Random Thoughts About ASOIAF

[SeanF]

37 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Where’d you find that out?

A friend who’s very good at geography worked it out, on the basis that the Wall is 300 miles long.

[The Bard of Banefort]

57 minutes ago, SeanF said:

A friend who’s very good at geography worked it out, on the basis that the Wall is 300 miles long.

Does he know how long it should take to travel from, say, Winterfell to King’s Landing? Because everyone seems to move way too fast in ASOIAF.

[James Arryn]

11 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Does he know how long it should take to travel from, say, Winterfell to King’s Landing? Because everyone seems to move way too fast in ASOIAF.

I think the issue is that GRRM thought in American scale in numbers but in ~British scale in practicalities. (And Western Europe in flavour/culture).

Edited April 7, 2022 by James Arryn

[The Bard of Banefort]

29 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I think the issue is that GRRM thought in American scale in numbers but in ~British scale in practicalities. (And Western Europe in flavour/culture).

One really interesting thing about Westeros is that the geography is basically the same as North America, just molded to resemble Britain. There’s the North (Canada and Alaska), Vale (northeast), King’s Landing (Washington D.C.), Stormlands (the Carolinas), and Dorne (Texas and Mexico). All the way on the other side of the country are the Westerlands (California —> gold rush), and then there’s the Riverlands (Great Lakes) between the North and Reach (heartland —> bread basket). The only thing missing are the Iron Islands. Maybe they could be attributed to the Aleutian Islands, but they’re arguably colder than the Iron Islands. I’m curious if this was all unconscious on George’s part.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The only thing missing are the Iron Islands.

Haida Gwaii

[HoodedCrow]

Texas is not a bastion of independent thought.

[The Bard of Banefort]

49 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Texas is not a bastion of independent thought.

Oh, I don’t know. There seem to be plenty of headstrong Texas women out there  

[HoodedCrow]

The headstrong women will be investigated.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One really interesting thing about Westeros is that the geography is basically the same as North America, just molded to resemble Britain. There’s the North (Canada and Alaska), Vale (northeast), King’s Landing (Washington D.C.), Stormlands (the Carolinas), and Dorne (Texas and Mexico). All the way on the other side of the country are the Westerlands (California —> gold rush), and then there’s the Riverlands (Great Lakes) between the North and Reach (heartland —> bread basket). The only thing missing are the Iron Islands. Maybe they could be attributed to the Aleutian Islands, but they’re arguably colder than the Iron Islands. I’m curious if this was all unconscious on George’s part.

Word!

I thought of Canada and Alaska as more a beyond the wall type, being not America (except for Alaska, and North America being "America") and huge. The North, being the first settlers (except for the indigenous) is kinda like New England, being the first settlers (again aside from the indigenous, and the Spanish and Virginians but for some reason we don't talk about that) and being kinda rigid and stern (think "WASPS" or Starks), plus it's mad cold there. The Vale I'd put for Virginia and Maryland, historically they were a pompous bunch and dictated the countries polices for years but now they kinda fell back, plus mountains. Stormland is totally Carolina, like it's always raining there lol. Dorne as Texas isnt bad, though I was thinking Florida ( which uh also isn't known for being a bastion of independent thought) just mainly because of oranges, but both Texas and Florida are pretty diverse just like Dorne. Definitely agree with the rest, Riverlands is Ohio/Illinois/Wisconsin area, Reach is Kansas like and Westernlands gotta be Cali.

IronIslands are, Hawaii? Lol

But you left out a kingdom, and my favorite state 

Dragonstone, truly a bastion of independent thought, although not on the continent and with a different origin story with it's sister kingdoms it was still part of the Westerosi nation on day 1 (looking at you FL/TX). A little east, off shore from the continent, is an island whose architecture is synemonous with Westeros, it's marvel skyscrapers rival the greats of Castelry Rock (Goldengate) or the Red Keep in KL (white house). Truly, the Empire State. Uh, kingdom 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Hugorfonics

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Does he know how long it should take to travel from, say, Winterfell to King’s Landing? Because everyone seems to move way too fast in ASOIAF.

It’s about 1,500 miles from Kings Landing to Winterfell, and Cersei said it took them a month.  Which is much too fast for a convoy of wagons.  15 miles a day would be more realistic.  A party of horsemen with remounts could do 50 miles a day.  

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word!

I thought of Canada and Alaska as more a beyond the wall type, being not America (except for Alaska, and North America being "America") and huge. The North, being the first settlers (except for the indigenous) is kinda like New England, being the first settlers (again aside from the indigenous, and the Spanish and Virginians but for some reason we don't talk about that) and being kinda rigid and stern (think "WASPS" or Starks), plus it's mad cold there. The Vale I'd put for Virginia and Maryland, historically they were a pompous bunch and dictated the countries polices for years but now they kinda fell back, plus mountains. Stormland is totally Carolina, like it's always raining there lol. Dorne as Texas isnt bad, though I was thinking Florida ( which uh also isn't known for being a bastion of independent thought) just mainly because of oranges, but both Texas and Florida are pretty diverse just like Dorne. Definitely agree with the rest, Riverlands is Ohio/Illinois/Wisconsin area, Reach is Kansas like and Westernlands gotta be Cali.

