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Heresy 242 The Other Starks


Black Crow

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

What came to mind for me was Craster.  The bear and ram skull at the gate of his keep.  And what the women there are up to there.  Seems like bear ancestry to me.

I get your point.

But is it always bear ancestry regardless of your family totem or is it bear ancestry for the Mormonts, wolf ancestry for the Starks ... and blood of the dragon for the Targaryens?

Whatever, in my understanding it wouldn't imply bastard daughters of Brandon Stark continuing House Stark but Sansa or Arya producing a male heir with a consort.

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

I get your point.

But is it always bear ancestry regardless of your family totem or is it bear ancestry for the Mormonts, wolf ancestry for the Starks ... and blood of the dragon for the Targaryens?

Whatever, in my understanding it wouldn't imply bastard daughters of Brandon Stark continuing House Stark but Sansa or Arya producing a male heir with a consort.

Its as you suggest and remember that in the story of Bael and the Lord Stark's daughter, her son became the next Lord Stark

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On 6/12/2022 at 1:54 PM, Black Crow said:

Its as you suggest and remember that in the story of Bael and the Lord Stark's daughter, her son became the next Lord Stark

Robb may have legitimized Jon in his will, so he too could become a Lord Stark.

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14 hours ago, LongRider said:

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

At this point in time I believe that ASoIaF is done and GRRM left a lot in the balance so everyone can create his/her own ending.

And because there was money to be made he sold DnD the rights to create their ending.

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18 hours ago, LongRider said:

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

He did indeed, and I reckon that could usefully form the starting topic for Heresy 243 because it all depends on how you want to interpret it

In conventional stories, death means exactly that. The character in question, having been killed off, might turn up later in flashback, but otherwise that's it. He or she is out.

In the case of Jon, GRRM's remark could be interpreted in one of two ways

He is not dead, but he is grievously wounded. This will require a rescue of some kind and may require some magical  intervention of some kind before he eventually returns - but to what purpose?

Alternatively. His human body has indeed been killed, but because death aint what it used to be in Westeros, Jon will not die in the conventional sense, but will continue as a character.

I'm moving these days to the latter, but as we're close to the end of 242, I'm inclined to leave the arguments remporarily, unless people want to move directly to 243

 

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm moving these days to the latter, but as we're close to the end of 242, I'm inclined to leave the arguments remporarily, unless people want to move directly to 243

That's ok with me.

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Sure.  I'm getting ready to move, so I'm pretty busy for a few weeks.

On that subject. GRRM poses thar question in the Prologue of GoT:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

"Do the dead frighten you?" Ser Waymar Royce asked with just the hint of a smile.

Gared did not rise to the bait. He was an old man, past fifty, and he had seen the lordlings come and go. "Dead is dead," he said. "We have no business with the dead."

"Are they dead?" Royce asked softly. "What proof have we?"

 If a corpse gets up and moves around; is it dead?

Bones carry the memories of the soul:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Prophet

That man is dead. Aeron had drowned and been reborn from the sea, the god's own prophet. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could . . . nor memories, the bones of the soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again. It did not matter. He was the Damphair priest, beloved of the god.

The bones carry a part of the soul that rembers how to move, perhaps to see and hear:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

The hooded man lifted his pale moon face, and Jon slashed at it without hesitation. The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning. Jon knew that face. Othor, he thought, reeling back. Gods, he's dead, he's dead, I saw him dead.

He felt something scrabble at his ankle. Black fingers clawed at his calf. The arm was crawling up his leg, ripping at wool and flesh. Shouting with revulsion, Jon pried the fingers off his leg with the point of his sword and flipped the thing away.

The corpse lurched forward. There was no blood. One-armed, face cut near in half, it seemed to feel nothing. Jon held the longsword before him. "Stay away!" he commanded, his voice gone shrill. "Corn," screamed the raven, "corn, corn." The severed arm was wriggling out of its torn sleeve, a pale snake with a black five-fingered head. Ghost pounced and got it between his teeth. Finger bones crunched. Jon hacked at the corpse's neck, felt the steel bite deep and hard.

Dead Othor slammed into him, knocking him off his feet.

