Heresy 242 The Other Starks

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Would clearly be echoes in the horror of the 79 Sentinels.

And would fit with my idea that Coldhands is the one who threw the Night's King down.

Maybe.

Hello Sly Wren!  Monsterized is a great word.  I do wonder if CH is contemporary with the NK.  I only question how far back in the history of the Wall and the Watch those events occurred.  I think it was around the time the Andals arrived at the Wall rather than when the Wall was originally built.  

It was Brandon the Breaker and Joramun who overthrew the NK.  If history is repeating with Jon; I wonder if he will be raised like CH.  I think we are getting elements of the same story but retold in a different manner since we don't know much about the NK.  I think it would be interesting if Jon encounters CH and this is the way we learn about those events.  

At the moment, that info could also come from Bran or Melisandre.  Possibly even Val since the Wildlings remember what everyone else has forgotten.

Placing CH as a witness to the events of the NK would be far more interesting to me rather than someone who shows up and is never heard from again.  

One theory is that he is one of the Raven's Teeth and a friend of BR.  Maybe he's Jojen's counterpart since BR would go through the same weirwood paste ritual to wed him to the tree.  That's if blood sacrifice is part of the ritual.

There is the old tale that the NK was able to bind members of the NW to his will.  How was he able to do that?  With the Horn of Winter?  

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

So was the horn broken to free the men from bondage?  Were they the sacrifices made to the Others?  Made into Monsters?  It's interesting that it was only after the defeat of the NK that he was found to be sacrificing to the Others.  I assumed we were talking about his offspring, if that was even possible.  Perhaps it was his brothers in the NW who were sacrificed.

P.S. - I'm moving at the end of June and I'll be away until next Monday.  I'll try to pop in.

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Or--if Coldhands is the one who threw down the NIght's King. He would then be a monster to that first Brandon Stark.

He's the one who took down the first Brandon Stark?

And, per your point that the NIght's King is playing out again--what if, like Jon, the Brother who threw down the Night's King also underwent a transformation (assuming Jon is reanimated--which seems like a good bet)? If so, he could have been "monsterized" prior to "The Battle for the Dawn."

A hint at where the story is going with Jon?

This--I don't see why he couldn't be hiding monstrosity vs. just identity.

UnCat and Beric are horrifying. Coldhands--could be hiding the worst of his monstrosity.

Would clearly be echoes in the horror of the 79 Sentinels.

And would fit with my idea that Coldhands is the one who threw the Night's King down.

Maybe.

That is all possible, but if Coldhands were the one to have thrown down the Night's King, how did he end up on the wrong side of the wall? If he were the Stark of Winterfell who allied with Joramun, he should have been buried / undead south of the wall?

[Sly Wren]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hello Sly Wren! 

Hey!

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Monsterized is a great word. 

Language is meant to be played with!

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do wonder if CH is contemporary with the NK.  I only question how far back in the history of the Wall and the Watch those events occurred.  I think it was around the time the Andals arrived at the Wall rather than when the Wall was originally built.  

Well--this is getting into my crazy idea about the Night's King and the Black Gate--but I do wonder if the Wall more "grew" than was "built." So, has been growing in response to whatever the Night's King did and whatever his brothers did to throw him down.

Something is very, very wrong with the living Black Gate--and the Wall. I think Ygritte is more right than she knows that it's made of blood.

But if I'm anywhere in the ballpark of right, that would mean the Wall has been growing/building for a long while. Would include during the Andals.

ETA: Just realized I misread what your said so my answer is a bit nonsensical.

I do take your point that the NK Wall and Watch could have been later--I just doubt it due to the old gods, the apparent fears about the skin changers--really seems like the NK is a First Men kinda guy.

But I would;dn't be surprised if the Andals embellished it all--and if having Andal kings made it easier to hide the story of the NK. 

I'm pretty sure we'll never get a clear timeline.

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

It was Brandon the Breaker and Joramun who overthrew the NK.  If history is repeating with Jon; I wonder if he will be raised like CH.  I think we are getting elements of the same story but retold in a different manner since we don't know much about the NK.  I think it would be interesting if Jon encounters CH and this is the way we learn about those events.  

