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Heresy 242 The Other Starks


Black Crow

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17 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

My opinion on "who" Coldhands is changed when my understanding of the context changed. I DO think Coldhands is Benjen. Doesn't his scarf not only cover his neck, but partially cover the bottom of his face? 

Yes it covers his mouth.  The problem is that Martin has already told Anne Greoll that Benjen was not Coldhands.  

So on the manner of his death and who is responsible; who are "they"?

- The wights?  Do they really represent a danger to Coldhands since he is already dead and they are so clumsy?

- The White Walkers?  If he was killed bt the WWs, wouldn't he have blue eyes?

- The Wildlings?  Wouldn't they burn him rather than leave him to rise undead?

- Men of the Watch?   Although he recognizes Sam as a brother and protects him;  the traitorous NW are foes/enemies and he kills them.  Why?  

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

"Who were they? Wildlings?"

Meera turned the meat to cook the other side. Hodor was chewing and swallowing, muttering happily under his breath. Only Jojen seemed aware of what was happening as Coldhands turned his head to stare at Bran. "They were foes."

Men of the Night's Watch. "You killed them. You and the ravens. Their faces were all torn, and their eyes were gone." Coldhands did not deny it. "They were your brothers. I saw. The wolves had ripped their clothes up, but I could still tell. Their cloaks were black. Like your hands." Coldhands said nothing. "Who are you? Why are your hands black?"

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, we learned a couple of things: that he was killed long ago and he can't pass the ward.  We may never know his identity but I'm hoping he makes another appearance in a Jon POV and we learn more.

I would still like to place his undeath into a specific time frame.  I wonder how he was killed.  He wears a scarf over his mouth and his voice rattles.  Was his throat cut?  That sounds like a sacrifice.  We know the Night King was sacrificing to the Others.  Was he sacrificing men of the Watch; those he couldn't bind to his will?.

 

Maybe he is the sacrifice from Bran's dream? That would fit with "long ago" as the heart tree of Winterfell is small when the sacrifice takes place, and the throat of the sacrifice gots slit.

He might be the Stark who defeated the Barrow king.

And maybe that is why the Stark kings are warded in the crypts after the experiences with him?

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The problem is that Martin has already told Anne Greoll that Benjen was not Coldhands.

Yes. There is that. GRRM does love to hold his mysteries tightly to his chest and he doesn't want the reader to figure them out too easily. Is it possible that he lied, but with the understanding that he needed to rewrite in order to obscure what was so easily guess by his publisher?

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We've been discussing Coldhands for a long time now and are unlikely to come up with answers until [and if] GRRM provides something more.

However, that fact that there is a mystery; that he wanders around with his face covered and speaks in riddles, indicates that he is somebody whose identity is secret. In simple terms, if he was for example an anonymous follower of Bloodraven; say one of the Raven's Teeth, why conceal it. Why create a mystery ?

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53 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

We've been discussing Coldhands for a long time now and are unlikely to come up with answers until [and if] GRRM provides something more.

However, that fact that there is a mystery; that he wanders around with his face covered and speaks in riddles, indicates that he is somebody whose identity is secret. In simple terms, if he was for example an anonymous follower of Bloodraven; say one of the Raven's Teeth, why conceal it. Why create a mystery ?

It's steak with no sizzle if he just shows up and disappears never to be seen again.  It will be far more iteresting if he shows up in a Jon POV.  I know we have discussed this often without any revelations.  I'm still wondering when he was killed; lomg ago or long, long ago.  He could be a contemporary of Bloodravens but it would be far more interesting if he shed some light on the Night King and Night Fort.

He is significant in some way.  Why does he insist that Sam take an oath to Bran/Jojen/Coldhands; Greenseer/Green Dreamer and what, a Green Man? Gatekeeper?

I'd have to compare him to Beric Dondarrion as far as having a mission and the ability to reason.

He communicates with ravens and crows through knowledge that has been lost.  Once the birds could communicate with the First Men by 'speaking' rather than using them as couriers.   I suspect CH is communing with the COTF through the birds.  I don't thik this is the thousand eyes and one of Bloodraven.  His control of the Elk seems to link him to the powers of green men.

My guess is that he has been buried in a cave in the Frostfangs and releaed unknowingly by Mance.  I think Mance took the greathorn but left the small horn of winter not recognizing it for what it was.  And I think the stache of dragonglass was also left in the grave. 

