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Heresy 242 The Other Starks


Black Crow

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It snowed here yesterday too, but as recent events have reminded us, snow and ice aren't what stops armies; its mud. Perhaps GRRM should note accordingly

The army of the dead will drown in the lands of the Crannogmen. It is known.

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14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It depends how carefully GRRM is looking at real world wars, but yes I can see the wights coming adrift in a dream of spring

Wasn't there something with wights in the water at Hardhome? Just a vague memory. And Patchface's prophecies about "under the sea"?

I have a feeling that the white walkers in the books will be stopped by a single event, most likely something that Bran does. And it will work in the books, but would not have worked in the tv series (like no action, no dragons, ...) hence they came up with the Night King and Arya offing him?

Another thing I'm looking into is Theon. Based on my crackpot that the original long night is about the Starks defeating the Barrow King, I wonder whether the Ironborn were descendants of the Barrow King? The white walkers are like undead ironborn ("we do not sow"), and Patchface, Brandon the Shipwrecked, Theon Prince of WInterfell - there's a layer I don't fully understand (yet).

 

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The Hardhome business was a reference to "dead things" in the water. While obviously sinister it might be significant that there wasn't actually any reference to be attacked by the "dead things". It may turn out that they were wights, clearly dead but just twitching impotently

An "event" of some kind may well happen, but I'd be inclined to suspect that it may be preceded by something  like this - the army of the dead grinding to a halt.

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On 3/22/2022 at 8:55 AM, Black Crow said:

I think we're distracted by the real world - unless there are any decent rumours out there about TWoW to cheer us up

Well I don't have anything new really; but I did come across something interesting, while sampling some of Preston Jacobs podcasts.  Specifically his podcast on Time Travelling Bran (in 6 parts).  I was most interested in Part 2.  

I didn't know that GRRM has written three short stories that feature time travelling.  In all three stories, it's consciousness that travels rather than the physical body.

The first story, For a Single Yesterday, published in Epoch Magazine in 1975 has the beginnings of time travelling back through memory after consuming a drug called chronine.  This is very much like Bran entering the weirwood memories.  The title reminds me of Bran's desire to be a knight;

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"

Bran shook his head. The day was growing old by then, and long shadows were creeping down the mountainsides to send black fingers through the pines. If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

Here's the story:

". . . for a single yesterday" - Lightspeed Magazine

Here's an analysis by Fattest Leech that you may find interesting:

For A Single Yesterday- Transcribed (fattestleechoficeandfire.com)

The second story, Under Siege, published in Omni Magazine in 1985; features consciousness time travellers who take over the mind of someone in the past.  In the end, a Tyrion-like character returns to the past for good but shares the host mind co-operatively.

Here's the audio book:

George R. R. Martin – Under Siege Audiobook – Audiobooks (Free) (staraudiobook.com)

The third story Unsound Variations is available in Dreamsongs Vol. 2.  Here is a review:

Quote

His time travel idea is a subtle one and actually manages to bypass some of the usual paradoxes. In Unsound Variations time travel happens only on the level of consciousness and nothing physical can be taken back, not even the traveller’s body. If I understood Martin’s idea correctly, when his protagonist travels back in time, a new time line begins, one that can unfold differently, but without affecting other timelines. So in a way you both can and can’t alter the future, depending at which timeline you’re looking at.

M. M. Bygrove: Unsound Variations by George R. R. Martin (mmbygrove.com)

I think Martin has used all three of these methods with Bran and possibly even with Euron although Euron isn't the traveller.  He would be the one who's mind is invaded.  I'll stand by the idea that Howland Reed and Bran are the Tree Knight together since Martin has used this device before. 

Although I don't know who's timeline was changed.   