Agreed--though I have wondered is Brandon the Breaker and the Night's King were actually the same person. . . especially since it's the World Book maesters who name him as the one who overthrew the Night's King. . . 

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

At the moment, that info could also come from Bran or Melisandre.  Possibly even Val since the Wildlings remember what everyone else has forgotten.

Placing CH as a witness to the events of the NK would be far more interesting to me rather than someone who shows up and is never heard from again.  

Agreed--and would be more reliable. 

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

One theory is that he is one of the Raven's Teeth and a friend of BR.  Maybe he's Jojen's counterpart since BR would go through the same weirwood paste ritual to wed him to the tree.  That's if blood sacrifice is part of the ritual.

A fair theory. I just wonder what part of the story he'd be telling--that Jojen was necessary? Seems like we as readers could figure that out on our own. Could be CH is just a Zombie ex Machina--but I'm currently thinking he has more to tell us.

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is the old tale that the NK was able to bind members of the NW to his will.  How was he able to do that?  With the Horn of Winter?  

So was the horn broken to free the men from bondage?  Were they the sacrifices made to the Others?  Made into Monsters?  It's interesting that it was only after the defeat of the NK that he was found to be sacrificing to the Others.  I assumed we were talking about his offspring, if that was even possible.  Perhaps it was his brothers in the NW who were sacrificed.

Well--I'm still thinking the Horn was like the Oath: a man of the Watch calling on all the the powers of the earth: "I am the horn that wakes the sleepers"--and Jon does that in his dreams repeatedly when he goes into the crypts and wakes the Kings of Winter. I still think Jon is going to "be" the horn.

I'm currently thinking that the Horn of Joramun and all that--they are stories built up around "being" the Horn. Counterfeits/explanations. Sort of like I think there's a chance that Valyrian steel was an attempt to create at sword like Dawn. That would fit with the "evil" horn that gets blown at the Kingsmoot. An evil version of the unifying power set out in the Oath.

So, if the Horn is the person who wakes the sleepers, who is the shield, who is the sword (Dawn's coming!!!), etc.--then it would be a person who chose to engage all that who "freed" them.

That said, I think it was @Black Crow who posited that the men of the Watch "claimed" to be enslaved so they could get off the hook for their actions.

That said--I do think sacrifices were very likely on the menu. And I think the NK could have been sacrificed when he was thrown down (my current explanation for the gate).

Sacrifices must have happened, given all we've seen so far.

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

P.S. - I'm moving at the end of June and I'll be away until next Monday.  I'll try to pop in.

Good luck! Moving is always an epic journey!

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, alienarea said:

That is all possible, but if Coldhands were the one to have thrown down the Night's King, how did he end up on the wrong side of the wall? If he were the Stark of Winterfell who allied with Joramun, he should have been buried / undead south of the wall?

Well--if, like Stoneheart or Beric or (I think) Jon--he may not have been able to die without some kind of intervention. May have embraced his oath and kept living as a guardian.

If so, if he was like Jon, could see him being willing to stay alive until all the nightmare returned. A living sacrifice. 

Would fit with Leaf calling his death "long ago"--that would be long, even to Leaf.

Maybe.

[alienarea]

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--though I have wondered is Brandon the Breaker and the Night's King were actually the same person. . . especially since it's the World Book maesters who name him as the one who overthrew the Night's King. . . 

Doesn't Old Nan tell Bran that the Night's King was a Brandon Stark and mayhaps slept in the same bed as Bran? If this is true, than Brandon the Breaker has to be the Night's King, because having brothers both named Brandon doesn't make sense.

 

[Black Crow]

20 hours ago, alienarea said:

Doesn't Old Nan tell Bran that the Night's King was a Brandon Stark and mayhaps slept in the same bed as Bran? If this is true, than Brandon the Breaker has to be the Night's King, because having brothers both named Brandon doesn't make sense.

 

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

Thank you for providing the words from the book.

