Heresy 242 The Other Starks

[LynnS]

Interesting discussion by David Lightbringer on the connection between fire magic and shadow-binding.

Shadow of Rhllor (Melisandres Secrets 1) - YouTube

 

[LynnS]

Also interesting - I do like new ideas:

Fire Others (Melisandre's Secrets 2) - YouTube

The idea that Mel is slowly transorming into a full fire wight ; that she consumes fire and the use of fire magic advances her transformation is on point.  This passage seems to support this idea:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer. When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken. Thankfully Lord Snow had delivered her from that agony with his arrows. Whilst Stannis had seethed at the defiance, she had shuddered with relief.

This is also the scene where she is extending her magic to Stannis's sword, the great horn and Mance's glamor as well as Rattleshirt's glamor.  She is overextended and the ruby draws more fire to support themagic but she is almost consumed by it.

It's also interesting that Moqorro says the fiery hands burn out and must be replaced.  So Mel must sustain herself in some way or burn out.  I'm guessing that she consumes the life force of those she burns in her fires and this is how R'hllor 'sustains' her.. Children have the most life force to use. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"Does my lady wish to break her fast?" asked Devan.

Food. Yes, I should eat. Some days she forgot. R'hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men.

If she is consuming the life force of those she burns, that is definately something to keep secret. 

It's also worth noting that Thoros is using his own life force when he brings Beric back to life but there is a limit that will be the end of him.  So he is not replenishing his life force through fire consumption.

The notion that there are many form of shadowbinding including the animation of ice wights, Coldhands etc; seems to support the idea that as a shadowbinder; Melisabdre has the ability to see Varamyr through Thistles eyes.  He says "She sees me." and as a warg he has the ability to recognize another's presence. 

Mel recognized Varamyr's presence once before in Orell's eagle when she burned him out and sent Varamyr screaming back into his own body.  So I think it's possible he sees Mel once again in Thistle even though Mel doesn't understand who she is seeing and thinks it's Jon who is wolf-man-wolf.

In part 3, David talks about wights fully transforming into fire wights and I think that is the end state.  I'm not in agreement that there is no entity called R'hllor wheter he is a god or god-like in his powers.  She insists that he is real and male.  Jaqen H'gar backs that up with his oath to Him of Fire.

During MMD's ritual to raise Drogo, Dany sees the man wreathed in flame, one of the old powers. Ths certainly sounds like the untimate state of a fire wight or high priest.

It may also be that R'Hllor comes to Dany in her dreams disguised as a dragon, particularly during her own transformation bathed in holy/spiritual fire when she wakes the dragon. 

[Melifeather]

George RR Martin's birthday happens to fall on my book club's third Tuesday of the month in September this year. We each get to suggest books and I've asked the librarian if I could assign the book for August or September so that we either discuss or get assigned one of his novels on his birthday. I was reviewing A Game of Thrones to see if I thought the other ladies would enjoy reading such a book, because this group doesn't typically enjoy fantasy. We read Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro a few months back. I really enjoyed it, but I was probably the only one. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend. The story is told through the POV of a solar-powered robot named Klara.

Anyways, long story short, I noticed in the second chapter which is a Catelyn POV that:

Quote

 

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. "The heart tree," Ned called it. The weirwood's bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle's granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea. 

In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch. Up here it was different. Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face. 

 

Which made me wonder...

The heart tree at Winterfell has Bran's face. When it was "brooding" over the pool in the passage above, it was probably Bloodraven's face. Does that mean that the other castles in the north have the faces of other greenseers? As Hodor, Bran explored the cave of skulls and found a chamber full of singers, enthroned like Bloodraven with roots woven under, through, and around their bodies. Is it possible that they are the greenseers that see though the other heart trees in the various norther houses?

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Bran ate with Summer and his pack, as a wolf. As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air. As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. "Hodor," Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit.

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Also interesting - I do like new ideas:

Fire Others (Melisandre's Secrets 2) - YouTube

The idea that Mel is slowly transorming into a full fire wight ; that she consumes fire and the use of fire magic advances her transformation is on point.  This passage seems to support this idea:

This is also the scene where she is extending her magic to Stannis's sword, the great horn and Mance's glamor as well as Rattleshirt's glamor.  She is overextended and the ruby draws more fire to support themagic but she is almost consumed by it.