 

 

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I think these ideas are possible, if only because GRRM has a pretty solid history of recycling ideas, characters and themes, very positively, by way of changing and developing them. It also speaks to the book/story as a whole and emphasises how GRRM is a serious writer engaged in something much more serious than a LOTR knock-off revolving around a return of the king scenario

 

By the way, welcome back

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Thank you.  Under Siege was very engaging.  I'm developing a thing for audiobooks. Martin gets around the time travel paradox by making the time-tripper's host, the agent of change. You can see how his ideas on time travel  have evolved and expanded.   Same with characters.  A storyteller called Nan debuts in Under Siege.  There are many similarities between the noseless, chess-playing, time-tripping mutant and Tyrion.  Snow and ice figure prominently in the past contrasted with the burned out landscape of the future.  The objective is to change an event in the past to stop an apocalyptic outcome in the future.

So I wonder if what Bran saw in the Heart of Winter was a vision of the future after all.  However I don't think Bran is the only character in the story who time trips.  It may be that Euron has been invaded from the future to bring about the Eldrich apocalypse and this is what Bran must stop. 

Eldritch Apocalypse – Poor Quentyn

Edit:  Under Siege is also the first appearance of a character called The Mage who is the group historian.

Under Siege is a second variation written by Martin on the Seige of Sveaborg.  The first was written in 1968 called The Fortress.

The Fortress (1968) by George R. R. Martin | Samuel's Scrutiny (wordpress.com)

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On 3/22/2022 at 9:36 AM, Melifeather said:

George keeps insisting that he's still working on Winds despite the many other new projects that have been promoted recently.

Yah.  I'm not thrilled.  You might as well make up your own conclusions at this point, because what the hell.  I don't want to wait around for another 5 to 10 years.  I'd be happy if he collaborated with another writer at this point to get it done.

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So coming back to Bran;  I don't he does a lot of time tripping in this story.  I do think he had his day as a knight to live out his boyhood fantasy.  This has unintended consequences.  If he never became the Tree Knight; then would events with Lyanna have unfolded as they did?  The Tourney at Harrenhall, as described by the Mage (Under Siege) would be pinpointed as a pivotal event in history. Bran makes a change through Howland as his host/agent and it triggers the events that follow.  Something he never foresaw or intended because he is still just a boy.

Another similarity between and Antonin (Under Siege) is that when Antonin is hosting the time tripper; he has certain knowledge about events that he knows, but can't explain.  Bran also has this kind of certainty:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Perhaps they did. The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he challenged."

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

This is the knowledge that Bran has that leaks back to him from his future self.  Antonin has glimpses of the future as well.

In Under Siege, Antonin and the time traveller eventually share a mind cooperatively and I think this may be the nature of green men.  The incident between Bran and Hodor outside BR's cave seems to be cooperative as well.  Bran and Hodor share a soul and I think this is what we are being shown. But I don't think that Bran is manipulating everything. 

It would be an interesting twist is something else had this power and was affecting Euron.  In Under Seige; the characters around Antonin notice a change in his behavior, which they think is a kind of insanity. Euron is maddest of them all.  Possibly from repeated invasions from an early age.

The Damphair seems to be able to recognize this presence at the Kingsmoot when he senses that through Euron,the Storm God is with them disrupting the event.  We have two sides to Euron, the smiling eye and the crow's eye.  The crow being the servant of the storm god.   Euron's eye patches seem like a tell.  The black patch representing the time tripper in observer mode and the red patch or blood eye when the storm god is fully present.  Eventually, Euron doesn't use a patch and doesn't conceal the entity known as the blood eye.  This would be a full blown take-over or mind share with Euron.

This dual aspect is represented by the twins in the sky (the blood moon) and on the sea (Euron):

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

 

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So how does Euron become the crow's eye or the drowned crow of the Ghost of High Heart's dream.

We have descriptions of Euron's black eye from Theon and crow's eyes are black of course.  I don't think he was born with one black and one blue eye.  I think the black eye is the pupil permanently dilated requiring a patch to keep out the light. This could be a result of his fall from the cliffs into the sea as a boy.  I think most likely brain damage.  Or like Hodor, brain damage caused when his mind was forcefully invaded. It also seems likely to me that he drowned in the sea and was resuscitated, hence the drowned crow.

