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Heresy 242 The Other Starks


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If you haven't seen Raised by Wolves HBO series, you are missing out.  I had no idea what is was about, but hey, Ridley Scott.  So yes, androids, humans and aliens on a new world.  It was such a surprise and I'm hooked.  Here's hoping House of Dragons will be equally surprising.  One of the benefits of knowing nothing in advance. :D  

The theology of Raised by Wolves is based on Mithraism and surprise, Mithra is the bringer of light, the thousand ears and eyes, truth, justice and oathkeeping; the mediator between men and god is the sun god of Zoroastrianism. 

So perhaps this is the model GRRM is using for Light Bringer/AA.  Or something like it.

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This thought of eternal struggle and combat with an evil Other is hardly new, however, according to Zarathustra, or Zoroaster, the ancient Iranian prophet whose teachings developed into Zoroastrianism, this battle is fought within each person. In his writings, Zoroaster sees the human condition as the mental struggle between asha (truth) and druj (lie), and while there is only one God, human beings are given a right of choice, to follow principles of one or the other, to embrace the spirit of Spenta Mainyu or his contesting force.

Because of free will, the choices people take as a consequence will determine either they are the helpers of Ahura Mazda or helpers of Angra Mainyu, within them as well as the world as a whole.

And when all of mankind chooses truth, order, and justice over falsehood and disorder, evil will finally be defeated and Paradise on earth will be realized. Thus clearly saying that every man could essentially be an Azor Ahai, if only one chooses to be.

George R. R. Martin hinted that the Lord of Light in "Game of Thrones" based on ancient Zoroastrianism of Persia - The Vintage News

Mithra: The Pagan Christ - Stellar House Publishing 

 

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

If you haven't seen Raised by Wolves HBO series, you are missing out.  I had no idea what is was about, but hey, Ridley Scott.  So yes, androids, humans and aliens on a new world.  It was such a surprise and I'm hooked.  Here's hoping House of Dragons will be equally surprising.  One of the benefits of knowing nothing in advance. :D  

The theology of Raised by Wolves is based on Mithraism and surprise, Mithra is the bringer of light, the thousand ears and eyes, truth, justice and oathkeeping; the mediator between men and god is the sun god of Zoroastrianism. 

So perhaps this is the model GRRM is using for Light Bringer/AA.  Or something like it.

George R. R. Martin hinted that the Lord of Light in "Game of Thrones" based on ancient Zoroastrianism of Persia - The Vintage News

Mithra: The Pagan Christ - Stellar House Publishing 

 

I may have to subscribe to HBO Go again...

I've brought up Zeitgeist before and the fact that Christ is just one more sun god in a long line of many. I don't know why humans have created the concept of gods, but it makes sense that a supreme being would be an analog of the sun as creator. It gives everything on our planet life. Our brains are always trying to find answers and we develop beliefs based on what makes sense to us. But I acknowledge that maybe all of these ancient religions have common roots in mostly forgotten truths, sort of like how Winterfell has forgotten what the north remembers...

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I may have to subscribe to HBO Go again...

Yup.  I wish I could watch it with you, just to see your reaction.  My eyes fell out of my head a few times.

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15 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yup.  I wish I could watch it with you, just to see your reaction.  My eyes fell out of my head a few times.

I’m reading The Last Kingdom series by Bernard Cornwell. I’m on book 4 of like 13 and he’s still writing. It’s historical fiction based in late 880’s England with King Alfred of Wessex, King Guthrum of East Anglia, and the fictional 1st person narration of Uhtred son of Uhtred, Lord of Bebbanburg. There are oodles of historic references that GRRM must have pulled from this same era. 
 

Cornwell says he can write a book every six months. He should go help George.

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12 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I’m reading The Last Kingdom series by Bernard Cornwell. I’m on book 4 of like 13 and he’s still writing. It’s historical fiction based in late 880’s England with King Alfred of Wessex, King Guthrum of East Anglia, and the fictional 1st person narration of Uhtred son of Uhtred, Lord of Bebbenberg. There are oodles of historic references that GRRM must have pulled from this same era. 

OK, that's on my list now.  I love that stuff.  I'm reading a biography of Marie Antionette by Antonia Fraser.  It's one book.

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25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

OK, that's on my list now.  I love that stuff.  I'm reading a biography of Marie Antionette by Antonia Fraser.  It's one book.

There’s a Netflix series based on these books as well. The actor that plays Uhtred is very attractive. May as well give yourself a visual since he’s on every page.