It's also interesting that Moqorro says the fiery hands burn out and must be replaced.  So Mel must sustain herself in some way or burn out.  I'm guessing that she consumes the life force of those she burns in her fires and this is how R'hllor 'sustains' her.. Children have the most life force to use. 

If she is consuming the life force of those she burns, that is definately something to keep secret. 

It's also worth noting that Thoros is using his own life force when he brings Beric back to life but there is a limit that will be the end of him.  So he is not replenishing his life force through fire consumption.

The notion that there are many form of shadowbinding including the animation of ice wights, Coldhands etc; seems to support the idea that as a shadowbinder; Melisabdre has the ability to see Varamyr through Thistles eyes.  He says "She sees me." and as a warg he has the ability to recognize another's presence. 

 

I'm very much inclined to go along with this one, which is very much in line with the way Heresy has been moving in trying to figure out what's really going on. My problem with R+L=J has all along been not with the simple equation itself, which might be true, but with its significance. All along, there has been an assumption by most believers that this story is all about Jon Snow being revealed as the son of Rhaegar and identified by Mel as Azor Ahai the champion of Light [and Fire] who will save the day. [after all the Mummers said so] Yet this suggestion anent the true nature of Mel is entirely consistent with the clues we've been given as to the consuming horrors to come from Fire.

It is possible that R+L=J is true and that this may be significant in restoring some kind of balance between Ice and Fire, but that balance will not be brought about by Azor Ahai, but by her [?] destruction 

[LynnS]

20 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Which made me wonder...

The heart tree at Winterfell has Bran's face. When it was "brooding" over the pool in the passage above, it was probably Bloodraven's face. Does that mean that the other castles in the north have the faces of other greenseers? As Hodor, Bran explored the cave of skulls and found a chamber full of singers, enthroned like Bloodraven with roots woven under, through, and around their bodies. Is it possible that they are the greenseers that see though the other heart trees in the various norther houses?

I was listening to In Deep Geek's podcast on the old gods, weirwoods, etc where he discusses the faces at 18 min:

The Weirwood trees and the Old Gods: History and Lore - livestream - YouTube

I'm not sure that the Winterfell Tree actually has Bran's or Bloodraven's face carved into it.  It may be that the face takes on the charateristics of whichever GSeer is using it and someone who is sensitive enough may notice a certain expression or appearance.  I'm thinking of Theon who seems to be on the verge of lifting the veil between worlds in The Prince of Winterfell chapter.  Nobody else describes the tree as laughing or appearing somber.  These are distincly Theon's impressions.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

"Skinchanger?" said Ebben grimly, looking at the Halfhand. Does he mean the eagle? Jon wondered. Or me? Skinchangers and wargs belonged in Old Nan's stories, not in the world he had lived in all his life. Yet here, in this strange bleak wilderness of rock and ice, it was not hard to believe.

"The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?"

 

The trees have eyes again meaning that they are once again being used to watch the world.  That suggests that not all weirwoods have a GSeer attached to the roots of that tree.  But we know that Bran can move his consciousness from one tree to another.  BR tells him the trees are doors or portals that he can use.  

Going down into the trees, into the roots suggests that te trees are connected through their root system. So potentially Bran and Bloodraven can go anywhere using the roots.  

Are there other Gseers besides Brand and BR?  It would seem so given the COTF enthroned in roots that Bran sees.  BR also says the dreamers are calling to him at one point.  Dreamers = GSeers.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Yet this suggestion anent the true nature of Mel is entirely consistent with the clues we've been given as to the consuming horrors to come from Fire.

Indeed!  I'm very suspicious of Mel's reasons for wanting Edric Storm for her fires.  I think this had more to do with repleneshing her own power than waking the dragon.  This is just the argument she uses to persuade Stannis.  I'm guessing this is the raison d'etre for wanting Shireen for her fires as well as Mance's son.  That doesn't mean that she wouldn't use Gilly's son in a pinch.  Infants stink of life to quote Gilly.  We could also consider Aemon to be a kind of holy man or holy blood and not just blood of the dragon or royal blood.  .

I think wants to charge up her batteries in anticipation of the fight to come.  So she can creat shadow monsters.   I think she has also discovered that the Wall can also be used to amplify her powers,  She's tooling up.