Has he been animated all this time waiting in the grave? Or was he animated after being uncovered by Mance?  If BR says you cannot bring back the dead; who was it that brought CH back from the dead? Was he brought back simply as a gurdian for Sam and Bran or because of his knowledge of the Black Gate. dragonglass, the horn of winter and his green man abilities?

I think that makes him older than the rangers who were Raven's Teeth.  But when?  It's the story of the Night King that seems to be playing out again in some manner.

I still question whether the NK was the 13th LC at the beginning of the Wall or if he was the 13th LC of the Night Fort when the Andals arrived at the Wall, much later.

 

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We've been discussing Coldhands for a long time now and are unlikely to come up with answers until [and if] GRRM provides something more.

However, that fact that there is a mystery; that he wanders around with his face covered and speaks in riddles, indicates that he is somebody whose identity is secret. In simple terms, if he was for example an anonymous follower of Bloodraven; say one of the Raven's Teeth, why conceal it. Why create a mystery ?

my assumption is that Coldhands is either 1.Undead-Benjen (it does sound like Martin to say Undead-Benjen is not Benjen... just as Stoneheart isn't exactly Catelyn) .. and 2.he is someone ancient who Bran would ultimately see in his visions and could have been recognizable by him had he not concealed his face. why secrecy ? I have no idea but I guess he will provide us with some answers if he ever appears again in a Bran or Jon chapter. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm inclined to suspect someone more recent than a figure from the distant path, however knowledgeable. Why else conceal his his identity 

He's Bran's monster... so what does that mean?

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18 hours ago, LynnS said:

He's Bran's monster... so what does that mean?

Ultimately, we are all our own monsters, aren't we?

If Coldhands is an earlier (the first?) Bran Stark, and you probably recall my theories about Bran's vision of the sacrifice, it could fit.

 

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3 hours ago, alienarea said:

Ultimately, we are all our own monsters, aren't we?

If Coldhands is an earlier (the first?) Bran Stark, and you probably recall my theories about Bran's vision of the sacrifice, it could fit.

 

I do.   Any other possibilities you can think of?  I keep going back to the list of Kings Beyond the Wall, maybe even the Horned Lord since he is the only one not named.  .A Stark who isn't locked in the crypts?

 

Quote

 

Joramun, the legendary first King-Beyond-the-Wall,[5] was a contemporary of the Night's King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Together with the King of Winter Brandon the Breaker they defeated the Night's King. Another story tells of how he found the Horn of Winter and woke the giants.

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings some three thousand years ago. They made a tunnel under the Wall and invaded the north. Gorne managed to slay the Stark king but was killed by his son and heir. According to the people of the north Gendel and the remaining wildling army were killed by the armies of the Starks, the Night's Watch, and the Umbers. In the free folk stories, Gendel led his people back to the tunnels, but they could not find the exit. His children and descendents are said to still live underground, and are always hungry.

The Horned Lord is said to have used magic to pass the Wall a thousand years after Gendel and Gorne.[2]

I wonder if all kings beyond the wall are also called Horned Lords? Mance was digging in the Frost Fangs.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon VI

"Jon was using the word in its older sense, I think," Maester Aemon said, "not as a family name but as a title. It derives from the Old Tongue."

"It means lord," Jon agreed. "Styr is the Magnar of some place called Thenn, in the far north of the Frostfangs. He has a hundred of his own men, and a score of raiders who know the Gift almost as well as we do. Mance never found the horn, though, that's something. The Horn of Winter, that's what he was digging for up along the Milkwater."

Who made the horn of winter?  Was it the Magnars? A horned Lord of their tribe?  Someone who knew how to work bronze.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

Beneath the dragonglass was an old warhorn, made from an auroch's horn and banded in bronze. Jon shook the dirt from inside it, and a stream of arrowheads fell out. He let them fall, and pulled up a corner of the cloth the weapons had been wrapped in, rubbing it between his fingers. Good wool, thick, a double weave, damp but not rotted. It could not have been long in the ground. And it was dark. He seized a handful and pulled it close to the torch. Not dark. Black.

 

 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

Jon faced him. "If you've had the Horn of Joramun all along, why haven't you used it? Why bother building turtles and sending Thenns to kill us in our beds? If this horn is all the songs say, why not just sound it and be done?"

It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. "We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."

 

We know Joramun blew the horn and the Wall did not fall.  But something happened according to the Horned Lord's warning.  Which is probably why the horn was disabled.  

