Other appearing.

I suspect therefore that what we're actually looking at is not a struggle between Light and Darkness/Ice and Fire per se, but rather a battle between two rival gangs of necromancers

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5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Singers claim the Kings of Winter defeated the Barrow King so who placed the curse upon the grave that weakens and makes corpse-like any man who dares to be the equal of the First King?

I agree Roose is corpse-like, but hasn't he always been a bit pale even before he rose to power? And I question how powerful he truly is - or should I say was?  He accumulated power by being two faced to his liege lord, but it was his acts of treachery that are the root cause of the disintegrating situation at Winterfell now.

Singers claim, perhaps the claim is an embroidery for their songs.   Or a curse to stop possible grave robbers.  There were many powerful Starks, Kings in the North before the Eddard Stark who was not a King.  For all of Roose's treachery, he still controls "A peaceful land, a quiet people."   

Could the bride of the NK been a daughter of the Barrow King as some  maesters say?  If so, legend says he saw her from the top of Wall, which side of it was she on?

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It seems to me that the vision of the white haired woman sacrificing a man to the sapling heart tree at Winterfell might be the person who cast the curse. The pregnant woman that knelt and begged vengeance was many years after the executed captive:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.

"No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

 

 

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