 

[LynnS]

It's strange that Benerro thinks Dany is Azor Ahai reborn while Mel doesn't think of Dany at all.  Although she must know about the dragons.  She thinks AA is yet to be reborn or made in fire and she has a part to play in it.  I think Moqorro refers to Dany as the chosen one.

The idea that one is chosen by the gods comes up in Bran's POV as well:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

This Starks kids have all been chosen for some purpose.  It may be that Dany is also chosen for a purpose - to be the mother of dragons.

Melisandre thinks that Stannis has been chosen by R'Hllor to be the warrior of fire:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord's chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!" Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. "You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R'hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again. I shall leave you here to think on all that I have told you. And because R'hllor is the source of all good, I shall leave the torch as well."

 

I think Mel also believes she is a chosen one.

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

There is certainly more than one chosen one.  Stannis might yet be turned into a fire wight and/or Jon.  Although I prefer Jon as the ice dragon in the story.

[LynnS]

Discussion about AGOT by Robert (InDeepGeek) and Aziz (History of Westeros):

Two of my favorite podcasters. 

Edit:  Great discussion!   My pick for who will end up on the Iron Throne as foreshadowed on AGOT:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

[alienarea]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:26 AM, LynnS said:

Discussion about AGOT by Robert (InDeepGeek) and Aziz (History of Westeros):

Two of my favorite podcasters. 

Edit:  Great discussion!   My pick for who will end up on the Iron Throne as foreshadowed on AGOT:

 

No, please. Tyrion should have died books ago.

If the series ever continues, I'm most curious about (f)Aegon's fate.

I hope for him to take KL, and later Daenerys burning the city with him on the Iron Throne.

[Black Crow]

GRRM Notablog April 29 [status 'busy'] :

THE WINDS OF WINTER is going to be a big book.   The way it is going, it could be bigger than A STORM OF STORMS or A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, the longest books in the series to date.   I do usually cut and trim once I finish, but I need to finish first.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM Notablog April 29 [status 'busy'] :

THE WINDS OF WINTER is going to be a big book.   The way it is going, it could be bigger than A STORM OF STORMS or A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, the longest books in the series to date.   I do usually cut and trim once I finish, but I need to finish first.

This is actually what I’ve suspected and really shouldn’t be a surprise. Wasn’t Dance supposed to be the second book in a trilogy? 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM Notablog April 29 [status 'busy'] :

THE WINDS OF WINTER is going to be a big book.   The way it is going, it could be bigger than A STORM OF STORMS or A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, the longest books in the series to date.   I do usually cut and trim once I finish, but I need to finish first.

Oh WOW!   I feel better all of a sudden.

[Black Crow]

At least he's still working 

[Black Crow]

GRRM: "THE WINDS OF WINTER is going to be a big book. The way it is going, it could be bigger than A STORM OF STORMS [SIC] or A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, the longest books in the series to date. I do usually cut and trim once I finish, but I need to finish first."

So what are we to make of this?

The immediate point that occurs to me is that there's something we don't know about in there. A book as big as he seems to think it is cannot simply be a space filler.

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS ends with a number of issues.

fAegon [and is he really a fake] evidently invades Westeros in TWoW. How far does he get and does he succeed in overthrowing the Lannisters. GRRM as I recall said something about multiple individuals warming their bums on the Iron Throne, so its possible and there will undoubtedly be collaterell damage

There is a crisis looming out east with the battle of Meereen which appears to tie in with Danaerys the Dragonlord being set up with the Dothraki. This is likely to see her ending up victorious and coming west with a massive army. Question is, how far does she get before close of the book - after all, win or lose Aegon is going to ensure Westeros is all but indefensible when she tools up.

And there are the Starks of course. Jon is down, but not out. Bran and Sansa both have potential, but how is this going to play out?

Ultimately, I think that the conflict in A DREAM OF SPRING will not be the looked for triumph of Azor Ahai but will be the battle between the Starks [ICE] and the Targaryens [FIRE]. How much of this will be set up in the THE WINDS OF WINTER? We're given some clues as to where its going in the released chapters, but those story lines are very early on and not going to be enough by themselves for the promised "big book". What else is in there

 

 

 

[Melifeather]

Personally I think Young Griff really is Aegon, that Varys did perform a baby swap and kept the child safe. Furthermore I think Rhaella knew it - even planned it with Varys and Elia - and is the true identity of Septa Lemore who is said to be over 40 years old. Septa Lemore cannot be Lyanna nor Ashara as these two should only be in their 30's in 300AC. 