I'm of a mind that Coldhands had the horn or knew where it could be found, along with the dragonglass.

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do.   Any other possibilities you can think of?  I keep going back to the list of Kings Beyond the Wall, maybe even the Horned Lord since he is the only one not named. 

That of course would be complicated by Lord Eddard's characterisation of the young Trouserless Bob as the Horned God

Seriously though, I'm still of a mind to identify him with someone more recent, who needs to conceal his identity, though not necessarily from Bran

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That of course would be complicated by Lord Eddard's characterisation of the young Trouserless Bob as the Horned God

Seriously though, I'm still of a mind to identify him with someone more recent, who needs to conceal his identity, though not necessarily from Bran

OK.  If not from Bran; then from Sam or some other man of the NW?

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20 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Seriously though, I'm still of a mind to identify him with someone more recent, who needs to conceal his identity, though not necessarily from Bran

Give us a hint. :D

- a man of the NW

- killed long ago

- someone who is identifiable, but not necessarily by Bran.

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54 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Beyond Benjen there are no specific clues, beyond the fact that he's trying to conceal his identity, which wouldn't be necessary if he died before the Scooby Gang were alive 

I've seen a suggestion that he covers his throat and mouth to hide the injury that killed him from Bran.  The rattle in his voice is perhaps a clue.   If his throat was cut in a kind of sacrifice; we already know Bran's reaction from his weirwood travels.  Seeing such an injury would be cause for questions about who did what and when.

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25 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Beyond Benjen there are no specific clues, beyond the fact that he's trying to conceal his identity, which wouldn't be necessary if he died before the Scooby Gang were alive 

Another possibility is that he conceals his identity because he is ashamed of himself, i.e. something he did, and doesn't want to be recognized by anyone. That could also be his reason for helping Bran and friends.

In my understanding he's either  Bran Stark, the Night's King or the last hero.

Of course, these three might be one and the same (GRRM catholic upbringing reflected in another trinity).

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25 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Another possibility is that he conceals his identity because he is ashamed of himself, i.e. something he did, and doesn't want to be recognized by anyone. That could also be his reason for helping Bran and friends.

In my understanding he's either  Bran Stark, the Night's King or the last hero.

Of course, these three might be one and the same (GRRM catholic upbringing reflected in another trinity).

I wonder about the sacrifices made at the grove of nine trees; if they were men of the NW who were sacrificed and the oath is made to them, as much as it is to the old gods.  In other words, the spirits of the men who were sacrificed, hold the men to account, if they don't keep their vows.  Something Coldhands does to the traitorous NW.  

I'm reminded that Sam must also take an oath to Coldhands.

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On 6/4/2022 at 1:53 AM, alienarea said:

Ultimately, we are all our own monsters, aren't we?

If Coldhands is an earlier (the first?) Bran Stark, and you probably recall my theories about Bran's vision of the sacrifice, it could fit.

 

Or--if Coldhands is the one who threw down the NIght's King. He would then be a monster to that first Brandon Stark.

On 6/3/2022 at 7:38 AM, LynnS said:

He's Bran's monster... so what does that mean?

He's the one who took down the first Brandon Stark?

And, per your point that the NIght's King is playing out again--what if, like Jon, the Brother who threw down the Night's King also underwent a transformation (assuming Jon is reanimated--which seems like a good bet)? If so, he could have been "monsterized" prior to "The Battle for the Dawn."

A hint at where the story is going with Jon?

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've seen a suggestion that he covers his throat and mouth to hide the injury that killed him from Bran.  The rattle in his voice is perhaps a clue.   If his throat was cut in a kind of sacrifice; we already know Bran's reaction from his weirwood travels.  Seeing such an injury would be cause for questions about who did what and when.

This--I don't see why he couldn't be hiding monstrosity vs. just identity.

UnCat and Beric are horrifying. Coldhands--could be hiding the worst of his monstrosity.

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder about the sacrifices made at the grove of nine trees; if they were men of the NW who were sacrificed and the oath is made to them, as much as it is to the old gods.  In other words, the spirits of the men who were sacrificed, hold the men to account, if they don't keep their vows.  Something Coldhands does to the traitorous NW.  

I'm reminded that Sam must also take an oath to Coldhands.

Would clearly be echoes in the horror of the 79 Sentinels.

And would fit with my idea that Coldhands is the one who threw the Night's King down.

Maybe.

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