IronIslands are, Hawaii? Lol

But you left out a kingdom, and my favorite state 

Dragonstone, truly a bastion of independent thought, although not on the continent and with a different origin story with it's sister kingdoms it was still part of the Westerosi nation on day 1 (looking at you FL/TX). A little east, off shore from the continent, is an island whose architecture is synemonous with Westeros, it's marvel skyscrapers rival the greats of Castelry Rock (Goldengate) or the Red Keep in KL (white house). Truly, the Empire State. Uh, kingdom 

Under Rhaena Targaryen, Dragonstone was more like Hebden Bridge.

[The Young Maester]

I remember reading somewhere that George suffers from the same thing other North American authors do. They make their fantasy worlds too big.

This is because the US and Canada have a culture in which you use your car for going almost anywhere. And leads to authors like George to misinterpret how long it would actually take to walk somewhere.

Compare this to Tolkien who lived in Britain for most of his life, and would go on long walks. This gave him a picture of actually how big our world is and how much space their is. Hence middle earth being allot more realistic in size and travel time.

And if we’re being honest, just by looking at grrm I can tell he isnt the type that goes for long walks.

[The Bard of Banefort]

17 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I remember reading somewhere that George suffers from the same thing other North American authors do. They make their fantasy worlds too big.

This is because the US and Canada have a culture in which you use your car for going almost anywhere. And leads to authors like George to misinterpret how long it would actually take to walk somewhere.

Compare this to Tolkien who lived in Britain for most of his life, and would go on long walks. This gave him a picture of actually how big our world is and how much space their is. Hence middle earth being allot more realistic in size and travel time.

And if we’re being honest, just by looking at grrm I can tell he isnt the type that goes for long walks.

 

4 minutes ago, Crazy Old Guy said:

^ This poster means that Germ is fat.

Hey, Stephen King goes for long walks and he ended up getting hit by a van. Better safe than sorry.

[SeanF]

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I remember reading somewhere that George suffers from the same thing other North American authors do. They make their fantasy worlds too big.

This is because the US and Canada have a culture in which you use your car for going almost anywhere. And leads to authors like George to misinterpret how long it would actually take to walk somewhere.

Compare this to Tolkien who lived in Britain for most of his life, and would go on long walks. This gave him a picture of actually how big our world is and how much space their is. Hence middle earth being allot more realistic in size and travel time.

And if we’re being honest, just by looking at grrm I can tell he isnt the type that goes for long walks.

Also, Tolkien’s background as a soldier shows up in how long his armies take to move around, and their logistics.  

[Nadden]

Waymar’s and the Other’s swords

 

According to Craster, in ACOK a Jon chapter 23, Waymar’s Sword was black steel.

 

Quote

“Aye, those three I recall. The lordling no older than one of these pups. Too proud to sleep under my roof, him in his sable cloak and black steel. My wives give him big cow eyes all the same.” He turned his squint on the nearest of the women. “Gared says they were chasing raiders. I told him, with a commander that green, best not catch ’em. Gared wasn’t half-bad, for a crow. Had less ears than me, that one. The ’bite took ’em, same as mine.” Craster laughed. “Now I hear he got no head neither. The ’bite do that too?”

 

And it was became “white with frost” during Waymar’s dance with the Other’s sword, AGOT Prologue.

 

Quote

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

 

The Other’s sword was a pale translucent shard of crystal that was alive with moonlight and it shimmered and danced with a faint blue ghost-light.  AGOT, Prologue

 

Quote

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

And the Other’s sword would have been covered in Waymar’s blood.

 

Quote

Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

 

 

Note that the droplets only “seemed red as fire”. That’s because of the Purkinje effect. The effect describes why reds will appear darker relative to other colors as light levels decrease, i.e. moonlight. For this reason Waymar’s blood would appear black on the blade of the Other’s sword.

 

So we have two swords,

One black sword (Waymar’s sword) with the blade half white.

One white sword (Other’s sword) with the blade half black.

 

Picture those two swords meeting. Perfect contract! Interesting??

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Does he know how long it should take to travel from, say, Winterfell to King’s Landing? Because everyone seems to move way too fast in ASOIAF.

This is something ive noticed between GRRM and Tolkien. There is an interview with Tolkien in which he say's he made his maps first, stating that it would be a mess to write the book and create a map after. Something George did. I can see Tolkiens logic as with a map and language set first, writing mustve become much easier. 

For instance. Tolkien pulled from a lot of real world stuff with the Myrkwood being a real mythic place located near Ukraine. The Shire being in England and Mordor being where the Black Sea is and Gondor being roughly the Greeks .As the Gondorians are connected to the Atlantis myth/ Numenor. Numenor likely being pulled from Numitor, one of Romulus and Remus ancestors. With Rome having ties to the Greeks, but Italy and Spain being cut from Tolkiens map likely cause he hated the Latin influence that ruined Old English, which he loved. Plus it simplifies the story, especially not having the Mediterranean sea trade routes.

