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Heresy 242 The Other Starks


Black Crow

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm inclined to think that Bran, the Isle of Faces, the Green Men - and Icy Jon and the rest of the Starks will wait for the Dream of Spring to clear up the mess resulting from Winds

Probably. I'm not sure there will be a Kings Landing or an IT to claim. There is more to do on the supernatural aspects of the story.  It's not going to be boring.:D  In the meantime, imaginations run wild!

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45 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Probably. I'm not sure there will be a Kings Landing or an IT to claim. There is more to do on the supernatural aspects of the story.  It's not going to be boring.:D  In the meantime, imaginations run wild!

Not least here...:D

I think you're right about the "supernatural" aspects of the story. At the very simplest, if there is a solution its going to take more than a hero with a sword - or even an army - to sort it out

I still reckon that in simple story-telling terms, if there are to be no more extensions to the overall story, the "big book" needs to be building to a shocking climax before Spring sorts it out, which is why I'm inclined to wonder what's in Winds beyond continuing [plod, plod, plod] the story lines we already know about

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Not least here...:D

Oh, not here, never here.  LOL

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think you're right about the "supernatural" aspects of the story. At the very simplest, if there is a solution its going to take more than a hero with a sword - or even an army - to sort it out

You know, I never read the back cover of aGoT untill I heard it mentioned on a podcast:

Quote

Long ago, in a time forgotten, a preternatural event threw the seasons out of balance.  In a land where summers can last decades and winters a lifetime, trouble is brewing.  The cold is returning, and in the frozen wastes to the North of Winterfell, sinister and supernatural forces are amssing beyond the kingdom's protective Wall.  At the center of the conflict lie the Starks of Winterfell, a family as harsh and unyielding as the lands they were born to.  

It goes on, but this is the part we ar finally getting to in the next book. I don't think there is going to be any plodding at this point given the perilous cliffhangers we were left with at the end of Dance.

What is new?  Sam at the Citadel, the sphynx of the riddle, where we hope to get some answers to the most vexing questions. 

Characters on the periphery like Euron, Marwyn, Qyburn will be fleshed out and take on a more sinister role.

Will Victarion get his hands on a dragon?  Will that give him control of Meereen?

What will happen to the Damphair?  I expect horrors to ramp up, Euron is just getting started.

What was the preternatural event that sundered the seasons?

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43 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What was the preternatural event that sundered the seasons?

Ultimately, I think that this is what A Dream of Spring will revolve around. The "big book" will include various parties jockeying around the throne, but ultimately "all is vanity" and the truth or otherwise of R+L=J will fade because its not what this is about

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41 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ultimately, I think that this is what A Dream of Spring will revolve around. The "big book" will include various parties jockeying around the throne, but ultimately "all is vanity" and the truth or otherwise of R+L=J will fade because its not what this is about

If RLJ is true, I'm holding out for Jon to be the ice dragon of the story!  :D

I'm very curious about Sam at the Citadel and what he will discover.  I'm holding out for the FM to aid Sam and Sarella in escaping Euron's clutches.  Will Sam discover the true nature of the cracked horn and how to repair it?  He should grab a book of runes translation on the way out.  And he should take Sarella and some glass candles with him to the Wall.  Will they stop at Starfall and give warning about Euron.  Will Sam learn anything about Jon there?  What happened to Gilly and the baby?  Did Marwyn take them with him?   Who will be the Marwyn POV?

I think Howland will make an appearance in the next book but not necessaily as Howland.  I'll be on the look-out for that with all the wild speculation that I can muster.  I'll be watching what happens with the Mad Mouse closely.

I'm holding out for Rickon as Shaggy Dog to join Nymeria's pack in the Battle of the Wolves.  I'd very much like Rickon to warg Ramsey's dogs and tear him a new one. 

I'm not sure if the Green Men have started appearing in the story or not.  But I'm very suspicious of anyone with feet like gnarled tree roots influencing events.

As for Bran, I sure hope he makes Theon his prophet..

 

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You know what would be really great? If the prologue would be a scene from the past - namely Lyanna’s abduction and death as witnessed by Bran through the trees. It would be a massive explosion that would blow reader’s minds.

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7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You know what would be really great? If the prologue would be a scene from the past - namely Lyanna’s abduction and death as witnessed by Bran through the trees. It would be a massive explosion that would blow reader’s minds.

I heard it would be Jeyne Westerling.  I can't say I'm all that excited about it if she is written off.  But maybe another complication in the Stark succession later on..