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7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

There’s a Netflix series based on these books as well. The actor that plays Uhtred is very attractive. May as well give yourself a visual since he’s on every page.

I'm waiting for the dvd release.  Travis Fimmel has a leading role in Raised by Wolves but he keeps channeling Ragnar.

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31 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

There’s a Netflix series based on these books as well. The actor that plays Uhtred is very attractive. May as well give yourself a visual since he’s on every page.

Alexander Dreymon is a German actor that uses a particular cadence when speaking as Uhtred. At first I thought it sounded very forced, but forgave him because he's so very handsome. But when I started reading the books just a few weeks ago, I could hear the actor while I read and it fits the character and the writing very well.

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24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm waiting for the dvd release.  Travis Fimmel has a leading role in Raised by Wolves but he keeps channeling Ragnar.

I saw that! He's another very attractive man. I'd watch just to see his face! hahaha

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I saw that! He's another very attractive man. I'd watch just to see his face! hahaha

LOL! I'm so tempted to show you some of the eye popping moments but I just can't.  When I watch this stuff with my sister, she constantly tests my resolve not to tell her what will happen.  She keeps making guesses and looking at me for any hint of confirmation.  My face is a blank and my lips are sealed..

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On 5/9/2022 at 9:12 AM, LynnS said:

If you haven't seen Raised by Wolves HBO series, you are missing out.  I had no idea what is was about, but hey, Ridley Scott.  So yes, androids, humans and aliens on a new world.  It was such a surprise and I'm hooked.  Here's hoping House of Dragons will be equally surprising.  One of the benefits of knowing nothing in advance. :D  

The theology of Raised by Wolves is based on Mithraism and surprise, Mithra is the bringer of light, the thousand ears and eyes, truth, justice and oathkeeping; the mediator between men and god is the sun god of Zoroastrianism. 

So perhaps this is the model GRRM is using for Light Bringer/AA.  Or something like it.

George R. R. Martin hinted that the Lord of Light in "Game of Thrones" based on ancient Zoroastrianism of Persia - The Vintage News

Mithra: The Pagan Christ - Stellar House Publishing 

There is evidence that the Romans brought the cult of Mithras to Hadrian’s Wall.  And Hadrian’s Wall is obviously one of the biggest inspirations behind GRRM’s Wall.  

A poster a while back posited his theory that Jon Snow was an actual representation of Lightbringer which in turn was inspired by the mythology surrounding Mithras and Mithras’ sword.  

Of course the theory kind of ignored the fact that the most obvious Mithras related symbolism was found in Sam’s backstory not Jon’s.  

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17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course the theory kind of ignored the fact that the most obvious Mithras related symbolism was found in Sam’s backstory not Jon’s.  

It was? Do tell. 

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3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It was? Do tell. 

One of the rites for priesthood in the cult of Mithras was the “taurobolium”.  It entailed the ritual bathing in the blood of a sacrificed bull.  

Sam goes through a similar ritual:

Quote

“One time,” Sam confided, his voice dropping from a whisper, “two men came to the castle, warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and made me bathe in the hot blood, but it didn’t make me brave as they’d promised. I got sick and retched. Father had them scourged.”

 

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8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

One of the rites for priesthood in the cult of Mithras was the “taurobolium”.  It entailed the ritual bathing in the blood of a sacrificed bull.  

Sam goes through a similar ritual:

Wow.  GRRM has sprinkled bits and pieces of mithraism, zoroastrianism and it's offsprings everywhere.  The most obvious being the red religion.  But also the Dothraki references to the sun moon and stars and ascending to the stars when you die.  The cults of Mithras were practiced in caves with wells linking it to the old gods. The warrior cult of the Faith also connects with seven planets and stars ascending or descending.

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It bears mentioning that the Saxons were in awe of the Roman technology and the structures that were still standing hundreds of years after they left and even felt a sense of loss that civilization had actually gone backward. The Saxons built their defenses with wood and earth because it was easier, but they may have also lacked the ability. There's an ancient Saxon poem titled The Ruin. It's an Anglo-Saxon poet being sad about the lost Roman culture. 

Along with Hadrian's wall, the Romans left stone/brick roads, stone villas, stone amphitheaters, stone city walls, Roman bathhouses, stone barracks and gatehouses, stone bridges including the famous Lunden (London) bridge, and wharf piling - not to mention assorted statues, vases, etc. 