The severed hand eventually remembers that it's dead on the way to Kingslanding.  GRRM seems to be playing with the notion that there are different aspects of the soul; one of which is body memory.  There doesn't seem to be any actual self-directed thought with the ice wights.  They are directed by something or someone.  The Others not only take your eyes; they use them to see and direct the wights.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

 

In Jon's case, a part of his soul, the rational thinking part will be housed by Ghost for a time. His body will have it's own memories which could be activated one way or another.     

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14 hours ago, alienarea said:

Off topic: picked up some rumors about a potential tv spin-off series featuring our favorite commander of the Nightswatch.

It's over.

Someone's incredibly stupid idea to sink the franchise? Or an unsubstantiated rumor taking on a life of it's own? 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Someone's incredibly stupid idea to sink the franchise? Or an unsubstantiated rumor taking on a life of it's own? 

A couple of online magazines reported it, I guess that means there is some substance to it. Kit Harrington's career is also not taking off, that's how these things get born. 

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3 hours ago, alienarea said:

A couple of online magazines reported it, I guess that means there is some substance to it. Kit Harrington's career is also not taking off, that's how these things get born. 

My response to the whole idea is Ugh! It's something James Hibberd got wind of and reported for his magazine. It will now get picked up by everybody else.  Other than that, there doesn't seem to be much substance to it besides someone floating it as an idea.  And what a stupid idea at that.  They wouldn't go ahead with Blood Moon but they'll concoct some crap about Jon post season eight of  Game of Thrones?  It's ludicrous.

 

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10 hours ago, LynnS said:

My response to the whole idea is Ugh! It's something James Hibberd got wind of and reported for his magazine. It will now get picked up by everybody else.  Other than that, there doesn't seem to be much substance to it besides someone floating it as an idea.  And what a stupid idea at that.  They wouldn't go ahead with Blood Moon but they'll concoct some crap about Jon post season eight of  Game of Thrones?  It's ludicrous.

 

It's not about quality or content but profit.

Apparently the Disney spin-offs of Star Wars are doing well, so the will create mini-series titled 'The Lord Commander', 'A Girl', 'The Imp', ...

I guess they would not think about it without having obtained the rights. Which leads me to the conclusion that GRRM sold everything and we will not get another book.

Which is fine, everyone needs to earn money, but be please be honest about it. 

I guess TWoW will be released when the sun rises in the West.

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14 hours ago, alienarea said:

Apparently the Disney spin-offs of Star Wars are doing well, so the will create mini-series titled 'The Lord Commander', 'A Girl', 'The Imp', ...

The yet to be told. scouring of the Shire, kind of thing.

12 hours ago, LongRider said:

Didn’t Ghost just get disappeared in the show?  So, JON SNOW, SEARCH FOR GHOST.  Sounds like a winner to me.    :dunno:

Yes, what happened to Ghost?  Does GRRM plan to kill him off in the next book? Perhaps this is why he disappeared on the show, without an explanation. Sort of like Jon being raised from the dead, in the show; but we are not quite sure how. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The yet to be told. scouring of the Shire, kind of thing.

Yes, what happened to Ghost?  Does GRRM plan to kill him off in the next book? Perhaps this is why he disappeared on the show, without an explanation. Sort of like Jon being raised from the dead, in the show; but we are not quite sure how. 

Daenery wore some white fur at some point in time.

My understanding of the lack of wolves on the tv show is that the scenes were expensive (a mix of upscaled footage of real wolves and computer generated graphics) and less spectacular than dragons. 

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IIRC, Jon and Ghost are together with what remains of the Free Folk in the final scene; I can't recall whether we were supposed to interpret that as the new Watch, or Jon deserting and heading north to live as a wildling.

Either way, a sequel series is already a bad idea, but a sequel series centered on one of the more boring characters, who is living in one of the most desolate and politically inactive regions of Westeros is just really strange.

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Look at the possibilities!  Introduction of new characters, like Val and Lady Stoneheart*, and ignored characters like Dolorous Edd.  Some screen writers can write all sorts of stuff, they did it for the first series, this one should be no problem.  Will it have an audience?  Well at first, after that, who knows.

 

*LS didn't show up in the Riverlands like she should of, so why not behind the Wall?

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4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Either way, a sequel series is already a bad idea, but a sequel series centered on one of the more boring characters, who is living in one of the most desolate and politically inactive regions of Westeros is just really strange.

It's not something I can get too excited about.  The writers can pretty much do whatever they want with it.

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