I'm not counting on Sam accidently coming across a marriage license at the Citadel. It would be more interesting to me if Sam crosses paths with Ned Dayne and learns something about Jon and Arya from him.

Meera still hasn't told Bran the wolf maid's sad story.  She was keeping it for another time.

Ned's ghost told Bran something deeply disturbing about Jon.  Perhaps Bran will remember.

I think we will get bits and pieces from different POV's, but not the whole thing. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I heard it would be Jeyne Westerling.  I can't say I'm all that excited about it if she is written off.  But maybe another complication in the Stark succession later on..

I've read discussion of this as well, and it makes sense. The prologue person always dies and I believe there was a chapter released, but it may be fan fiction for all we know. But the one important thing regarding Jeyne Westerling is that she is actually reprising a role in one of the repeated historical time loops - one where there is a reversal. 

Jeyne is described as having long curly chestnut hair, a heart shaped face, and doe-like brown eyes. Shy and pretty, slender and willowy with good hips, but according to Jaime, not someone to lose a kingdom over. She's from a very old house descended from First Men, founded by merchants, but now poor with failed gold mines. Jeyne has much in common on paper with Ashara Dayne, except that her parents are still living and she got to marry her Stark.

Its my opinion that Jeyne is reprising the role of Ashara, but with reversed parallels. And since I believe Ashara is still alive, Jeyne will die and most likely by jumping or being pushed from a tower. Furthermore, since I also believe that Jon Snow is Ashara's son, Jeyne is pregnant, but whether or not she gives birth remains to be seen. And if she does manage to give birth her child will mirror Jon Snow.

We'll know if its an inversion chapter if it gets a title.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Ned's ghost told Bran something deeply disturbing about Jon.  Perhaps Bran will remember.

I don't remember exactly what was said in that passage, but the wording could be important

What strikes me about it, is why Lord Eddard's ghost would tell Bran something - which he then forgot

If, as is often assumed in another place, Lord Eddard told Bran that Jon was Lyanna's son. What difference is that going to make to Bran? Why is it important for Bran to know? If, in tandem or instead of that, Eddard told Bran that Jon was Rhaegar's son, what difference will that make for Bran, really?

This is Lord Eddard Stark, of Winterfell speaking

Was it a warning about Jon? And Winter. Bran has already been warned by the Crow about Winter. Winter is coming. Is that why Lord Eddard spoke to Bran about Jon?

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30 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't remember exactly what was said in that passage, but the wording could be important

This is was Bran recalls:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

More disturbing than the crow dreams which usually frighten him the most.

30 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

What strikes me about it, is why Lord Eddard's ghost would tell Bran something - which he then forgot

If, as is often assumed in another place, Lord Eddard told Bran that Jon was Lyanna's son. What difference is that going to make to Bran? Why is it important for Bran to know? If, in tandem or instead of that, Eddard told Bran that Jon was Rhaegar's son, what difference will that make for Bran, really?

This is Lord Eddard Stark, of Winterfell speaking

Was it a warning about Jon? And Winter. Bran has already been warned by the Crow about Winter. Winter is coming. Is that why Lord Eddard spoke to Bran about Jon?

I'm inclined to think it was a warning of some kind about Jon rather than something about his parents.  Bran accepts that Ned is Jon's father.  If he was told that Lyanna was Jon's mother, that would be disturbing in that context..

What would Ned's ghost know about Jon that he must warn Bran about unless it involves prophecy of some kind.  Or Ned has become part of the weirnet and has access to the future in some way.  I can accept that Bran has this connection with the weirnet even now.  What surprises me is that Rickon also had a visit from the crow.

Is it really Ned who came to them or BR disguised as Ned?  Arya also hears Ned's voice in front of the Harrenhal weirwood and Jon dreams of Ned watching him through the Winterfell weirwood.

I have some new thoughts about the horn of winter which I posted on another thread:

Tormund wears a metal band incised with runes on his arm.  Or er, member, if you believe Tall Taker.  This metal band was removed from Joramund's Horn of Winter to make sure it couldn't be winded until needed.  The secret of which has been passed down through Joramund's male line to Tormund.  Which is why he doesn't give up the ring to Jon.

Mance and Tormund have been looking for the horn to replace the ring, but don't find it.  Part of Mance's own mission that Melisandre aludes to is searching the crypts of Winterfell for the horn.

The rim of the horn is chipped, damage that likely occurred when the ring was removed. It is also cracked. Replacing the ring will compress the horn and seal the crack. 

The metal band that remains on the ring is also incised with runes, but Sam will only be able to translate a part of the puzzle at the Citadel. 