A few things that stand out after all those years:

1. "A Stark of Winterfell". Where there other Starks? Is Stark a title, we discussed this before. For example, if Stark is mayhaps the word for hero in the old tongue, then the last hero is the last stark, and founded house Stark after the CotF helped him?

2. As initially posted a few posts up, if Brandon Stark "the Breaker" threw down the Night's King, who was his brother, then the brother would not have been named Brandon, too.

3. This establishes Old Nan as an unreliable narrator. Which is fitting, as she is a very old woman.

Unrelated: the song about the rat cook is popular in the seven kingdoms, but songs about the last hero or the Others aren't. Maybe because this is only Northern lore?

[Matthew.]

I mean, it could have been a Walder Frey situation where naming your Stark son Brandon was very in vogue, especially if the Stark patriarch of the time had had more than one wife; it may also be the case that the Night's King was Brandon Snow.

[alienarea]

What about this:

The original long night is the conflict between Winterfell and the Barrow King. It's a long conflict, maybe initiated by the Barrow King, and some Northern kingdoms united (watchers on the walls) and fought back. Last hero survives with help of the CotF. Marries the daughter of the Barrow King and becomes the Night's King. He's Brandon the Breaker not for bringing down the Night's King, but breaking the sorcery with the help of Joramun. That establishes the wall and Brandon the Breaker as ruler of Winterfell. The wildlings including Joramun are people of the Barrow King. When Mance dug in the Frostfangs, he initiated the return.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

Thank you for providing the words from the book.

A few things that stand out after all those years:

1. "A Stark of Winterfell". Where there other Starks? Is Stark a title, we discussed this before. For example, if Stark is mayhaps the word for hero in the old tongue, then the last hero is the last stark, and founded house Stark after the CotF helped him?

We discussed this years ago. I think that it should be taken exactly as told by Old Nan.

The Night's King was a Stark of Winterfell, and he was taken down by his brother - who then succeeded him as lord of Winterfell. That then makes perfect sense both anent what happened and what has followed. 

[alienarea]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We discussed this years ago. I think that it should be taken exactly as told by Old Nan.

The Night's King was a Stark of Winterfell, and he was taken down by his brother - who then succeeded him as lord of Winterfell. That then makes perfect sense both anent what happened and what has followed. 

I know we discussed it years ago. After the release of ADwD, so no new evidence, unfortunately.

However, perception changes over time. I don't believe we are going to read about ice spiders.

The tales told by Old Nan happened a long time before she was born. They may have some truth, but they certainly have changed over time.

Family stories change from great grandmother to grandmother to mother without bad intentions, and when this happens over many generations the details have usually been adjusted to tell a better story.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

The tales told by Old Nan happened a long time before she was born. They may have some truth, but they certainly have changed over time.

Family stories change from great grandmother to grandmother to mother without bad intentions, and when this happens over many generations the details have usually been adjusted to tell a better story.

Details do indeed change. Its in the very nature of story-telling, but nevertheless the core of this particular story makes sense:

The Stark of Winterfell was the Nights King and was allied to the old powers in the forest, but then he was overthrown by his brother, who became Stark of Winterfell in his place and stopped the sacrifices and so fears that Winter will return.

The Boltons ? They were ever followers of Winterfell, but when the Starks changed they remembered the old Winterfell allegiances 

 

 

 

[alienarea]

On 6/9/2022 at 12:20 PM, Black Crow said:

Details do indeed change. Its in the very nature of story-telling, but nevertheless the core of this particular story makes sense:

The Stark of Winterfell was the Nights King and was allied to the old powers in the forest, but then he was overthrown by his brother, who became Stark of Winterfell in his place and stopped the sacrifices and so fears that Winter will return.

The Boltons ? They were ever followers of Winterfell, but when the Starks changed they remembered the old Winterfell allegiances 

 

 

 

What stuck out to me when I read your post was that you associate the Night's King with the powers of old, in my understanding the CotF. His sorceries would then be greenseeing like Bran.

Which fits with Bran becoming king in the end - Night's King 2.0.