The Roman occupation of England stretched from AD 55 to AD 410. The Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians began invading in waves around AD 450, and defeated much of the Welsh - Celtic Britons - many of which tried to defend their Romanized religion and civilization. The British isles weren't referred to as "England" until Alfred the Great of Wessex began his dream of a unified country under one king in the 9th century. A time when the Vikings had defeated the Saxon kingdoms - thus the inspiration behind the Bernard Cornwell Saxon Stories series that begins with The Last Kingdom. Wessex was the last Saxon kingdom to hold out against the Danes (Vikings).

This is the time period that was the inspiration for Westeros. Now that I think of it - it even mimics the name of Wessex. Hmm, I wonder who is/was our King Alfred?

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Adding to my thoughts above...

The wildlings are the Danes that have gone viking. In the Saxon Stories Uhtred, son of Uhtred of Bebbanburg also went by the name of Uhtred Ragnarson. He was a Saxon who was raised by Danes when Ragnar Ravnson killed Uhtred's father in battle. Uhtred was also not his birth name. His birth name was Osfred. He was his father's second son, but the eldest son Uhtred died in an earlier fight with the Danes. When Osfred became his father's heir, his father had him re-baptized and re-named Uhtred. 

Jon Snow is very much like Uhtred. He wasn't his father's heir until Robb Stark died and now it's assumed he may become legitimized (baptized) in order to inherit Winterfell. After Jon's father Ned died, Jon pretended to defect to the wildlings and lived among them. That's pretty much a direct parallel to Uhtred being raised by Danes. 

Uhtred takes an oath to King Alfred - again a direct parallel to Jon Snow to the Watch - and promises to defend the Saxon kingdoms against the Danes, aka the Northmen and threat from the North. Uhtred loves the viking Danes and knows their ways, but he takes his oaths very seriously. Even the Danes take oaths seriously, because they understand that an oath-breaker cannot be trusted. A man's word and reputation are everything.

Uhtred is very much a leader and dresses like a viking warlord. His wife Gisela emblazoned a giant white lightning bolt across the back of his large black cloak. The lightning bolt is a representation of Thor, because Uhtred keeps to the old gods and when he draws his longsword Serpent-Breath, he brings it down as quickly as lightning. The sword, forged by Ealdwulf, was so named, because of the way the iron swirled in the steel. These are again direct parallels. The Saxons sharing the old gods with the viking Danes, and the Stark sword Ice with its swirls. Uhtred wears a necklace of Thor's hammer around his neck too, and every time he kills a Dane he takes their necklace and adds the tiny hammers to the bottom of his cape which jingle like the Dothraki bells. 

King Alfred of Wessex was a Christian. In the Saxon Stories, Uhtred is his best warrior, but he doesn't trust him, because he isn't a Christian. The character is fictional, but the author said his family does have an ancestor named Uhtred and his family is also from Bebbanburg (Bamburg) in Northumbria. The play between old gods and new is a constant theme in both GRRM's and Corwell's story and the two authors are obviously drawing from the same sources. 

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Uhtred's badge (sigil) is even a wolf. It's on his flag, helmet, and shield. Hmm. The Last Kingdom was copyrited in 2004 whereas A Game of Thrones in 1991. GRRM wrote fantasy inspired by ancient Brittons, and it looks like Cornwell based Uhtred on Jon Snow's storyline and wove him into 9th century Wessex. He's basically the same character.

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So last week, the wife and I took a trip to New York.  While there, we took in the Broadway show, Hades Town, which is a retelling of the Orpheus story where he descends to Hades to try and free his beloved from the Underworld.  Anyway, the tale made me revisit an old theory I had vaguely developed concerning GRRM using inspiration from that tale in his own story.

Much of it is predicated on the idea that GRRM has intentionally woven some aspects of Persephone's tales within Lyanna.  A large number of posters have seen parallels with Lyanna's abduction and Persephone's abduction by Hades.  Where after her abduction, her mother Demeter, falls into a despair which brings on winter, and it's only when the other gods can negotiate with Hades that Persephone will be returned to her mother six months every year, does winter abate into spring and summer.

I think there is probably an intentional parallel with Lyanna's tale. The biggest problem with the parallel is that Rhaegar never really made a good stand in for Hades.  But Rhaegar does make a pretty good stand in for the musically talented, prophetic Orpheus.  And at the Harrenhal tourney there is a sneaky, neat parallel with the tale of Orpheus' descent into the Underworld.

In the Orpheus tale, Orpheus stands before Hades and Persephone and crafts a song trying to convince Hades to free his beloved, Eurydice, from the Underworld.  The tale moves Persephone to tears and she implores her husband to let Orpheus take Eurydice from Hades.