Euron will not get his hands on the horn and bring down the Wall because the horn loses it's magic without the ring in Tormund's possession.  It's just a broken horn.

The horn does not bring down The Wall.  It's been blown before and the Wall is still standing.

It wakes giants in the earth. Here's the foil:  it brings down the wards that keeps the ghosts of the Kings of Winter locked in stone and releases them.  They are bound to the horn.

  Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

They're not wearing skins, Jon realized. That's hair. Shaggy pelts covered their bodies, thick below the waist, sparser above. The stink that came off them was choking, but perhaps that was the mammoths. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. He looked for great swords ten feet long, but saw only clubs. Most were just the limbs of dead trees, some still trailing shattered branches. A few had stone balls lashed to the ends to make colossal mauls. The song never says if the horn can put them back to sleep.

I don't know who will blow the horn of winter- Sam, Tormund or Jon, but I suspect these ghosts can fashion or will have bodies fashioned out of ice and snow and cold like the White Walkers.  I'm also guessing that to command them, Jon will need the original crown of the Kings of Winter and the original sword Ice from the crypts.

If this is true, it's intriguiung to think that Joramund blew the horn that woke them and the Stark of Winterfell ruled them in the fight against the Night King and Corpse Queen.  The analog for that in our story seems to be the Eldrich horror known as Euron and his undead/drowned wife, Cersei.  Another of Qyburn's experiments because you just know he's not going to stop with Robert Strong.  

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The disturbing thing Ned told Bran was that he allowed Robert to believe that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, gave up the woman he loved, and refused Jon his birthright as heir, in favor of a marriage alliance that secured Robert's throne. The whole conquest was built on lies. What could be more disturbing than that?

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26 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The disturbing thing Ned told Bran was that he allowed Robert to believe that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, gave up the woman he loved, and refused Jon his birthright as heir, in favor of a marriage alliance that secured Robert's throne. The whole conquest was built on lies. What could be more disturbing than that?

The crow does warn Bran that winter is coming and this is why he must live.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. AGOT - Bran III.

The terrible knowledge that Bran also doesn't seem to remember.  So some terrible knowledge relating to Jon, winter and the Starks.

Jon might be reprising the role of Aragorn and the Army of the Dead from LOTR in the fight against Saruman/Sauron (Euron/Blood Eye).  Dead Starks have an obligation to fight for the current King of Winter when called by the horn from the frozen hell reserved for Starks (crypts).   Jon will be an undead son of Winterfell regardless of his parentage and bound by the same obligation..  

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Going back to waking giants in the earth; Mance and Tormund are looking for the horn in the wrong place.  Literally in the graves of giants where they do find a great horn.  Melisandre tries to FOB it off as the Horn of Winter, part of her self promotion and propaganda.  But the horn is probably mammoth tusk.  So I think part of Mance's plan was to search the Stark graves (crypts) for the horn.  Since the horn is actually found and re-buried North of the Wall, ; I'll go with somone who knew where Joramund was actually buried.  Bloodraven or Bran and of course Coldhands seems a likely pair of legs to find it and hide where Ghost will lead Jon.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The crow does warn Bran that winter is coming and this is why he must live.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. AGOT - Bran III.

The terrible knowledge that Bran also doesn't seem to remember.  So some terrible knowledge relating to Jon, winter and the Starks.

Jon might be reprising the role of Aragorn and the Army of the Dead from LOTR in the fight against Saruman/Sauron (Euron/Blood Eye).  Dead Starks have an obligation to fight for the current King of Winter when called by the horn from the frozen hell reserved for Starks (crypts).   Jon will be an undead son of Winterfell regardless of his parentage and bound by the same obligation..  

It's something like that I'm thinking. Certainly not a "Jon is the sone of Rhaegar and destined to sit on the tin throne

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33 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It's something like that I'm thinking. Certainly not a "Jon is the sone of Rhaegar and destined to sit on the tin throne

I'm going for full on ice dragon for Jon and the sword of Ice as well as the sword of fire. We can always change our minds. :D

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I'm thinking the Kings of Winter will turn out to be GRRM's version of frost giants.  Possibly even literally giants since he likes to dial things up.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

But most came on. Behind them was only cold and death. Ahead was hope. They came on, clutching their scraps of wood until the time came to feed them to the flames. R'hllor was a jealous deity, ever hungry. So the new god devoured the corpse of the old, and cast gigantic shadows of Stannis and Melisandre upon the Wall, black against the ruddy red reflections on the ice.

 
Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

 

Will the shadows of the Kings of Winter be any less terrible and will their icy forms be cast from giant shadows?

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