But how does he become the plaything and host of the Blood Eye?  I'm guessing that he was also tested as Bran was but failed the test and actually died.  He was impaled on a spear of ice beyond the curtain of light and his soul was captured in some way by the thing that is trapped there.  Or they are in connected in a way that Bran and Hodor are connected.

I'm going to assume that Melisandre's ancient enemy, the soul of ice is the Blood Eye and not Bran..

 

  

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

So coming back to Bran;  I don't he does a lot of time tripping in this story.  I do think he had his day as a knight to live out his boyhood fantasy.  This has unintended consequences.  If he never became the Tree Knight; then would events with Lyanna have unfolded as they did?  The Tourney at Harrenhall, as described by the Mage (Under Siege) would be pinpointed as a pivotal event in history. Bran makes a change through Howland as his host/agent and it triggers the events that follow.  Something he never foresaw or intended because he is still just a boy.

Another similarity between and Antonin (Under Siege) is that when Antonin is hosting the time tripper; he has certain knowledge about events that he knows, but can't explain.  Bran also has this kind of certainty:

This is the knowledge that Bran has that leaks back to him from his future self.  Antonin has glimpses of the future as well.

In Under Siege, Antonin and the time traveller eventually share a mind cooperatively and I think this may be the nature of green men.  The incident between Bran and Hodor outside BR's cave seems to be cooperative as well.  Bran and Hodor share a soul and I think this is what we are being shown. But I don't think that Bran is manipulating everything. 

It would be an interesting twist is something else had this power and was affecting Euron.  In Under Seige; the characters around Antonin notice a change in his behavior, which they think is a kind of insanity. Euron is maddest of them all.  Possibly from repeated invasions from an early age.

The Damphair seems to be able to recognize this presence at the Kingsmoot when he senses that through Euron,the Storm God is with them disrupting the event.  We have two sides to Euron, the smiling eye and the crow's eye.  The crow being the servant of the storm god.   Euron's eye patches seem like a tell.  The black patch representing the time tripper in observer mode and the red patch or blood eye when the storm god is fully present.  Eventually, Euron doesn't use a patch and doesn't conceal the entity known as the blood eye.  This would be a full blown take-over or mind share with Euron.

This dual aspect is represented by the twins in the sky (the blood moon) and on the sea (Euron):

 

I think Howland is very talented himself and wouldn't have needed Bran's help to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree. He already knew how to do some pretty remarkable things and spent an entire winter living and learning on the Isle of Faces prior to attending the Harrenhal tourney.

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I think Howland is very talented himself and wouldn't have needed Bran's help to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree. He already knew how to do some pretty remarkable things and spent an entire winter living and learning on the Isle of Faces prior to attending the Harrenhal tourney.

Sure.  He spent two years on the God's Eye presumeably learning magic from the green men.  However in the story Meera tells, Howland prays to the gods for help and concludes the story with help was recieved from the old gods, the green men or the COTF.  Wh would Howland tell Meera he recieved help if he didn't need it?

Another interesting bit from For A Single Yesterday  is that something is forgotten when the timeline is changed.  The entire commune sings Me and Bobby Magee every night for years but when the main characters dies and presumably stays in the past; nobody in the commune remembers the song.

This memory loss or time of time might be something that George has used with Ned and Sansa.  Ned says that when Lyanna died and he passed her hand to Howland, he remembere nothing after that.

Sansa has a kind of fugue state or loss of time at the Eyrie after building the snow castle.  These strange moments stand out for some reason.  Is it to affect the timeline or make them forget something?

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16 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sure.  He spent two years on the God's Eye presumeably learning magic from the green men.  However in the story Meera tells, Howland prays to the gods for help and concludes the story with help was recieved from the old gods, the green men or the COTF.  Wh would Howland tell Meera he recieved help if he didn't need it?

Because that would mean that Bran was able to change the past which I doubt he can do. Presumably the greenseers can SEE the past, learn from it, and use what they've learned to change the present and more importantly the future.

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