Similar imagery occurs at the Harrenhal tourney, where Rhaegar sings his sad song of lament to the various nobles, including Lyanna, our stand in for Persephone.  Whatever the tale is, it moves Lyanna to tears.

Now in the Orpheus tale, Hades relents under one condition.   Eurydice can follow Orpheus out of Hades, but if Orpheus looks back to make sure Eurydice is following behind him, he will lose her forever.

Interestingly enough, though Rhaegar dies, we have a lot of imagery and hints, that Danaerys takes over the role of Rhaegar in our story.  And, as Danaerys prepares her magical funeral pyre, one thought keeps entering her consciousness.  If she looks back she is lost.  It's a refrain that follows the character throughout her story.  If she looks back she is lost.

It's also the same thought that Dany had in her dragon dream where she transforms into a dragon.  That she is being chased and she knows that she can't look back or she is lost, so she keeps running through the Red Door and transforms into a dragon.

So if this is an intentional parallel that GRRM is making with Rhaegar and Dany, then it might give us a hint at what Rhaegar was so sorrowfully singing about.  The journey that Dany was on where she told herself she couldn't look back led to the rebirth of her dragons.  She literally brought the dragons back from the dead.  Just like Orpheus tried to do with Eurydice.

So I do wonder if that might reflect what Rhaegar was singing about as well.  That Rhaegar's song of loss dealt with the loss of dragons.

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Personally I view the tale that Meera told as more symbolic or even an allegory rather than a recounting of events. If it were a factual recounting, wouldn't Meera use actual names? Instead there are characters named wolf maid, quiet wolf, crannogman, a maid with purple eyes, etc. So the "sad song" doesn't have to be a literal song that was sung - rather it was a conversation between two people. I think Rhaegar came upon Robert making the moves on another woman and told Lyanna about it, and the news upset her.

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14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So last week, the wife and I took a trip to New York.  While there, we took in the Broadway show, Hades Town, which is a retelling of the Orpheus story where he descends to Hades to try and free his beloved from the Underworld.  Anyway, the tale made me revisit an old theory I had vaguely developed concerning GRRM using inspiration from that tale in his own story.

Much of it is predicated on the idea that GRRM has intentionally woven some aspects of Persephone's tales within Lyanna.  A large number of posters have seen parallels with Lyanna's abduction and Persephone's abduction by Hades.  Where after her abduction, her mother Demeter, falls into a despair which brings on winter, and it's only when the other gods can negotiate with Hades that Persephone will be returned to her mother six months every year, does winter abate into spring and summer.

I think there is probably an intentional parallel with Lyanna's tale. The biggest problem with the parallel is that Rhaegar never really made a good stand in for Hades.  But Rhaegar does make a pretty good stand in for the musically talented, prophetic Orpheus.  And at the Harrenhal tourney there is a sneaky, neat parallel with the tale of Orpheus' descent into the Underworld.

In the Orpheus tale, Orpheus stands before Hades and Persephone and crafts a song trying to convince Hades to free his beloved, Eurydice, from the Underworld.  The tale moves Persephone to tears and she implores her husband to let Orpheus take Eurydice from Hades.

Similar imagery occurs at the Harrenhal tourney, where Rhaegar sings his sad song of lament to the various nobles, including Lyanna, our stand in for Persephone.  Whatever the tale is, it moves Lyanna to tears.

Now in the Orpheus tale, Hades relents under one condition.   Eurydice can follow Orpheus out of Hades, but if Orpheus looks back to make sure Eurydice is following behind him, he will lose her forever.

Interestingly enough, though Rhaegar dies, we have a lot of imagery and hints, that Danaerys takes over the role of Rhaegar in our story.  And, as Danaerys prepares her magical funeral pyre, one thought keeps entering her consciousness.  If she looks back she is lost.  It's a refrain that follows the character throughout her story.  If she looks back she is lost.

It's also the same thought that Dany had in her dragon dream where she transforms into a dragon.  That she is being chased and she knows that she can't look back or she is lost, so she keeps running through the Red Door and transforms into a dragon.

So if this is an intentional parallel that GRRM is making with Rhaegar and Dany, then it might give us a hint at what Rhaegar was so sorrowfully singing about.  The journey that Dany was on where she told herself she couldn't look back led to the rebirth of her dragons.  She literally brought the dragons back from the dead.  Just like Orpheus tried to do with Eurydice.

So I do wonder if that might reflect what Rhaegar was singing about as well.  That Rhaegar's song of loss dealt with the loss of dragons.

Oh I do like this

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