Arianne Martell is on her way to propose a marriage match to Young Griff. This is a reversal of when Nymeria of the Rhyonar intermarried with Dorne. Whether Young Griff accepts the marriage or not, either way it will signal the unraveling of Dorne. 

Of course Young Griff probably should have tried to ally himself with Daenerys, but Tyrion persuaded him that he had the better claim and to press forward towards Westeros. How can a Targaryen hope to recapture the throne and hold it without dragons? A marriage alliance with Dorne may look the wise choice after all, especially considering GRRM said Dorne's military strength was about the same as the North and the Vale. Not sure if he meant combined or individually.

I remain unconvinced that Daenerys intends to come to Westeros. She may bind the Dothraki to her, but I think she'd rather destroy her enemies in Meereen, and once she arrives she'll see Victarion Greyjoy there too and take him out as well. If Euron was counting on Victarion bringing him a dragon queen, he's got another thing coming.

Yes, I agree this is ultimately a song of Ice and Fire, but I don't believe it'll be another clash between the two nor will one destroy the other. I think it'll be more about putting things back in their place and undoing the mistakes of the past. Fire needs to remain in the east and Ice needs to stay in the west. If either is to be destroyed it needs to be done by the people that live in/on each respective continent.

I'm really hoping GRRM has enough to finish two books, because the Dream of Spring only needs to be a thawing of winter, correct?

[Black Crow]

22 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I'm really hoping GRRM has enough to finish two books, because the Dream of Spring only needs to be a thawing of winter, correct?

Ah well, that's why I'm wondering why TWoW is so large [and as yet unfinished]. There's something more in it. The scenarios you outline, while plausible, are only going to be a small bit of what must e a larger picture if TWoW is BIG and yet only the prelude to a last act he hasn't revealed yet

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS ends with a number of issues.

This is a good podcast on where we are going into TWOW.  Many points for discussion.

 

[Black Crow]

54 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

 

I remain unconvinced that Daenerys intends to come to Westeros. She may bind the Dothraki to her, but I think she'd rather destroy her enemies in Meereen, and once she arrives she'll see Victarion Greyjoy there too and take him out as well. If Euron was counting on Victarion bringing him a dragon queen, he's got another thing coming.

 

I can remember a few years back that a believer in R+L=J predicted that Jon was going to take the Iron Throne and that Daenerys wasn't going to be a problem because she would probably die before getting to Westeros so its not a new idea, but I still feel that there's a lot as yet unhinted at going to happen in this "big book"

 

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Yes, I agree this is ultimately a song of Ice and Fire, but I don't believe it'll be another clash between the two nor will one destroy the other.

I too agree. Ever since Mel the Unreliable turned up we've been fed the line that Light and Fire need to destroy the Ice and Dark [ideally in a big battle led by Azor Ahai riding dragons. There may indeed be a clash but not an apocalyptic battle and again I think that the "big book" may be setting this up

[LynnS]

I'm not sure that Dany will stay in Essos but I don't expect her to make a move until the end of TWOW.  I've heard it described as an invasion force the likes of which Westeros has never seen before.  With the Dothraki, Unsullied, Sell Sword companies and whomever else she picks up along the way.

I think TWOW will be two separate theaters of war and conflict with Dany in the Essos and Euron/Cersei versus Aegon in Westeros.  

Then there is the Wall/Winterfell, the wildlings, Others, Stannis/Melisandre etc. Jaimie/Brieene/ Lady Stoneheart and of course whatever Arya and Rickon get up to.  Not to mention Sansa and Littlefinger.

That's a lot of stuff to be going on all at once.  So yes I can see it being a huge book.

Martin has to set up Bran, the Isle of faces and the Green Men.  Howland Reed.

I think it will be jam packed and probably tipping over into the horror genre on a number of fronts.

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

Martin has to set up Bran, the Isle of faces and the Green Men.  Howland Reed.

 

I'm inclined to think that Bran, the Isle of Faces, the Green Men - and Icy Jon and the rest of the Starks will wait for the Dream of Spring to clear up the mess resulting from Winds