If you believed this were to have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

[Black Crow]

Oh I've no illusions about a happy ending. Rather as I see it there are two opposed forces one represented by the cuddly elves in the woods and the other by those mighty dragons. Humans are stuck in the middle or try to align themselves with one or the other. The Starks of Winterfell once raised their banners for the woodlanders, but then declared for independence. Now, with the Red lot and their beasties rising, the Starks are faced with a choice. Do they cleave to the old allegiances or try to maintain their independence - and because the family has been scattered they are likely to make their choices individually and perhaps in opposition to each other.

[LynnS]

Well the niece graduated basic training for the military yesterday.  I'm expecting everyone back today sometime.  Flights have been delayed once again.  I've been looking after the dogs this week.  I have to chase the little one twice a day for her medication.  They treat me like I'm their butler.  Let me out, let me in, feed me and is that all you're giving me?

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well the niece graduated basic training for the military yesterday.  I'm expecting everyone back today sometime.  Flights have been delayed once again.  I've been looking after the dogs this week.  I have to chase the little one twice a day for her medication.  They treat me like I'm their butler.  Let me out, let me in, feed me and is that all you're giving me?

That's dogs. 

Or Starks :p

 

[LynnS]

Found treasure!

https://bluewinterroses.com/brandon-starks-daughters

[alienarea]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Found treasure!

https://bluewinterroses.com/brandon-starks-daughters

Interesting aspects for sure, but for my taste they get carried away with bear ancestry.

Transposing the Mormont "bear ancestry" to House Stark leads to "wolf ancestry", which was supposedly touched in the not published "She-Wolves of Winterfell".

This is what Sansa has been set up for from the beginning. Queen training in Winterfell, King's Landing, and the Vale. Snowflake communion. Slaying a giant. Rebuilding a castle.

She'll pick a "wolf lover" as royal consort and continue House Stark.

Finally, throwing a curve ball: Mayhaps the Pale Queen of the  Others was looking for some "bear ancestry" herself, picking the Night's King as a consort?

The Other Starks ;)

[LynnS]

On 6/6/2022 at 4:17 PM, Sly Wren said:

Well--this is getting into my crazy idea about the Night's King and the Black Gate--but I do wonder if the Wall more "grew" than was "built." So, has been growing in response to whatever the Night's King did and whatever his brothers did to throw him down.

Something is very, very wrong with the living Black Gate--and the Wall. I think Ygritte is more right than she knows that it's made of blood.

But if I'm anywhere in the ballpark of right, that would mean the Wall has been growing/building for a long while. Would include during the Andals.

Can you refresh my memory on your ideas about the Night King and the Black Gate?  I've reached the age where stuff falls out of your head and I can't remember the connection.

I tend to think of the Black Gate as a ghost face hung on a wall reminiscent of the faces in the House of Black and White.  I also think it can only manifest during a certain phase of the moon which might explain why Sam is not sure he can find it again.

It's connected to a weirwood somewhere since the trees act as portals or doorways:

Quote

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past." ADWD - Bran III

The Black Gate is literally a doorway but is it a memory of the past?  I doubt the rock opens up; so it must be glamored and warded.  As to the identity of the ghost face, how does the Night King end up as the Gatekeeper?

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Interesting aspects for sure, but for my taste they get carried away with bear ancestry.

Transposing the Mormont "bear ancestry" to House Stark leads to "wolf ancestry", which was supposedly touched in the not published "She-Wolves of Winterfell".

This is what Sansa has been set up for from the beginning. Queen training in Winterfell, King's Landing, and the Vale. Snowflake communion. Slaying a giant. Rebuilding a castle.

She'll pick a "wolf lover" as royal consort and continue House Stark.

Finally, throwing a curve ball: Mayhaps the Pale Queen of the  Others was looking for some "bear ancestry" herself, picking the Night's King as a consort?

The Other Starks

What came to mind for me was Craster.  The bear and ram skull at the gate of his keep.  And what the women there are up to there.  Seems like bear ancestry to me.