Now, that all being said. Frodo's journey to Mordor is roughly equivalent to a holy pilgrimage to Jerusalem or a crusade. So his journey is roughly 10-12 miles a day at a years travel. 

Another example is how the Rohirrim come from the North near Dale and is reflected in their linguistics. With people from Dale and The Lonely Mountain having Norse names, while the Rohirrim have names similar to Old English. Like Eowynn, Eomer, Theoden, Hama, and Halfdan. The Distance between these two lands is changed from history though, with the Rohirrim being roughly in the lands that the Goths would've been. Though you do have Theodoric among the Goths, and his name is similar to Theoden. 

 

Martin, working as a gardener, has gardened himself into a few rabbit holes. Though he some how manages to hold a large part of it together, likely through the aid of Elio and Linda. Or else we would have horses changing sex ocnstantly and peoples eye colors constantly changing. Something they pointed out to him before.

With all these other narratives (Yiti, Dunk and Egg, Fire and Blood 2, and i can't remember what all else), I worry about not just ASOIAF, but of those stories as well. I could see the Dunk and Egg show passing his books just like ASOIAF did. 

As an aspiring writer, its something I try to avoid by taking the time to build my world, maps, languages, and history before completing the main story. Or else id be in the same pickle as George or worse, as im no gardener and couldn't wing it like him.

[AlaskanSandman]

Random thought brought on by another thread dealing with somewhat sexual topics (transgender people). Had me thinking, you know what, id actually enjoy it if Martin stayed away from sex all together. Romance, love, and sex do not seem to be GRRM's strong suite in writing. The descriptions given during his sex scenes have me wondering where George's head is at when hes having sex. A penthouse story or Daniel Steele is more erotic that reading about Tyrions strangely bulbous member, or Roberts course hair in comparison to Jamies. More often or not, sex in Asoiaf just gives me the creeps.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This is something ive noticed between GRRM and Tolkien. There is an interview with Tolkien in which he say's he made his maps first, stating that it would be a mess to write the book and create a map after. Something George did. I can see Tolkiens logic as with a map and language set first, writing mustve become much easier. 

For instance. Tolkien pulled from a lot of real world stuff with the Myrkwood being a real mythic place located near Ukraine. The Shire being in England and Mordor being where the Black Sea is and Gondor being roughly the Greeks .As the Gondorians are connected to the Atlantis myth/ Numenor. Numenor likely being pulled from Numitor, one of Romulus and Remus ancestors. With Rome having ties to the Greeks, but Italy and Spain being cut from Tolkiens map likely cause he hated the Latin influence that ruined Old English, which he loved. Plus it simplifies the story, especially not having the Mediterranean sea trade routes.

Now, that all being said. Frodo's journey to Mordor is roughly equivalent to a holy pilgrimage to Jerusalem or a crusade. So his journey is roughly 10-12 miles a day at a years travel. 

Another example is how the Rohirrim come from the North near Dale and is reflected in their linguistics. With people from Dale and The Lonely Mountain having Norse names, while the Rohirrim have names similar to Old English. Like Eowynn, Eomer, Theoden, Hama, and Halfdan. The Distance between these two lands is changed from history though, with the Rohirrim being roughly in the lands that the Goths would've been. Though you do have Theodoric among the Goths, and his name is similar to Theoden. 

 

Martin, working as a gardener, has gardened himself into a few rabbit holes. Though he some how manages to hold a large part of it together, likely through the aid of Elio and Linda. Or else we would have horses changing sex ocnstantly and peoples eye colors constantly changing. Something they pointed out to him before.

With all these other narratives (Yiti, Dunk and Egg, Fire and Blood 2, and i can't remember what all else), I worry about not just ASOIAF, but of those stories as well. I could see the Dunk and Egg show passing his books just like ASOIAF did. 

As an aspiring writer, its something I try to avoid by taking the time to build my world, maps, languages, and history before completing the main story. Or else id be in the same pickle as George or worse, as im no gardener and couldn't wing it like him.

Fortunately, you don’t need to invent new languages, and only Tolkien ever cared about linguistic consistency.  People write articles in Quenya and Sindarin, but it took a kind of mad genius to create these.

But logistics and distances matter to a tale.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Fortunately, you don’t need to invent new languages, and only Tolkien ever cared about linguistic consistency.  People write articles in Quenya and Sindarin, but it took a kind of mad genius to create these.

But logistics and distances matter to a tale.

Agreed. And yes, Tolkien is given over credit for his languages as many verbs are missing to actually have a functioning language. Though it can add something to have conlangs I think. It just depends on what you are going for and trying to say with them. Im not so into creating conlangs just for the sake of creating them. Klingon i can understand as its an alien race, but creating fake languages with different human groups just to have them isn't something I would go for. 

The map issue is definitely the more important of the world building, i would agree. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Romance, love, and sex do not seem to be GRRM's strong suite in writing.

He said in an interview that he wants readers to feel horny when he describes a love scene just like they feel hungry when he describes a feast. I'm definitely not an expert when it comes to that stuff, but I don't think it has the effect he intended.